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Does God give the gift of a dead faith?

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  • Does God give the gift of a dead faith?

    Catholics:

    Does God give the gift of a dead faith?
    Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

    YES OR NO?

    Originally posted by utilyan View Post

    Yes ABSOLUTELY.

    Have you stopped beating your wife yet? YES OR NO?


    Grace is the Gift spoken of in Ephesians. and we see this repeated again and again.

    Ephesians 3:7

    7of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.


    Ephesians 4:7

    7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.


    However, Faith is Gift, breathing is a Gift, Sneezing is a Gift of God.



    Does God give the gift of a dead faith? Absolutely. He also gives the gift of GOOD WORKS to bring it life.

    If God can gift you a mountain of dead faith it is a blessing. Because you have the potential to bring it life, as scripture says:

    James 2

    22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

    When that DEAD FAITH goes to work with GOOD WORKS, it gets the spirit, it gets LIFE.


    It is by FAITH we have access to GRACE. If Grace is a word of God, Faith is the ears.


    "what is the spiritual difference between a dead faith and no faith?"

    If God was before a fool and the devil and said he is going to drop a boulder where they are standing.

    The fool who has no faith in God doesn't trust him so he doesn't move.

    The Devil who does have faith in God moves out of the way. He trusts GOD completely and maintains HATRED for God.

    The fool has no faith, The Devil has dead faith.

    The devil BELIEVES God will do what he says he will do. The Devil believes Jesus Christ is Lord.

    FAITH ALONE has absolutely no bearing on Allegiance or Righteousness.

    Faith is still needed just like you still need feet to walk around, they can still walk a wrong way, You need GOOD WORKS to guide and perfect it.

    And when I talk about good works REALLY the most minimal tiniest request is LOVE. Love has to be in there somewhere.


    If you said this faith I have has Love of God. that is pass.

    But if you say this faith is devoid of love or If you say this faith is devoid then later creates Love, no not buying it scripture multiple times points to LOVE making Faith greater even just to get it to work right.
    One of the ekklēsia

  • #2
    Originally posted by tester View Post
    Catholics:

    Does God give the gift of a dead faith?
    Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

    YES OR NO?


    Actually---that is a good question--but it seems to me it poses more of a problem for Protestants than Catholics.

    You see, it is Protestants who rewrite and re-frame the book of James. James clearly teaches that works are a necessary component of salvation. Protestants rewrite this to mean that James is contrasting a living Faith with a dead Faith. James is not saying that works save. What James is really saying is that a living Faith produces works, a dead Faith does not.

    Fine. But it seems a dead Faith is tautology for "no Faith." This begs the question "Why would God grace someone with a dead Faith?" A "dead Faith" is an oxymoron, is it not? A dead Faith is no Faith. So why would God grace someone with no Faith?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Romishpopishpapist View Post
      James clearly teaches that works are a necessary component of salvation.
      You mean, the component that Christ could not accomplish with His blood?

      James is not saying that works save.
      While you're at it: how are we saved, according to James?

      A dead Faith is no Faith. So why would God grace someone with no Faith?
      You're right, why would He? The obvious answer is that He doesn't. Faith in Christ is always a living faith. No one who believes in Him will perish.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Romishpopishpapist View Post

        Actually---that is a good question--but it seems to me it poses more of a problem for Protestants than Catholics.

        You see, it is Protestants who rewrite and re-frame the book of James. James clearly teaches that works are a necessary component of salvation.
        Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works, lest anyone should boast...

        Works will always accompany saving faith, but those works are not salvific, they evidence our faith as James says....

        Show me your faith without your works and I'll show you my faith by my works....

        Protestants rewrite this to mean that James is contrasting a living Faith with a dead Faith.
        Nothing is rewritten....that's exactly what James is saying....see above.

        James is not saying that works save. What James is really saying is that a living Faith produces works, a dead Faith does not.
        No one has said otherwise.

        "Why would God grace someone with a dead Faith?" A "dead Faith" is an oxymoron, is it not? A dead Faith is no Faith. So why would God grace someone with no Faith?
        He doesn't....it's your Catholic brethren that says he does....or did you not pay attention to the OP?


        ~~~My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My Father's hand~~~

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Romishpopishpapist View Post

          Actually---that is a good question--but it seems to me it poses more of a problem for Protestants than Catholics.

          You see, it is Protestants who rewrite and re-frame the book of James. James clearly teaches that works are a necessary component of salvation. Protestants rewrite this to mean that James is contrasting a living Faith with a dead Faith. James is not saying that works save. What James is really saying is that a living Faith produces works, a dead Faith does not.

          Fine. But it seems a dead Faith is tautology for "no Faith." This begs the question "Why would God grace someone with a dead Faith?" A "dead Faith" is an oxymoron, is it not? A dead Faith is no Faith. So why would God grace someone with no Faith?
          James is saying works are a necessary component of faith. He is arguing that true saving faith is something which includes works as part of its definition. A faith which simply agrees that things about God are true is no better than what demons do. Even the demons believe God is one; even the demons believe that Jesus is Holy One, the Christ, the Son of God. But they have no works. This notion of believing/faith does the demons no good; it does no one any good. Unfortunately this notion of faith is what most people think faith is.
          Last edited by Servant of the Lord; 06-10-19, 09:27 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Romishpopishpapist View Post

            Actually---that is a good question--but it seems to me it poses more of a problem for Protestants than Catholics.

            You see, it is Protestants who rewrite and re-frame the book of James. James clearly teaches that works are a necessary component of salvation. Protestants rewrite this to mean that James is contrasting a living Faith with a dead Faith. James is not saying that works save. What James is really saying is that a living Faith produces works, a dead Faith does not.

            Fine. But it seems a dead Faith is tautology for "no Faith." This begs the question "Why would God grace someone with a dead Faith?" A "dead Faith" is an oxymoron, is it not? A dead Faith is no Faith. So why would God grace someone with no Faith?
            no one has ever claimed mental assent saves

            re: James.
            From “You Can Understand The Bible” By Peter Kreeft
            page 291:
            Quote from page 291;
            The apparent contradiction between James, who says that we, like Abraham, are justified by works (2:21), and Paul, who says that we, like Abraham, are justified by faith (Rom.4:3), is explained by looking at the context.
            Paul's context is the relationship between the believer and God, while James' context is the relationship between the believer and his neighbor.
            God sees your faith; your neighbor sees your works.
            Faith justifies us before God; works justify us before our neighbors.


            read that again in case you missed it
            quoting again
            "A further explanation is that James means by "faith" only intellectual belief"
            You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder" (2:19).
            But Paul means by "faith" (in Galatians and Romans) something more than belief. He means accepting Christ into your soul and thus into your life, where it produces good works as its fruit.
            "

            re: James

            Lead apologist at CAF : Jimmy Akin corrects your understanding

            "So Trent does not condemn the (good) Protestant understanding of faith alone. In fact, the canon allows the formula to be used so long as it is not used so as to understand that nothing besides intellectual assent is required

            The canon only condemns sola fide if it is used so as to understand that nothing else [besides intellectual assent] is required to attain justification. Thus Trent is only condemning one interpretation of the sola fides formula and not the formula itself.."

            ...
            If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, so as to understand that nothing else is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.
            The reason this is not applicable to modern Protestants is that Protestants (at least the good ones) do not hold the view being condemned in this canon.

            Like all Catholic documents of the period, it uses the term faith in the sense of intellectual belief in whatever God says.
            Thus the position being condemned is the idea that we are justified by intellectual assent alone (as per James 2).

            We might rephrase the canon:
            If anyone says that the sinner is justified by intellectual assent alone, so as to understand that nothing besides intellectual assent is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.
            -------------

            so now I have Kreeft and Akin telling you that the CONTEXT of James 2 is intellectual assent.

            NO EVANGELIST IS CLAIMING INTELLECTUAL ASSENT SAVES!
            One of the ekklēsia

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Johan View Post

              You mean, the component that Christ could not accomplish with His blood?
              Actually....

              It is precisely because of Christ's blood that human works are saving in the first place. Catholics do not believe works save on their own. Works apart from Faith are worthless. Works done in Faith save because they are done in Christ.

              While you're at it: how are we saved, according to James?
              Your the Protestant. Why don't you tell me?

              You're right, why would He? The obvious answer is that He doesn't. Faith in Christ is always a living faith. No one who believes in Him will perish.
              Correct--hence my point. A dead faith is an oxymoron. How could James, then, be contrasting a dead faith with a living faith when there is no such thing as a dead faith?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Romishpopishpapist View Post
                Actually---that is a good question--but it seems to me it poses more of a problem for Protestants than Catholics.

                You see, it is Protestants who rewrite and re-frame the book of James. James clearly teaches that works are a necessary component of salvation. Protestants rewrite this to mean that James is contrasting a living Faith with a dead Faith. James is not saying that works save. What James is really saying is that a living Faith produces works, a dead Faith does not.

                Fine. But it seems a dead Faith is tautology for "no Faith." This begs the question "Why would God grace someone with a dead Faith?" A "dead Faith" is an oxymoron, is it not? A dead Faith is no Faith. So why would God grace someone with no Faith?
                what are the 1st 3 words in that verse? who is speaking? and who is he speaking to?

                James 2 nkjv

                22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?



                "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

                The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by mica View Post
                  what are the 1st 3 words in that verse? who is speaking? and who is he speaking to?

                  James 2 nkjv

                  22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?


                  I just do not see how anyone can do good works without faith. First faith, then the good works we do are because we are saved and God does the works.

                  Your questions are relevant and need to be answered before jumping to conclusions about what it means.

                  Jeremiah 9:23
                  Thus says the Lord: “Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches,


                  There are so many warnings about boasting, so one should never be proud of good works. The boast should be in the work of Christ Gal 6:14. That is the real good work, that is the important work, that is the real love.

                  I think if we keep this in mind along with the answers to your questions, we know that if we love it is because of the work Christ has done.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Romishpopishpapist View Post
                    It is precisely because of Christ's blood that human works are saving in the first place.
                    Wait, wait, wait. So you believe after all that you are saved by your works. I mean, that very claim has been adamantly rejected by other Catholics on here. So when will you make up your minds? And what are you actually saying here? That the blood of Christ does not save us, whereas your "works done in faith" do? And what, more specifically, does the blood of Christ add to your soteriological equation?

                    Catholics do not believe works save on their own. Works apart from Faith are worthless. Works done in Faith save because they are done in Christ.
                    What do you more specifically mean by "works done in Christ"? Was the crucifixion of Christ necessary at all for our salvation?

                    Your the Protestant. Why don't you tell me?
                    Simple. James does not teach how we are saved. He does not say anything about the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. In other words, he does not say anything about the Gospel.

                    Correct--hence my point. A dead faith is an oxymoron. How could James, then, be contrasting a dead faith with a living faith when there is no such thing as a dead faith?
                    In the same way as one might contrast a living love with a dead love, i.e. no love at all. In fact, that is an analogy that James makes in the same passage.

                    Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. (Jas. 2:15-17)

                    What he is saying is that "compassion" that consists of words without action is worth zilch. Such compassion is no compassion at all and benefits no one.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tester View Post
                      Catholics:

                      Does God give the gift of a dead faith?
                      Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

                      YES OR NO?
                      "What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

                      Hey God, thanks for the dead , useless, demon-like faith!!

                      Catholics;
                      Does God give the gift of a dead faith?
                      It is a key foundational premise that you build on.
                      One of the ekklēsia

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Romishpopishpapist View Post

                        Actually....

                        It is precisely because of Christ's blood that human works are saving in the first place. Catholics do not believe works save on their own. Works apart from Faith are worthless. Works done in Faith save because they are done in Christ.



                        Your the Protestant. Why don't you tell me?



                        Correct--hence my point. A dead faith is an oxymoron. How could James, then, be contrasting a dead faith with a living faith when there is no such thing as a dead faith?
                        So ultimately Catholics believe they are saved by their own efforts.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Romishpopishpapist View Post

                          ...


                          Correct--hence my point. A dead faith is an oxymoron. How could James, then, be contrasting a dead faith with a living faith when there is no such thing as a dead faith?
                          a dead faith is the faith of demons: (mere mental assent of the some true facts)
                          Last edited by tester; 06-15-19, 08:41 AM.
                          One of the ekklēsia

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Romishpopishpapist View Post

                            Actually....

                            It is precisely because of Christ's blood that human works are saving in the first place. Catholics do not believe works save on their own. Works apart from Faith are worthless. Works done in Faith save because they are done in Christ.
                            That is a very long held error:

                            God is NOT the justifier of works
                            God is the jusutifier of the person

                            Christ did not go to the Cross to make your works acceptable to God

                            Christ went to the Cross to make the Saved acceptable to God

                            human works are NEVER saving in any case

                            ---------------------------


                            CHRISTIAN: "What exactly then, do you believe?"

                            IGNORANCE: "I believe that Christ died for sinners— and that I shall be justified before God from the curse, through His gracious acceptance of my obedience to His law. To state it another way, Christ makes my religious duties acceptable to His Father, by virtue of His merits—and so I shall be justified."

                            CHRISTIAN: "Let me give an answer to your beliefs on this issue.
                            "First, you believe with an imaginary faith—for this kind of faith is nowhere described in the Word.
                            "Secondly, you believe with a false faith— because you trust that you are justified by your own righteousness, rather than the righteousness of Christ.
                            "Thirdly, your beliefs make Christ a justifier of your actions— but not of your person. You think that your person is justified for your action's sake, which is false.
                            "Therefore, your faith is deceitful—even such as will leave you under divine wrath, in the day of Almighty God's judgment

                            The Pilgrim's Progress 1678
                            --------------

                            "Works done in Faith save because they are done in Christ."

                            Human works NEVER save..
                            There is nothing that precedes of follows the free gift of faith that is the basis of justification.

                            From the Vatican website
                            But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith it is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.
                            One of the ekklēsia

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