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Examples from the mysterious category of works that justify.

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  • Originally posted by mica View Post
    only by perverting scripture, which is what catholics do.

    there are no good works without faith in Him. faith comes before good works.
    1 Corinthians 13

    2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.


    if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. I don't have to change one letter let alone add two definitions for every word in the verse!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by utilyan View Post

      1 Corinthians 13

      2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.


      if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. I don't have to change one letter let alone add two definitions for every word in the verse!
      lol! catholics are the ones who redefine words. they have their own dictionary - as do Mormons.


      "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

      The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by utilyan View Post

        1 Corinthians 13

        2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.


        if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. I don't have to change one letter let alone add two definitions for every word in the verse!
        Loving God and loving your neighbor are works of the law.

        And we are justified by faith apart from works of the law
        One of the ekklēsia

        Comment


        • Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
          Here are countless more who worked righteousness by faith. Lots of works mentioned. No folded hands Sola Fide here:

          32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again.
          no one denies that the Saved do works of righteousness


          Focus!
          the question is NOT what works the Saved do;
          the question is: Is that what works saved them?

          Titus 3:5
          He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy,

          We are told we are not saved by works of righteousness
          we are told we are justified apart from the works of the law

          WHAT ELSE IS THERE?

          still waiting
          Last edited by tester; 06-11-19, 08:56 PM.
          One of the ekklēsia

          Comment


          • Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
            Exactly. That conclusively proves Synergism. Thank you.

            For one thing you must expend the effort to choose Christ as your Lord and Savior. That is salvific work #1. After that there are the sacraments: Baptism, Eucharist, Repentance, etc...
            Pssss if Christ hasn't chosen you ...you have no choice ......


            Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

            Comment


            • Originally posted by utilyan View Post

              Well lets look at what you missed.

              Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.

              The sole qualifying ingredient again is LOVE. I don't see the reason for the aversion of Love in the equation. Because if you could say love is there, there would be no debate. Instead we are told it is not present or unbiblical idea that faith creates love.


              You introduced two new definitions Faith is no longer faith but a fake faith, and justify is no longer justify its a fake justify.

              I asked you biblical verses to support those distinctions. You did not give any. Why is beyond me. Give us bible verses or admit FIRST you have none and we must rely on philosophy.


              secondly. Lets assume its a bad faith, can a PERFECT faith save you?

              James 2

              22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;


              Is a PERFECT FAITH a faith that you would consider JUSTIFIED by GOD?




              I doesn't matter if you redefine FAITH fifty more times, We are never going to back up a FAITH devoid of the love of God.

              If we smell even a whiff of love of God in what you call Faith we will give it a passing grade. So long as it is devoid of Love it is a utter failure.


              This is not a hard concept to grasp. Faith with Love = YES. FAITH without Love = NO.

              If you say "SAVING FAITH" and that equals WITHOUT LOVE, that is a NO. Saving faith = Faith without Love = NO.

              If you say SAVING FAITH = Faith with LOVE = YES.

              If you say Saving Faith = Faith without love, but it can make love = NO.


              There is one brick wall in your way that is LOVE. Faith devoid of Love = SIN Sin is not going to save you.


              You got two options to crack a catholic on this.

              1. Take a shot at Love convince us its not required in the equation of salvation. (Faith devoid of Love = SIN)

              2. Tell us your faith has LOVE in it.






              Trent is your gospel ... sorry
              Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

              Comment


              • Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post

                32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again.

                Through faith they worked righteousness. Lots of faithful works are mentioned through which they were made righteous. It doesn't say by faith alone they were made righteous. No Sola Fide to be seen here.
                Their "righteousness " did not birth their faith..
                Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                Comment


                • Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
                  1Th 1:3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father,
                  2Th 1:11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of the calling and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,

                  Faith and good works are intrinsically connected together.

                  Stop rewriting the Bible.
                  Just proving Catholics have no understanding when they read scripture.. They were preforming works because of their faith

                  1 The1:3We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

                  1 Thes 2:"14For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Judea that are in Christ Jesus. You suffered from your own countrymen the very things they suffered from the Jews, 15who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and drove us out as well. They are displeasing to God and hostile to all men, 16hindering us from telling the Gentiles how they may be saved. As a result, they continue to heap up their sins to full capacity; the utmost wrath has come upon them.
                  [indent]as your work of faith; by which is meant not the principle of faith, for as such that is God's work, the product of his grace, and the effect of his almighty power; but the operative virtue and exercise of it under the influence of the grace of God: the Vulgate Latin, Arabic, and Ethiopic versions render it, "the work of your faith"; and so some copies, and the Syriac version, "the works of your faith".https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gi...alonians/1.htm[/indent
                  Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 4Him View Post

                    We love Him because He first loved us.....we can only love God because of faith....

                    Love is the fruit of the Spirit.....

                    That doesn't negate that we are saved by grace through faith alone....

                    8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity
                    Dont confuse them with scriptural truths
                    Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by UnionofGrace&Nature View Post
                      Heb 11:4 not only implies that God testifies of our works but it also states it. Are you saying that Paul is ridiculous in doing so?

                      Heb 11:4 "By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts. And by it he, being dead, yet speaks."

                      No kidding, but we need to cooperate which is our good works.

                      Work of faith = work of faith. The idea of a folded hands Sola Fide crashes and burns.
                      I smell an ignorant Catholic straw man. What is "folded hands sola fide?"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post
                        Faith alone is in agreement with Catholic beliefs if "faith" means living faith.

                        That is stated in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification:

                        The teaching of the Lutheran churches presented in this Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration. . . faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works.
                        any faith catholics have is in the RCC and its teachings, not in Christ.

                        "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

                        The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Howie View Post
                          I smell an ignorant Catholic straw man. What is "folded hands sola fide?"
                          who knows? it must be part of the catholic imagination.

                          "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

                          The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

                            Trent is your gospel ... sorry
                            Sure sure sure... When you say Faith Alone it doesn't mean Faith Alone......... Gotcha.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by utilyan View Post

                              Well lets look at what you missed.

                              Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.

                              The sole qualifying ingredient again is LOVE. I don't see the reason for the aversion of Love in the equation. Because if you could say love is there, there would be no debate. Instead we are told it is not present or unbiblical idea that faith creates love.


                              You introduced two new definitions Faith is no longer faith but a fake faith, and justify is no longer justify its a fake justify.

                              I asked you biblical verses to support those distinctions. You did not give any. Why is beyond me. Give us bible verses or admit FIRST you have none and we must rely on philosophy.


                              secondly. Lets assume its a bad faith, can a PERFECT faith save you?

                              James 2

                              22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;


                              Is a PERFECT FAITH a faith that you would consider JUSTIFIED by GOD?




                              I doesn't matter if you redefine FAITH fifty more times, We are never going to back up a FAITH devoid of the love of God.

                              If we smell even a whiff of love of God in what you call Faith we will give it a passing grade. So long as it is devoid of Love it is a utter failure.


                              This is not a hard concept to grasp. Faith with Love = YES. FAITH without Love = NO.

                              If you say "SAVING FAITH" and that equals WITHOUT LOVE, that is a NO. Saving faith = Faith without Love = NO.

                              If you say SAVING FAITH = Faith with LOVE = YES.

                              If you say Saving Faith = Faith without love, but it can make love = NO.


                              There is one brick wall in your way that is LOVE. Faith devoid of Love = SIN Sin is not going to save you.


                              You got two options to crack a catholic on this.

                              1. Take a shot at Love convince us its not required in the equation of salvation. (Faith devoid of Love = SIN)

                              2. Tell us your faith has LOVE in it.

                              If you say "FAITH" and that is a Gift from God, that is a YES
                              SAVING Faith = Faith FROM God= YES

                              If you say FAITH = mental assent = NO
                              If you say Faith = Faith not from God ; the faith of demons; a useless faith; a dead faith = NO.


                              There is one brick wall in your way that is GOD Faith NOT from God = SIN Sin is not going to save you.


                              You got two options to crack a Protestant on this.

                              1. Take a shot at GOD convince us GOD is not required in the equation of salvation. (Faith not from GOD = SIN)

                              2. Tell us your dead useless, demon-like faith is a gift from God but still doesn't save
                              One of the ekklēsia

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

                                Trent is your gospel ... sorry
                                The lead apologist at CAF and EWTN contributor,
                                Jimmy says Luther was right and the Catholic Church was right:
                                but what is wrong is the Catholic understanding of what the Church taught
                                "So Trent does not condemn the (good) Protestant understanding of faith alone. In fact, the canon allows the formula to be used so long as it is not used so as to understand that nothing besides intellectual assent is required

                                The canon only condemns sola fide if it is used so as to understand that nothing else [besides intellectual assent] is required to attain justification. Thus Trent is only condemning one interpretation of the sola fides formula and not the formula itself.."

                                ...

                                If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, so as to understand that nothing else is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.
                                The reason this is not applicable to modern Protestants is that Protestants (at least the good ones) do not hold the view being condemned in this canon.

                                Like all Catholic documents of the period, it uses the term faith in the sense of intellectual belief in whatever God says.
                                Thus the position being condemned is the idea that we are justified by intellectual assent alone (as per James 2).

                                We might rephrase the canon:
                                If anyone says that the sinner is justified by intellectual assent alone, so as to understand that nothing besides intellectual assent is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.
                                after nearly 500 years of Catholic misunderstanding; I love the way Akin tells you Trent really meant .
                                thread here
                                https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/ch...ng#post5973481
                                One of the ekklēsia

                                Comment

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