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Works based salvation?

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  • 4Him
    started a topic Works based salvation?

    Works based salvation?

    Originally posted by De Maria View Post

    Yes. Because we are saved by faith AND works.

    So, does the Catholic church teach we are saved by faith and works, which is a works based salvation? Yay or nay?

  • Calsgal
    replied
    Originally posted by Raynebeau View Post

    And, just as with the other Roman Catholic sacraments, they initially make you feel better - but have little to no effect on the behavior of the recipient.
    It is a "sacrament" of the dead because the recipient is dead in trespasses and sin ...

    Q. 594. Why are Baptism and Penance called Sacraments of the dead?

    A. Baptism and Penance are called Sacraments of the dead because they take away sin, [b]which is the death of the soul,[b] and give grace, which is its life.


    Dead is dead


    Leave a comment:


  • Mailmandan
    replied
    Originally posted by rldlolbeding View Post

    The CC has never taught that our works saves us which is consistent with scripture. But to teach that a person is saved by faith alone is not consistent with scripture - there is nowhere in scripture alone that says a person is saved by faith alone.
    The CC teaches salvation by faith and works. The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

    You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. *Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. *So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

    *Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" -- barren of works (James 2:14)

    Leave a comment:


  • Raynebeau
    replied
    Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

    Sure it is one can "fall away " that why they call confession a "sacrament of the dead"
    And, just as with the other Roman Catholic sacraments, they initially make you feel better - but have little to no effect on the behavior of the recipient.

    Leave a comment:


  • By His Mercy
    replied
    Originally posted by mica View Post
    catholics never put it all together. if they did, they'd leave the RCC.
    No response to Bible passages that challenge evangelical beliefs. Of course.

    -BHM

    Leave a comment:


  • mica
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeT View Post

    It is God's Word, how is it propaganda?JoeT
    perverted by the RCC.


    Leave a comment:


  • By His Mercy
    replied
    Originally posted by Calsgal View Post


    Said no Catholic catechism ever ....you are just believing what you want to believe ..
    I was citing the Bible. Yes, I believe the Bible is true, so I want to believe what the Bible says. And I do.

    -BHM

    Leave a comment:


  • rldlolbeding
    replied
    Originally posted by Mailmandan View Post
    Romans 4:2-3 is not merely limited to specific works and Paul NOWHERE says that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works. Did Paul say that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1? NO. Did Paul say that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9? NO. *Elsewhere, Paul said that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. *Also, in 2 Timothy 1:9, he said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works.. So we are not saved by works in general. I already proved my argument by properly harmonizing scripture with scripture.

    Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). *Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

    When I said "keep in mind" it does not mean that I was interjecting my ideas into the conversation. No need for your straw man arguments. I am absolutely a Trinitarian. I see no evangelical disharmony, only Roman Catholic smoke and mirrors.
    The CC has never taught that our works saves us which is consistent with scripture. But to teach that a person is saved by faith alone is not consistent with scripture - there is nowhere in scripture alone that says a person is saved by faith alone.

    Leave a comment:


  • UnionofGrace&Nature
    replied
    Originally posted by Mailmandan View Post
    Romans 4:2-3 is not merely limited to specific works and Paul NOWHERE says that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works.
    Apostle James says that we are justified by works and not by Sola Fide (James 2:24). You need to harmonize James 2:24 before you can claim any semblance of "Perfect Harmony".

    Did Paul say that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1? NO. Did Paul say that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9? NO. *Elsewhere, Paul said that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. *Also, in 2 Timothy 1:9, he said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works.. So we are not saved by works in general. I already proved my argument by properly harmonizing scripture with scripture.

    Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).
    Context, context, context. Paul is addressing former Gentiles in Ephesians. Their former works were pagan works which do not qualify as do the justifying works of James 2:24.

    Throughout Titus, Paul is listing out many good works that should be done as opposed to self-righteous works. No Sola Fide here.

    2 Tim 2:9 tells that we are called "according to His own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the eternal times." That means that we should accomplish the purposes of what God preordained for each one of us, and not what we think we should be doing. Paul lists them out for Timothy in Chapters 2 to 3. No Sola Fide here.

    *Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*
    Salvation is conditional. No effort/work of Repenting -> No Salvation. No Sola Fide here.

    It is through faith "in Christ alone"
    We are saved also through the Holy Spirit that indwells us. You are Trinitarian after all.

    (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24;
    I agree that we are saved by God's Grace alone. No Sola Fide here.

    5:1; 5:9);
    You need to read the entire Book of Romans for deeds/efforts/work/obligations/behavior to be mentioned. Considering only bits and pieces of it causes great disharmony.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
    Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die. But if you through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
    Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    Rom 8:17 And if we are children, then we are heirs; heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ; so that if we suffer with Him, we may also be glorified together.
    Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed in us.
    Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness, and the severity of God; on those having fallen, severity; but on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
    Also Rom 12:1 to 15:7.

    Conclusion: No Sola Fide here.

    yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
    Why do you skip over verses like:

    James 2:14 My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him?
    James 2:17 Even so, if it does not have works, faith is dead, being by itself.
    James 2:20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    James 2:22 Do you see how faith worked with his works, and from the works faith was made complete?
    James 2:24 You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
    James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Conclusion: Definitely no Sola Fide here.

    When I said "keep in mind" it does not mean that I was interjecting my ideas into the conversation. No need for your straw man arguments. I am absolutely a Trinitarian. I see no evangelical disharmony, only Roman Catholic smoke and mirrors.
    Don't fall into your Overlord's trap of reciting only bits and pieces of the Bible. Read entire books and you will see past your Overlords' propaganda and great disharmony.
    Last edited by UnionofGrace&Nature; 04-08-19, 09:42 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • JoeT
    replied
    Originally posted by Mailmandan View Post
    Joe Mizzi is currently a member of a Reformed Baptist Church, but is a former Roman Catholic - http://www.justforcatholics.org/about.htm. So, you want me to take the consider an apostate instead of the Church?

    I am also a former Roman Catholic so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening . . .
    That sad.

    JoeT

    Leave a comment:


  • Mailmandan
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeT View Post
    Dr. Joe Mizzi is of the Reformed Baptist church, he is not Catholic. He operates a site which proselytizes by misinforming people of what Catholicism is. He, probably like yourself, who thinks that Catholics are uninformed ***** who are brain washed..
    Joe Mizzi is currently a member of a Reformed Baptist Church, but is a former Roman Catholic - http://www.justforcatholics.org/about.htm.

    I am also a former Roman Catholic so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening and Roman Catholics are misinformed and even brain washed is a good way of putting it.

    Leave a comment:


  • mica
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeT View Post
    In all actuality you're misinformed.

    Catholics have no issue with Ephesians 2:8 saying "grace you are saved through faith" for several reasons. We believe there is a prevenient faith we receive unmeritorious. Furthermore, the nature of any "grace" is that it is a "gift" of a merciful God.

    Trent Session IV canon, says, "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema." [can.xxiv]. Justification does not come to us 'perfected' in the Baptism or in the Protestant formula of saying "I believe".
    Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, [Prevenient = God's grace going before with spiritual guidance and help], through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God. [Trent Session VI, v]
    Justification or justifying is movement from one state of not being right with God to righteousness..

    For man to have God's justice, it implies rectitude of the will to the will of God. It is the interior movement from carnal desires to the desires of God. Hence, Justification is a movement of body and soul. There is no movement without the free-will else, it is God that moves and man remains rectified to his own will.
    Now justification means a motion to justice, just as whitening means a motion to whiteness, though justification could also signify the formal effect of justice; for justice justifies in the same way as whiteness makes white. [St. Thomas Aquinas, Question, 28, 1]
    Justification is a concept where “sin is removed and justice is introduced, the movement from unjust to just. Justice is used three ways, as a virtue, as a legal term signifying a declaration of making an act aright in a court of law, and justice designates a state of being 'right with God'.


    Dr. Joe Mizzi is of the Reformed Baptist church, he is not Catholic. He operates a site which proselytizes by misinforming people of what Catholicism is. He, probably like yourself, who thinks that Catholics are uninformed ***** who are brain washed. The analogy of 're-justifying' is totally wrong. For one it is a process from being unjust to just and usually without a perfect righteousness until after death. For another reason, to be 're-justified' would be to literally re-crucify Christ.
    what would be the unusual cause of a perfect righteousness?

    Leave a comment:


  • JoeT
    replied
    Originally posted by Mailmandan View Post
    Actually, that Catholic is wrong.
    In all actuality you're misinformed.

    I once heard a preacher describe the Roman Catholic interpretation of Ephesians 2:8 as saved by grace through faith "infused" with works and those works become meritorious towards receiving eternal life, which sounds like what the Council of Trent said in Canon 24 - If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema. I've noticed that Roman Catholics confuse justification with the process of ongoing sanctification and the end result is works righteousness.
    Catholics have no issue with Ephesians 2:8 saying "grace you are saved through faith" for several reasons. We believe there is a prevenient faith we receive unmeritorious. Furthermore, the nature of any "grace" is that it is a "gift" of a merciful God.

    Trent Session IV canon, says, "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema." [can.xxiv]. Justification does not come to us 'perfected' in the Baptism or in the Protestant formula of saying "I believe".
    Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, [Prevenient = God's grace going before with spiritual guidance and help], through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God. [Trent Session VI, v]
    Justification or justifying is movement from one state of not being right with God to righteousness..

    For man to have God's justice, it implies rectitude of the will to the will of God. It is the interior movement from carnal desires to the desires of God. Hence, Justification is a movement of body and soul. There is no movement without the free-will else, it is God that moves and man remains rectified to his own will.
    Now justification means a motion to justice, just as whitening means a motion to whiteness, though justification could also signify the formal effect of justice; for justice justifies in the same way as whiteness makes white. [St. Thomas Aquinas, Question, 28, 1]
    Justification is a concept where “sin is removed and justice is introduced, the movement from unjust to just. Justice is used three ways, as a virtue, as a legal term signifying a declaration of making an act aright in a court of law, and justice designates a state of being 'right with God'.

    As Joe Mizzi pointed out - Official Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake only. Something more is required. You must keep yourself justified by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is Rome's salvation by works! - http://www.justforcatholics.org/a14.htm
    Dr. Joe Mizzi is of the Reformed Baptist church, he is not Catholic. He operates a site which proselytizes by misinforming people of what Catholicism is. He, probably like yourself, who thinks that Catholics are uninformed ***** who are brain washed. The analogy of 're-justifying' is totally wrong. For one it is a process from being unjust to just and usually without a perfect righteousness until after death. For another reason, to be 're-justified' would be to literally re-crucify Christ.


    JoeT






    Leave a comment:


  • Calsgal
    replied
    Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
    Please answer my question that I asked you earlier: What do evangelicals have Faith in?
    We have faith the work and promise of Christ..

    What do Catholics have faith in?
    What do you believe that the work and promise of Christ is?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mailmandan
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeT View Post

    Your Catholic friend is right. There can be a thing called 'grace alone', but faith, fidelity, calls man to a process of perfection of justice in both works and faith.
    Actually, that Catholic is wrong. I once heard a preacher describe the Roman Catholic interpretation of Ephesians 2:8 as saved by grace through faith "infused" with works and those works become meritorious towards receiving eternal life, which sounds like what the Council of Trent said in Canon 24 - If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema. I've noticed that Roman Catholics confuse justification with the process of ongoing sanctification and the end result is works righteousness.

    As Joe Mizzi pointed out - Official Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake only. Something more is required. You must keep yourself justified by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is Rome's salvation by works! - http://www.justforcatholics.org/a14.htm

    Leave a comment:

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