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Roman Catholic Salvation

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  • Roman Catholic Salvation

    Is Roman Catholic teaching on salvation correct? I for one believe that if you follow OFFICIAL Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then you will go to hell.


    Heaven is God's reward for good works: "In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere 'to the end' and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ," (CCC 1821).

    Merit grace for ourselves: "Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification," (CCC 2010).

    Salvation through keeping the commandments: "The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; 28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord...the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments," (CCC 2068, http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2.htm).

    “The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 1257).

    “Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 846).

    “This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn,” (CCC 980).

    “The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation, (CCC 1129).

    Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation,” (CCC 1816).

    “The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law [i.e., 10 Commandments, CCC 2070], because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 2036)

    Detachment from riches is necessary for entering the Kingdom of heaven,” (CCC 2556).

    Summation: In Roman Catholicism that which is NECESSARY for salvation includes the church (CCC 846), baptism (CCC 1257), penance (CCC 980), sacraments (CCC 1129), service and witness to the faith (CCC 1816), keeping the ten commandments (CCC 2036 and 2070), and detachment from riches (CCC 2556).

    But, the Bible says...
    • Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
    • Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
    • Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;"
    • James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."
    • Gal. 3:10, "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
    Catholics need to repent and believe the true Gospel of Jesus which is faith in Christ's work on the cross alone and NOT adding any of your sin-stained efforts to either attain, maintain, or regain salvation.



  • #2
    You attempt to over complicate the Faith. The only thing necessary for salvation is to die in a state of sanctifying grace.

    Under Calvinism Christ did not die for all men but only for the just. Those condemned to h e l l could not help but sin, because they have no free will, but they are held accountable anyway, a cruel system indeed.
    "The Holy Roman Church condemns, rejects, anathematizes and declares to be outside the Body of Christ, which is the Church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views.” Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Mysterium Fidei View Post
      You attempt to over complicate the Faith. The only thing necessary for salvation is to die in a state of sanctifying grace.

      Under Calvinism Christ did not die for all men but only for the just. Those condemned to h e l l could not help but sin, because they have no free will, but they are held accountable anyway, a cruel system indeed.
      You just complicated it.

      Salvation is the free gift of God that has no caveats, no hoops to jump through, and He doesn't take it back.

      This is the Gospel -

      For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life John 3:16

      That's it.

      If the OP appears to "over complicate" things, it's because he's addressing catholic teaching vs scripture.

      3/4 of his post is catholic catechism.

      That's where the complication comes in.
      2 Corinthians 5:7 ~ for we walk by faith, not by sight

      Romans 10:9 ~ that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by illini1959 View Post

        you just complicated it.

        Salvation is the free gift of god that has no caveats, no hoops to jump through, and he doesn't take it back.

        This is the gospel -

        for god so loved the world, that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life john 3:16

        that's it.

        If the op appears to "over complicate" things, it's because he's addressing catholic teaching vs scripture.

        3/4 of his post is catholic catechism.

        That's where the complication comes in.
        exactly!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Matt Slick View Post
          Is Roman Catholic teaching on salvation correct? I for one believe that if you follow OFFICIAL Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then you will go to hell.


          Heaven is God's reward for good works: "In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere 'to the end' and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ," (CCC 1821).

          Merit grace for ourselves: "Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification," (CCC 2010).

          Salvation through keeping the commandments: "The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; 28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord...the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments," (CCC 2068, http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2.htm).

          “The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 1257).

          “Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 846).

          “This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn,” (CCC 980).

          “The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation, (CCC 1129).

          Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation,” (CCC 1816).

          “The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law [i.e., 10 Commandments, CCC 2070], because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 2036)

          Detachment from riches is necessary for entering the Kingdom of heaven,” (CCC 2556).

          Summation: In Roman Catholicism that which is NECESSARY for salvation includes the church (CCC 846), baptism (CCC 1257), penance (CCC 980), sacraments (CCC 1129), service and witness to the faith (CCC 1816), keeping the ten commandments (CCC 2036 and 2070), and detachment from riches (CCC 2556).

          But, the Bible says...
          • Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
          • Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
          • Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;"
          • James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."
          • Gal. 3:10, "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

          Catholics need to repent and believe the true Gospel of Jesus which is faith in Christ's work on the cross alone and NOT adding any of your sin-stained efforts to either attain, maintain, or regain salvation.

          Of course all of this is true to catholicism. However no one ever said it was consistent. In catholic teaching you don't even need to know Jesus to get to heaven. Invincible ignorance to the rescue...CCC 1260
          1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
          How does one 'do the will of God' without knowing God? Contradictions abound. But i will get my popcorn ready cuz this'll be a hoot!

          Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mysterium Fidei View Post
            You attempt to over complicate the Faith. The only thing necessary for salvation is to die in a state of sanctifying grace.

            Under Calvinism Christ did not die for all men but only for the just. Those condemned to h e l l could not help but sin, because they have no free will, but they are held accountable anyway, a cruel system indeed.
            He over complicated your faith by quoting your faith? Must not have a lot of faith in your faith. What exactly did he say that is untrue?
            Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Matt Slick View Post
              Is Roman Catholic teaching on salvation correct? I for one believe that if you follow OFFICIAL Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then you will go to hell.


              Heaven is God's reward for good works: "In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere 'to the end' and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ," (CCC 1821).

              Merit grace for ourselves: "Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification," (CCC 2010).

              Salvation through keeping the commandments: "The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; 28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord...the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments," (CCC 2068, http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2.htm).

              “The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 1257).

              “Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 846).

              “This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn,” (CCC 980).

              “The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation, (CCC 1129).

              Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation,” (CCC 1816).

              “The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law [i.e., 10 Commandments, CCC 2070], because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 2036)

              Detachment from riches is necessary for entering the Kingdom of heaven,” (CCC 2556).

              Summation: In Roman Catholicism that which is NECESSARY for salvation includes the church (CCC 846), baptism (CCC 1257), penance (CCC 980), sacraments (CCC 1129), service and witness to the faith (CCC 1816), keeping the ten commandments (CCC 2036 and 2070), and detachment from riches (CCC 2556).

              But, the Bible says...
              • Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
              • Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
              • Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;"
              • James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."
              • Gal. 3:10, "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
              Catholics need to repent and believe the true Gospel of Jesus which is faith in Christ's work on the cross alone and NOT adding any of your sin-stained efforts to either attain, maintain, or regain salvation.


              Council of Trent:
              1. If anyone says that man is justified before God by his own works (whether done through the teaching of human nature or the law) without the grace of God through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.
              2. If anyone says that the grace of God through Jesus Christ is given only that man may live justly and merit eternal life, as if by free will (without grace) he could do both, let him be anathema.
              3. If anyone says that without the inspiration and help of the Holy Ghost man can believe, hope, love or be penitent as he ought, so the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.



              "Is Roman Catholic teaching on salvation correct? I for one believe that if you follow OFFICIAL Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then you will go to hell."

              "Catholics need to repent and believe the true Gospel of Jesus which is faith in Christ's work on the cross alone and NOT adding any of your sin-stained efforts to either attain, maintain, or regain salvation."

              The first point of contention and split between Catholics and the rest is the idea you ought to be doing something right rather than wrong.


              Whereas in Faith Alone or Calvinist election, how could anyone possibly better or worsen their chance at salvation by WHAT THEY DO or Don't DO?


              For instance a person has a better chance at salvation if they engage the GOOD WORK of agreeing to hearing the gospel.

              But if another group refused to hear the gospel according to particular Orodo Salutis they would have a guaranteed zero chance at salvation, since the regeneration can only follow hearing the gospel.


              Where is ALL GOD? Monergism?



              When we talk about GOOD WORKS and THE CHURCH we are not talking about things devoid, separate and not originating with God.


              Everyone almost already agree to all teachings given, just not as how they understand them or how they are believed enforced.


              “The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 1257).

              It does not mention the SYMBOL of baptism but actual baptism.

              “Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 846).

              The Church includes the trinity. The Church has Jesus Christ at its head. And even if. If the whole world says NO but Jesus says YES, Then THE CHURCH has spoken with YES.


              “This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn,” (CCC 980).

              Jesus Christ is still a PRIEST by which you are forgiven even after baptism. At the end of the day you are still going through sacrament of penance and forgiven by a priest.


              “The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation, (CCC 1129).

              Sacraments fancy word for gift from God. Forgiveness is a sacrament still required for Salvation.


              Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation,” (CCC 1816).

              Denial of the Gospel would be its contrary.


              “The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law [i.e., 10 Commandments, CCC 2070], because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 2036)

              Even your objection against the catholic church , believing we would go to hell for believing so has foundation right here on Love God and Love neighbor. You probably even say we truly Love God and Neighbor if we leave the catholic church.


              Detachment from riches is necessary for entering the Kingdom of heaven,” (CCC 2556).


              Matthew 6
              24“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.


              Again if you go back to anathema's above. this is not talking about conditions to earn justification. Simply everyone in heaven is very much detached from material wealth.




              If you are correct about FAITH ALONE and GOOD WORKS won't veer us to salvation. Then why bother with what Catholic do or don't do right if it has no bearing on salvation?

              Its like you don't even believe what you claim to believe.



              Let me pretend to be a Calvinist for one moment here. Watch this.


              Lord Please elect these stubborn Catholics, Amen. Make sure they hear the gospel. All done. let God take it from here.

              Comment


              • #8
                Calvin, in his treatise on eternal predestination, proclaims the heresy that God is the cause of sin.
                "The Holy Roman Church condemns, rejects, anathematizes and declares to be outside the Body of Christ, which is the Church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views.” Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by illini1959 View Post

                  You just complicated it.

                  Salvation is the free gift of God that has no caveats, no hoops to jump through, and He doesn't take it back.

                  This is the Gospel -

                  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life John 3:16

                  That's it.

                  If the OP appears to "over complicate" things, it's because he's addressing catholic teaching vs scripture.

                  3/4 of his post is catholic catechism.

                  That's where the complication comes in.
                  Do you believe in free will?
                  "The Holy Roman Church condemns, rejects, anathematizes and declares to be outside the Body of Christ, which is the Church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views.” Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mysterium Fidei View Post
                    Calvin, in his treatise on eternal predestination, proclaims the heresy that God is the cause of sin.
                    Greetings Mysterium Fidei,

                    post the evidence.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mysterium Fidei View Post
                      You attempt to over complicate the Faith. The only thing necessary for salvation is to die in a state of sanctifying grace.
                      And how does one know if they will be in a state of 'sanctifying grace' when they die since no one knows when they will breath their last?

                      Does scripture say one must be in a state of sanctifying grace before they die in order to inherit eternal life?

                      We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Matt Slick View Post
                        Is Roman Catholic teaching on salvation correct? I for one believe that if you follow OFFICIAL Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then you will go to hell.


                        Heaven is God's reward for good works: "In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere 'to the end' and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ," (CCC 1821).

                        Merit grace for ourselves: "Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification," (CCC 2010).

                        Salvation through keeping the commandments: "The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; 28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord...the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments," (CCC 2068, http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2.htm).

                        “The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 1257).

                        “Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 846).

                        “This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn,” (CCC 980).

                        “The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation, (CCC 1129).

                        Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation,” (CCC 1816).

                        “The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law [i.e., 10 Commandments, CCC 2070], because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 2036)

                        Detachment from riches is necessary for entering the Kingdom of heaven,” (CCC 2556).

                        Summation: In Roman Catholicism that which is NECESSARY for salvation includes the church (CCC 846), baptism (CCC 1257), penance (CCC 980), sacraments (CCC 1129), service and witness to the faith (CCC 1816), keeping the ten commandments (CCC 2036 and 2070), and detachment from riches (CCC 2556).

                        But, the Bible says...
                        • Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
                        • Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
                        • Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;"
                        • James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all."
                        • Gal. 3:10, "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
                        Catholics need to repent and believe the true Gospel of Jesus which is faith in Christ's work on the cross alone and NOT adding any of your sin-stained efforts to either attain, maintain, or regain salvation.

                        Hello Matt.

                        Can you give your comments on the verses below please?
                        Romans 2:13

                        13 For it is NOT those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, BUT IT IS THOSE WHO OBEY THE LAW who will be DECLARED RIGHTEOUS"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by utilyan View Post


                          Council of Trent:
                          1. If anyone says that man is justified before God by his own works (whether done through the teaching of human nature or the law) without the grace of God through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.
                          2. If anyone says that the grace of God through Jesus Christ is given only that man may live justly and merit eternal life, as if by free will (without grace) he could do both, let him be anathema.
                          3. If anyone says that without the inspiration and help of the Holy Ghost man can believe, hope, love or be penitent as he ought, so the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.



                          Is it through Grace that God make your works acceptable to Him?
                          One of the ekklēsia

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DANNO View Post

                            Hello Matt.

                            Can you give your comments on the verses below please?
                            Romans 2:13


                            13 For it is NOT those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, BUT IT IS THOSE WHO OBEY THE LAW who will be DECLARED RIGHTEOUS"
                            Matt's comments on Romans 2:13 are here
                            https://carm.org/catholic/romans2-11...by-keeping-law

                            so yes:
                            If anyone actually kept the law 100% they would be declared righteous
                            but no one has:


                            Roamns 3:10
                            As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;


                            Romans 3:19
                            Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
                            20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin
                            ------------

                            Romans 3:28
                            For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

                            I understand why you are confused
                            If you went to mass every single day : you would never even hear the words of Romans 3:19 read


                            EDIT link violation

                            read it again in case you missed it
                            Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law.
                            One of the ekklēsia

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DANNO View Post

                              Hello Matt.

                              Can you give your comments on the verses below please?
                              Romans 2:13

                              13 For it is NOT those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, BUT IT IS THOSE WHO OBEY THE LAW who will be DECLARED RIGHTEOUS"
                              Here's his article.

                              https://carm.org/catholic/romans2-11...by-keeping-law

                              Comment

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