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Immaculate Conception and Isaiah the Prophet

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  • Lamb's Servant
    replied
    Originally posted by Howie View Post
    All sinned in Adam (Rom 5:12).
    But does "all" mean all? Let's take a look at a few examples:
    Romans 15:14
    “I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to instruct one another.”

    I thought that only God was all knowledgeable.

    Luke 2:1
    “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.”

    Did he collect taxes from Australia also?

    We see that "all" does not mean "all" even from a biblical standpoint. If that is the case then the Catholic doctrine of being sinless still holds.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lamb's Servant
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeT View Post

    Cities in antiquity were thought of as young virgin women. Similar to the way we identify ships in terms of feminine pronouns today. Many cities are still thought of in terms of feminine pronouns. The city of Jerusalem was called the daughter of Zion. Israel then was referred to as the “daughters” of Zion. The following are examples: 4 Kings 19:21; Psalms 9:14; Isaias 1:8; 10:32; 16:1; 37:22; 52:2; 62:11 Jer 4:31 Jeremias 6:2; 23; Lamentations 1:6; 2:1; 2:4; 2:8; 2:10; 2:13; 2:18; 4:22; Micheas 1:13; 4:8; 4:10; 4:13 Sophonias 3:14; Zacharias 2:10; 9:9; 8:19; 2:7. Sometimes you'll find it shortened to simply "daughter."

    In the King James bible you’ll read “daughter of Zion” in the DRV you’ll read “daughter of Zion” or “daughter of Jerusalem”. The understanding in antiquity was that cities were personalized as young virgin woman, or simply feminine pronouns. The word “woman” then was used metaphorically or in a spiritual sense to be an entire people of Israel, e.g., "Hearken, O daughter, and see, and incline thy ear: and forget thy people and thy father's house." [Psalms 44:11]

    We see this stand out most prominently in John’s Gospel in the words “Woman, what is that to me and to thee.” Here we see the “woman” representing Israel or Jerusalem as the daughter of Zion, the Old Testament religion of Judaism. Jesus said that His “hour is not yet come.” The implication being she has no authority to speak in His name just yet. But that she will speak when His “hour” has come. And we search and search through all the ministries of Christ till last, His hour comes. And from that hour on Mary becomes the image and mother of our Church, “Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own." [John 19:27] The New Testament, new dispensation, is handed over to the Church in the person of St. John. Jesus hands over (paradidômi in Greek: to give over into (one's) power or use) the New Israel the Catholic Church, His soul. [Cf. John 19:30]. The “HOUR” had come for Mary to take on the role as Mother of the Church.

    The hour has come; "Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye." And Jesus said "do this in commemoration of me".

    JoeT
    Yes. Totally agree. Good post.

    Leave a comment:


  • tester
    replied
    Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

    tester wrote,



    But you insinuated as much.



    1. Basically, what you are saying, is that you want an infallible interpretation from the Catholic Church concerning those verses.
    2. If you want an "authoritative Catholic source" then I have already provided one - the Scriptures.
    you have interpreted what i posted incorrectly
    I am asking YOU to back up YOUR personal interpretation of Scripture with an authoritative Catholic source.

    Leave a comment:


  • JoeT
    replied
    Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post
    As you are aware, today is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. This dogma states that Blessed Mary was conceived without original sin. In the Book of Genesis we read the following,

    16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.(Gen. 3:16 KVJ).

    This was carried out in response to what Eve did in the garden and it is the result of original sin. Now, if the Blessed Mother was conceived without original sin, as the Catholic Church teaches, then would it not make sense that she should be spared from this punishment that was given to women? Is there anything, from Scripture, that would point to this? The answer is, yes. In Isaiah 66:7-8 we read the following,

    7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

    8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

    In verse 7 we see that the woman did not have labor pains and she delivered a "man child." Given the other prophecies that Isaiah made concerning Our Lord, it can only be said that this "man child" is none other than Our Lord Jesus. If that is the case then this "man child's" mother would be none other than the Blessed Mother. Since the woman, in Isaiah's prophecy, did not have labor pains then she must have not fallen under the punishment due to original sin. If that is the case then this woman must not have had original sin. This can only mean that this is a round-a-bout prophecy concerning the Immaculate Conception.
    Cities in antiquity were thought of as young virgin women. Similar to the way we identify ships in terms of feminine pronouns today. Many cities are still thought of in terms of feminine pronouns. The city of Jerusalem was called the daughter of Zion. Israel then was referred to as the “daughters” of Zion. The following are examples: 4 Kings 19:21; Psalms 9:14; Isaias 1:8; 10:32; 16:1; 37:22; 52:2; 62:11 Jer 4:31 Jeremias 6:2; 23; Lamentations 1:6; 2:1; 2:4; 2:8; 2:10; 2:13; 2:18; 4:22; Micheas 1:13; 4:8; 4:10; 4:13 Sophonias 3:14; Zacharias 2:10; 9:9; 8:19; 2:7. Sometimes you'll find it shortened to simply "daughter."

    In the King James bible you’ll read “daughter of Zion” in the DRV you’ll read “daughter of Zion” or “daughter of Jerusalem”. The understanding in antiquity was that cities were personalized as young virgin woman, or simply feminine pronouns. The word “woman” then was used metaphorically or in a spiritual sense to be an entire people of Israel, e.g., "Hearken, O daughter, and see, and incline thy ear: and forget thy people and thy father's house." [Psalms 44:11]

    We see this stand out most prominently in John’s Gospel in the words “Woman, what is that to me and to thee.” Here we see the “woman” representing Israel or Jerusalem as the daughter of Zion, the Old Testament religion of Judaism. Jesus said that His “hour is not yet come.” The implication being she has no authority to speak in His name just yet. But that she will speak when His “hour” has come. And we search and search through all the ministries of Christ till last, His hour comes. And from that hour on Mary becomes the image and mother of our Church, “Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own." [John 19:27] The New Testament, new dispensation, is handed over to the Church in the person of St. John. Jesus hands over (paradidômi in Greek: to give over into (one's) power or use) the New Israel the Catholic Church, His soul. [Cf. John 19:30]. The “HOUR” had come for Mary to take on the role as Mother of the Church.

    The hour has come; "Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye." And Jesus said "do this in commemoration of me".

    JoeT
    Last edited by JoeT; 12-09-18, 12:40 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howie
    replied
    Originally posted by Lamb's Servant View Post

    Conceived without original sin, no. Born without original sin, yes. It is not a doctrine of the Church so one is free to believe that John the Baptist was born in original sin or not. Personally, I believe that he was not born with original sin.
    https://www.osv.com/OSVNewsweekly/St...e-Baptist.aspx
    All sinned in Adam (Rom 5:12).

    Leave a comment:

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