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Works based salvation?

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  • Originally posted by 4Him View Post


    So, does the Catholic church teach we are saved by faith and works, which is a works based salvation? Yay or nay?
    All I can say to those who think they have enough works to be saved is "Thank God you are not like other men."

    Luke 18:10-11. That is the way a Pharisee talks about themselves and all Pharisees are welcome to it.

    Jesus said He came to save sinners and NOT the Righteous as many think they are.

    JohnR

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

      Sheep are by nature helpless animals ...that is why they were sent out as sheep among wolves .....
      That is why they need to be as shrewd as serpents.

      Shrewd sheep, cool.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

        Joh 6:39And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”


        Salvation by faith in Christ and eternal security
        Paul provides this warning against complacency:

        You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Romans 11:19-21

        The natural branches that were broken off refers to Jews who did not believe. Christians, those who were grafted in, can face the same fate if they do not remain faithful.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

          Paul provides this warning against complacency:

          You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Romans 11:19-21

          The natural branches that were broken off refers to Jews who did not believe. Christians, those who were grafted in, can face the same fate if they do not remain faithful.
          Were the natural branches broken off because they never believed or because they stopped believing?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Johan View Post

            Were the natural branches broken off because they never believed or because they stopped believing?
            I think that the issue is that while the people of Israel accepted the Old Testament teachings, many rejected Christ. Things can change based on their actions:

            And even those of Israel, if they do not persist in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. Romans 11:23

            More importantly gentile Christians who were grafted in can be broken off if they do not remain faithful. A similar theme appears in the Gospel of John:

            I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit . . .If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:1-6

            I don't see how to reconcile these verses with the doctrine of "once saved always saved".
            Last edited by Theophilos; 02-12-19, 09:10 AM.

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            • Originally posted by 4Him View Post


              This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
              Thank you for that scripture.

              There are two things I see there in that scriptures, two wills. One will of the Father is that Jesus not loose anything the Father has given him. The second will involves believing in the Father and the Son, which Jesus has called the "work of God". (John 6:29) So work is envolved. The Church calls the "Liturgy of the Hours" the "work of God" (Latin: Opus Dei).

              1175 The Liturgy of the Hours is intended to become the prayer of the whole People of God. In it Christ himself "continues his priestly work through his Church."50 His members participate according to their own place in the Church and the circumstances of their lives: priests devoted to the pastoral ministry, because they are called to remain diligent in prayer and the service of the word; religious, by the charism of their consecrated lives; all the faithful as much as possible: "Pastors of souls should see to it that the principal hours, especially Vespers, are celebrated in common in church on Sundays and on the more solemn feasts. The laity, too, are encouraged to recite the divine office, either with the priests, or among themselves, or even individually."51

              CCC
              Last edited by Only_3; 02-12-19, 09:54 AM.
              Mass shootings are like abortions. The shooting could happen anywhere, just as the life of the unborn could be terminated anywhere, at any abortion clinic.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Only_3 View Post

                Thank you for that scripture.

                There are two things I see there in that scriptures, two wills. One will of the Father is that Jesus not loose anything the Father has given him. The second will involves believing in the Father and the Son, which Jesus has called the "work of God". (John 6:29) So work is envolved. The Church calls the "Liturgy of the Hours" the "work of God" (Latin: Opus Dei).

                1175 The Liturgy of the Hours is intended to become the prayer of the whole People of God. In it Christ himself "continues his priestly work through his Church."50 His members participate according to their own place in the Church and the circumstances of their lives: priests devoted to the pastoral ministry, because they are called to remain diligent in prayer and the service of the word; religious, by the charism of their consecrated lives; all the faithful as much as possible: "Pastors of souls should see to it that the principal hours, especially Vespers, are celebrated in common in church on Sundays and on the more solemn feasts. The laity, too, are encouraged to recite the divine office, either with the priests, or among themselves, or even individually."51

                CCC
                He shall lose nothing. His sheep shall never perish.

                Believe=faith.

                For it by grace you have been saved, through faith....not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

                Fairh is is a gift. Faith saves via your own post.
                ~~~My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My Father's hand~~~

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

                  Paul provides this warning against complacency:

                  You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Romans 11:19-21

                  The natural branches that were broken off refers to Jews who did not believe. Christians, those who were grafted in, can face the same fate if they do not remain faithful.
                  Does the scripture say that or is that your assumption?

                  Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Johan View Post

                    Were the natural branches broken off because they never believed or because they stopped believing?
                    More likely stopped believing and remember that the Jews represent the tribe of Judah but the Jews sometimes is spoken for all the tribes of Israel including the dispersed among the Gentiles who lost their tribal identity.

                    The fact is that most of the church are converted Isralel and do not know it thinking they are Gentile Christians but have they learned form their past? Are they in apostasy and do not know the voice of God and are unteachable.

                    Let us examine our walk in Christ and be open to the Holy Spirit to teach us and stop being filled with foolish pride thinking we are spiritual when we are not!

                    God bless you,

                    SeventhDay

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Johan View Post

                      Were the natural branches broken off because they never believed or because they stopped believing?
                      The natural branches refers to the Jews. Some of those natural branches were broken off because of unbelief. (Romans 11:11; cf. vs. 20)
                      Mass shootings are like abortions. The shooting could happen anywhere, just as the life of the unborn could be terminated anywhere, at any abortion clinic.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Only_3 View Post

                        Thank you for that scripture.

                        There are two things I see there in that scriptures, two wills. One will of the Father is that Jesus not loose anything the Father has given him. The second will involves believing in the Father and the Son, which Jesus has called the "work of God". (John 6:29) So work is envolved. The Church calls the "Liturgy of the Hours" the "work of God" (Latin: Opus Dei).
                        Its also interesting that what Jesus calls a work, believing is also called a gift/favor in Phil 1:29

                        Phil 1:29
                        29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, NASB

                        Belief has been granted. The word for granted means favor. Again, God does this. Every time catholics try to pin works on salvation it falls apart. Its all Him, not us.
                        Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

                          Its also interesting that what Jesus calls a work, believing is also called a gift/favor in Phil 1:29

                          Phil 1:29
                          29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, NASB

                          Belief has been granted. The word for granted means favor. Again, God does this. Every time catholics try to pin works on salvation it falls apart. Its all Him, not us.
                          As has already been pointed out here before, belief and works go hand in hand.

                          English Standard Version
                          “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

                          What works have you been assigned to do?
                          Mass shootings are like abortions. The shooting could happen anywhere, just as the life of the unborn could be terminated anywhere, at any abortion clinic.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Only_3 View Post

                            As has already been pointed out here before, belief and works go hand in hand.

                            English Standard Version
                            “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

                            What works have you been assigned to do?
                            Works do play a part, but not in salvation. This has been stated more times than i can count. Read Eph 2:10, once we are born again THEN we begin our labor for Him. Not for salvation but for reward.
                            Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

                              Works do play a part, but not in salvation. This has been stated more times than i can count. Read Eph 2:10, once we are born again THEN we begin our labor for Him. Not for salvation but for reward.
                              Scripture alone doesn't say that works do not play a part in salvation. In fact is says just the opposite.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." Jim Elliot

                              "There is no pit so deep that God's love is not deeper still." Betsy ten Boom

                              "God in His deepest mystery is not a solitude, but a family, since He has in Himself fatherhood, sonship, and the essence of the family, which is love." John Paul II

                              ’Then Mary said, ‘Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.’ One of the greatest responses in all of scripture.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rldlolbeding View Post

                                Scripture alone doesn't say that works do not play a part in salvation. In fact is says just the opposite.
                                What part do works play in salvation? Are your works salvific? If so, how?
                                ~~~My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My Father's hand~~~

                                Comment

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