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Sola Fide: who is right; who is wrong?

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  • Sola Fide: who is right; who is wrong?

    Sola Fide: who is right; who is wrong?

    Sola Fide: who is right; who is wrong?
    So we have the last 2 Popes saying Luther was right on Sola Fide
    Pope Benedict XVI
    -November 19th 2008,
    That is why Luther’s expression “sola fide” [“faith alone’’] is true if faith is not opposed to charity, to love. Faith is to look at Christ, to entrust oneself to Christ, to be united to Christ, to be conformed to Christ, to his life.”
    “sola fide” [“faith alone’’] is true if faith is not opposed to charity, to love."
    Faith is is not opposed to charity, to love
    therefore Faith alone is true


    Pope Francis 10/2017
    Because of Martin Luther, Pope Francis said, “Today Lutherans and Catholics, and Protestants, all of us agree on the doctrine of justification. On this point, which is very important, he did not err.”

    As this is a matter of faith: are the last 2 Popes wrong?
    Isn’t this a subject they have studied over, prayed about, and sought guidance?
    So we have Luther was right or your last 2 Popes are wrong.

    Next; we have a Catholic apologists and author plainly stating the Luther was right and the Catholic Church had failedto preach the gospel

    Fundamentals of the Faith: Essays in Christian Apologetics
    page 290 by Catholic author and apologist Peter Kreeft
    quoting
    "How do I resolve the Reformation?
    Is it faith alone that justifies, or is it faith and works?
    Very simple.
    No tricks.

    On this issue I believe Luther was simply right; and this issue is absolutely crucial.
    As a Catholic I feel guilt for the tragedy of Christian disunity because the church in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries was failing to preach the gospel.

    Whatever theological mistakes Luther made, whatever indispensable truths about the Church he denied, here is an indispensable truth he affirmed — indispensable to union between all sinners and God and union between God’s separated Catholic and Protestant children.
    end quote
    Well that seem a bit harsh,
    but don’t worry:
    The lead apologist at CAF and EWTN contributor, Jimmy Akin has a way out for you :
    Jimmy says Luther was right and the Catholic Church was right:
    but what is wrong is YOUR understanding of what the Church taught

    "So Trent does not condemn the (good) Protestant understanding of faith alone. In fact, the canon allows the formula to be used so long as it is not used so as to understand that nothing besides intellectual assent is required

    The canon only condemns sola fide if it is used so as to understand that nothing else [besides intellectual assent] is required to attain justification. Thus Trent is only condemning one interpretation of the sola fides formula and not the formula itself.."

    ...

    If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, so as to understand that nothing else is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.
    The reason this is not applicable to modern Protestants is that Protestants (at least the good ones) do not hold the view being condemned in this canon.

    Like all Catholic documents of the period, it uses the term faith in the sense of intellectual belief in whatever God says.
    Thus the position being condemned is the idea that we are justified by intellectual assent alone (as per James 2).

    We might rephrase the canon:
    If anyone says that the sinner is justified by intellectual assent alone, so as to understand that nothing besides intellectual assent is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.
    after nearly 500 years of Catholic misunderstanding; I love the way Akin tells you Trent really meant .

    so in summary
    Luther was right or the Popes are wrong on a matter of faith
    Luther was right and the Catholic Church was wrong
    or
    Luther was right, AND the Popes are right, AND the Catholic Church is right, but you have been wrong in your interpretation of Trent

    One of the ekklēsia

  • #2
    Originally posted by tester View Post
    Sola Fide: who is right; who is wrong?

    Sola Fide: who is right; who is wrong?
    So we have the last 2 Popes saying Luther was right on Sola Fide



    As this is a matter of faith: are the last 2 Popes wrong?
    Isn’t this a subject they have studied over, prayed about, and sought guidance?
    So we have Luther was right or your last 2 Popes are wrong.

    Next; we have a Catholic apologists and author plainly stating the Luther was right and the Catholic Church had failedto preach the gospel



    Well that seem a bit harsh,
    but don’t worry:
    The lead apologist at CAF and EWTN contributor, Jimmy Akin has a way out for you :
    Jimmy says Luther was right and the Catholic Church was right:
    but what is wrong is YOUR understanding of what the Church taught



    after nearly 500 years of Catholic misunderstanding; I love the way Akin tells you Trent really meant .

    so in summary
    Luther was right or the Popes are wrong on a matter of faith
    Luther was right and the Catholic Church was wrong
    or
    Luther was right, AND the Popes are right, AND the Catholic Church is right, but you have been wrong in your interpretation of Trent
    Catholicism can't help but contradict itself at every turn. All catholics here believe in faith + works = possible salvation. The ccc says you don't even need to know the gospel 1260. But when in doubt use a bunch of flowery language to blur the meaning of some comment. Trent, session 6 is full of anathemas for those that believe in faith + nothing = salvation. This is nothing more than the devil trying to make catholicism palatable to the world. Once they get sucked in then its the never ending merry go round of sacraments, holy days of obligation and forced fasts.
    Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by tester View Post
      Sola Fide: who is right; who is wrong?

      Sola Fide: who is right; who is wrong?
      So we have the last 2 Popes saying Luther was right on Sola Fide



      As this is a matter of faith: are the last 2 Popes wrong?
      Isn’t this a subject they have studied over, prayed about, and sought guidance?
      So we have Luther was right or your last 2 Popes are wrong.

      Next; we have a Catholic apologists and author plainly stating the Luther was right and the Catholic Church had failedto preach the gospel



      Well that seem a bit harsh,
      but don’t worry:
      The lead apologist at CAF and EWTN contributor, Jimmy Akin has a way out for you :
      Jimmy says Luther was right and the Catholic Church was right:
      but what is wrong is YOUR understanding of what the Church taught



      after nearly 500 years of Catholic misunderstanding; I love the way Akin tells you Trent really meant .

      so in summary
      Luther was right or the Popes are wrong on a matter of faith
      Luther was right and the Catholic Church was wrong
      or
      Luther was right, AND the Popes are right, AND the Catholic Church is right, but you have been wrong in your interpretation of Trent
      ..if faith is not opposed to charity.

      Protestants have told us we don't need charity (love of God) to be saved.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by kirby View Post

        ..if faith is not opposed to charity.

        Protestants have told us we don't need charity (love of God) to be saved.
        the quote is
        "That is why Luther’s expression “sola fide” [“faith alone’’] is true if faith is not opposed to charity, to love. Faith is to look at Christ, to entrust oneself to Christ, to be united to Christ, to be conformed to Christ, to his life.”"

        Let's work through that "if" statement

        Is the faith that Luther was discussing opposed to charity?

        No! Faith is NOT opposed to charity

        therefore Sola Fide is true

        “sola fide” [“faith alone’’] is true if faith is not opposed to charity,
        Faith is not opposed to charity
        therefore Faith alone is true

        Re your other point
        "Protestants have told us we don't need charity (love of God) to be saved."
        is correct

        Because we are saved (justified/declared righteous by God) apart from works of the Law and loving God is a work of the law.
        One of the ekklēsia

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by kirby View Post

          ..if faith is not opposed to charity.

          Protestants have told us we don't need charity (love of God) to be saved.
          Well, it is a matter of getting the cause and the effect right. We are not saved because we love - we love because He has saved us.

          Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. (1 John 4:7-12)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by tester View Post
            Sola Fide: who is right; who is wrong?

            Sola Fide: who is right; who is wrong?
            So we have the last 2 Popes saying Luther was right on Sola Fide



            As this is a matter of faith: are the last 2 Popes wrong?
            Isn’t this a subject they have studied over, prayed about, and sought guidance?
            So we have Luther was right or your last 2 Popes are wrong.

            Next; we have a Catholic apologists and author plainly stating the Luther was right and the Catholic Church had failedto preach the gospel



            Well that seem a bit harsh,
            but don’t worry:
            The lead apologist at CAF and EWTN contributor, Jimmy Akin has a way out for you :
            Jimmy says Luther was right and the Catholic Church was right:
            but what is wrong is YOUR understanding of what the Church taught



            after nearly 500 years of Catholic misunderstanding; I love the way Akin tells you Trent really meant .

            so in summary
            Luther was right or the Popes are wrong on a matter of faith
            Luther was right and the Catholic Church was wrong
            or
            Luther was right, AND the Popes are right, AND the Catholic Church is right, but you have been wrong in your interpretation of Trent
            “Similarly we also, who by His will have been called in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, or our own wisdom or understanding or godliness, nor by such deeds as we have done in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which Almighty God has justified all men since the beginning of time. Glory be to Him, forever and ever, Amen.”- St. Clement of Rome (? – ~101 AD) (Letter to the Corinthians, par. 32)
            Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tester View Post
              Sola Fide: who is right; who is wrong?

              Sola Fide: who is right; who is wrong?
              So we have the last 2 Popes saying Luther was right on Sola Fide



              As this is a matter of faith: are the last 2 Popes wrong?
              Isn’t this a subject they have studied over, prayed about, and sought guidance?
              So we have Luther was right or your last 2 Popes are wrong.

              Next; we have a Catholic apologists and author plainly stating the Luther was right and the Catholic Church had failedto preach the gospel



              Well that seem a bit harsh,
              but don’t worry:
              The lead apologist at CAF and EWTN contributor, Jimmy Akin has a way out for you :
              Jimmy says Luther was right and the Catholic Church was right:
              but what is wrong is YOUR understanding of what the Church taught



              after nearly 500 years of Catholic misunderstanding; I love the way Akin tells you Trent really meant .

              so in summary
              Luther was right or the Popes are wrong on a matter of faith
              Luther was right and the Catholic Church was wrong
              or
              Luther was right, AND the Popes are right, AND the Catholic Church is right, but you have been wrong in your interpretation of Trent
              Doesn't scripture alone settle the issue?
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." Jim Elliot

              "There is no pit so deep that God's love is not deeper still." Betsy ten Boom

              "God in His deepest mystery is not a solitude, but a family, since He has in Himself fatherhood, sonship, and the essence of the family, which is love." John Paul II

              ’Then Mary said, ‘Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.’ One of the greatest responses in all of scripture.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by rldlolbeding View Post

                Doesn't scripture alone settle the issue?
                sure it does: but Scripture can't force you not to ignore it or not to pervert it.
                One of the ekklēsia

                Comment

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