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Is it possible to use Scripture TOO much in debates?

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  • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

    And God speaks to us via His Word--the Scriptures, and in thesevlastvdaus, by His Son.
    Absolutely.

    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
    All the thing con my list comtradict Scripture. Yet, the CC teaches them as true. Which should I believe--the RCC or the Bible?
    What list? Did I miss it? I imagine that I would disagree with you that whatever you listed contradicts Scripture.
    "Whenever I'm asked why Southern writers ...[write] about freaks, I say it is because we are still able to recognize one." O'Connor

    Comment


    • Originally posted by illini1959 View Post

      Well then we'll leave it here.

      I only wanted to understand what you mean. I've given you things to think about, I've posted verses and given examples of people referring to scripture - even of Christ Himself.

      If you're unable, or unwilling, to clarify so I can hone my reply, that's fine.
      Illini, you've proven that Scripture is a valid source of doctrine, not that it is the ONLY source.

      That lack of proof on the part of Protestant believers is a key reason why Catholics reject the error of Sola Scriptura.
      "Whenever I'm asked why Southern writers ...[write] about freaks, I say it is because we are still able to recognize one." O'Connor

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

        “The tradition which comes from the apostles develops in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down. This happens through the contemplation and study made by believers, who treasure these things in their hearts, through a penetrating understanding of the spiritual realities which they experience, and through the preaching of those who have received through episcopal succession the sure gift of truth. For, as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her” (Dei Verbum 8).
        Thank you.

        Do you believe that the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople contributed to a better definition of, and understanding of, the doctrine of the Trinity?
        "Whenever I'm asked why Southern writers ...[write] about freaks, I say it is because we are still able to recognize one." O'Connor

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
          Is it possible to use Scripture TOO much in debates?
          Nope - since Scripture is the ONLY TRUSTWORTY SOURCE, then the more the better.

          Caviat: lots of people use Scripture in a corrupt, or erroneous fashion, and then INTERPRET IT in a corrupt, or erroneous fashion tho make it "say" what they WANT IT TO SAY, instead of what It really DOES say in proper context.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Rudder View Post

            (1) Where did I say "for my salvation"?

            (2) Please answer the question. Do you know what Natural Law is?
            You haven't answered my question yet. Here's what you said.
            Originally posted by Rudder View Post
            Numerous truths--truths related to God's creation, Natural Law (addressed previously), the history of the Church, science, etc. You name it.

            Again, on what grounds do you base your position that Scripture is the SOLE source of theological truth?
            What theological truth does natural law give us that's outside of scripture? Be specific.
            Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Rudder View Post

              Illini, you've proven that Scripture is a valid source of doctrine, not that it is the ONLY source.

              That lack of proof on the part of Protestant believers is a key reason why Catholics reject the error of Sola Scriptura.
              I don't believe it's for a lack of proof. Anyone who isn't blinded by the enemy can discern God's truths are found in His word.

              "I" haven't proven Scripture is a valid source of doctrine, His word speaks for itself.

              As much as we've gone back and forth, very civilly, I don't believe you've gone as far to support your position - which theological truths are found outside of His word?

              Or do you not want to go there?
              2 Corinthians 5:7 ~ for we walk by faith, not by sight

              Romans 10:9 ~ that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

              Comment


              • Originally posted by illini1959 View Post

                I don't believe it's for a lack of proof. Anyone who isn't blinded by the enemy can discern God's truths are found in His word.

                "I" haven't proven Scripture is a valid source of doctrine, His word speaks for itself.

                As much as we've gone back and forth, very civilly, I don't believe you've gone as far to support your position - which theological truths are found outside of His word?

                Or do you not want to go there?
                I'll answer. No, he doesn't want to go there. Make a claim, stir the pot then never backup said claim.
                Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                  Nope - since Scripture is the ONLY TRUSTWORTY SOURCE, then the more the better.

                  Caviat: lots of people use Scripture in a corrupt, or erroneous fashion, and then INTERPRET IT in a corrupt, or erroneous fashion tho make it "say" what they WANT IT TO SAY, instead of what It really DOES say in proper context.
                  The way Satan quoted Scripture, to tempt Jesus to sin. He quoted accurately, but he misused it. Jesus quoted MORE Scripture to disprove Satan's misuse of what He did quote.
                  Last edited by Bonnie; 05-15-19, 01:50 PM.
                  "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                  "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                  Its easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                  "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                  "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                  "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by illini1959 View Post
                    As much as we've gone back and forth, very civilly...
                    It HAS been a civil discussion and I thank you for that. That is a rare occurrence in these forums unfortunately.


                    Originally posted by illini1959 View Post
                    I don't believe it's for a lack of proof. Anyone who isn't blinded by the enemy can discern God's truths are found in His word.
                    You will not find a single post here where I have denied that "God's truths are found in His word". What I HAVE denied is that the Scriptures are the SOLE source of theological truth--which is YOUR proposition and which I submit that you have yet to prove. I have triple emphasized the key word in that proposition.

                    Originally posted by illini1959 View Post
                    ... I don't believe you've gone as far to support your position - which theological truths are found outside of His word?

                    Or do you not want to go there?
                    Why should I be put to prove this proposition when you haven't first proven that theological truth is LIMITED to the Scriptures?

                    In any event, I've given you one example--Natural Law. As you know, many religions and cultures outside of Judaism and Christianity hold to certain fundamental principles--such as murder and theft are wrong--yet, and this is key, these religions and cultures do not go to the Scriptures as their source of determining that murder and theft are wrong. Where do they go, then, to arrive at this conclusion? They might go to their own "holy books" or they might use reason to determine that such behavior is wrong. People who acknowledge the existence of Natural Law (and many don't acknowledge it) understand that those moral precepts are written on their hearts by God even though they might have NEVER have read or heard of the Old or New Testaments. Knowing fully well the irony in this context of citing you to Scripture to prove the point that Scripture is not the source of ALL theological truth, look again at Romans:

                    Romans 1 (emphasis added): "19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made." (RSV-CE).

                    Romans 2 (emphasis added): "14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." (RSV-CE).

                    So, as can be seen, even Scripture itself acknowledges both the existence of Natural Law and the fact that men--who have no knowledge whatsoever of the Scriptures--can and should perceive truths about God and human behavior based on (1) God's creation ("the things that have been made") and (2) their own hearts ("written on their hearts").
                    "Whenever I'm asked why Southern writers ...[write] about freaks, I say it is because we are still able to recognize one." O'Connor

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post

                      I'll answer. No, he doesn't want to go there. Make a claim, stir the pot then never backup said claim.
                      Demonstrably false, also ad hominem.
                      "Whenever I'm asked why Southern writers ...[write] about freaks, I say it is because we are still able to recognize one." O'Connor

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                        The way Satan quoted Scripture, to tempt Jesus to sin. He quoted accurately, but he misused it. Jesus quoted MORE Scripture to disprove Satan's misuse of what He did quote.
                        Nice example -

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Rudder View Post

                          Thank you.

                          Do you believe that the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople contributed to a better definition of, and understanding of, the doctrine of the Trinity?

                          If there is not progressive revelation.. why is infallibility necessary ?
                          Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Rudder View Post

                            You will not find a single post here where I have denied that "God's truths are found in His word". What I HAVE denied is that the Scriptures are the SOLE source of theological truth--which is YOUR proposition and which I submit that you have yet to prove. I have triple emphasized the key word in that proposition.
                            Its your belief that there is theological knowledge outside of scripture. Why is that anyone elses point to prove? Its your belief, you prove it. Scripture is what we have. Anything other than scripture is up to the person promoting the idea.

                            Why should I be put to prove this proposition when you haven't first proven that theological truth is LIMITED to the Scriptures?
                            Read Heb 1. God spoke in many ways. Today, its through His word, written word. If you think there is anything outside of His written word, thats on you to prove.

                            In any event, I've given you one example--Natural Law. As you know, many religions and cultures outside of Judaism and Christianity hold to certain fundamental principles--such as murder and theft are wrong--yet, and this is key, these religions and cultures do not go to the Scriptures as their source of determining that murder and theft are wrong.
                            Whats theological about natural law?
                            Where do they go, then, to arrive at this conclusion? They might go to their own "holy books" or they might use reason to determine that such behavior is wrong. People who acknowledge the existence of Natural Law (and many don't acknowledge it) understand that those moral precepts are written on their hearts by God even though they might have NEVER have read or heard of the Old or New Testaments. Knowing fully well the irony in this context of citing you to Scripture to prove the point that Scripture is not the source of ALL theological truth, look again at Romans:
                            You mean who comes to them. Read Romans 10. God sends missionaries out to tell people of the good news. The good news comes out of scripture, not the natural law.

                            Romans 1 (emphasis added): "19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made." (RSV-CE).

                            Romans 2 (emphasis added): "14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." (RSV-CE).

                            So, as can be seen, even Scripture itself acknowledges both the existence of Natural Law and the fact that men--who have no knowledge whatsoever of the Scriptures--can and should perceive truths about God and human behavior based on (1) God's creation ("the things that have been made") and (2) their own hearts ("written on their hearts").
                            All you've done is shot yourself in the foot. The bible speaks of natural law, which is the very thing you claim is outside of scripture! And you still haven't given any 'theological' truths that are outside of scripture. When can we see those?
                            Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Calsgal View Post


                              If there is not progressive revelation.. why is infallibility necessary ?
                              See CCC 889--"In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles..."

                              Again, to you, Do you believe that the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople contributed to a better definition of, and understanding of, the doctrine of the Trinity?
                              "Whenever I'm asked why Southern writers ...[write] about freaks, I say it is because we are still able to recognize one." O'Connor

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Nondenom40 View Post
                                Its your belief that there is theological knowledge outside of scripture. Why is that anyone elses point to prove? Its your belief, you prove it. Scripture is what we have. Anything other than scripture is up to the person promoting the idea.

                                Read Heb 1. God spoke in many ways. Today, its through His word, written word. If you think there is anything outside of His written word, thats on you to prove.



                                Whats theological about natural law?
                                You mean who comes to them. Read Romans 10. God sends missionaries out to tell people of the good news. The good news comes out of scripture, not the natural law.


                                All you've done is shot yourself in the foot. The bible speaks of natural law, which is the very thing you claim is outside of scripture! And you still haven't given any 'theological' truths that are outside of scripture. When can we see those?
                                Scripture itself points to theological truth that is found in sources outside of Scripture (see, e.g., Romans 1:19 and Romans 2:14, supra, post no. 205) and yet you deny that testimony because it does not conform to your Protestant belief in sola scriptura. Wow. I'm just not sure what else to say about that. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him take a bath.
                                "Whenever I'm asked why Southern writers ...[write] about freaks, I say it is because we are still able to recognize one." O'Connor

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