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Jesus' family

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  • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

    You seem to give us bad examples, Esau sold his heritage to his twin brother. As for Ismael, God had told Abraham that Ismael would be multiplied and have twelve chieftains; but God established his covenant with Isaac. At the insistence of Sara, God tells Abraham send Ismael and Hagar out of his camps. But, true to His word Ismael multiplied and had twelve chiefs Genesis 21:8-21; 25:12-16]. Even saying this, the events discussed were prior to Moses and the Law which would have been used by the eldest of Mary to claim both the secular inheritance of Christ and the spiritual inheritance - and he would have been in the right doing so if Mary indeed had other sons. Men have been placing there names over the door of Christ's Kingdom ever since, e.g. Luther's church, Calvin's church, etc.

    Finally, we come to John 19:26-27; behold thy son . . . behold thy mother. Christ's giving over Mary to John, as a representative of the infant Catholic Church, to 'behold' his mother and to give his mother the protectorate over the Church, His Kingdom.

    JoeT
    There was nothing wrong with my examples except that they showed the flaws in the point you were trying to make. That was just two examples of many were the eldest did not get the blessings. No one is saying Jesus wasn't Mary's first son. He was, but that does not mean she did not have others after him. Your argument seems to be that Jesus wasn't the eldest.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by balshan View Post

      There was nothing wrong with my examples except that they showed the flaws in the point you were trying to make.
      My point is that your examples were weak because it doesn't show flaws in Catholicism.

      That was just two examples of many were the eldest did not get the blessings.
      Ok, it was just two examples, but showing a few abnormal cases doesn't make the whole Law void. There is an adage that has true through the ages, "exceptions don't make the rule". You need to show the vast majority of inheritances did not have the eldest surviving son receive the property of his patriarch.

      No one is saying Jesus wasn't Mary's first son. He was, but that does not mean she did not have others after him. Your argument seems to be that Jesus wasn't the eldest.
      The only way Mary could participate in the estate of Joseph was through the oldest surviving son. Thus, it would have been a breach of protocol for Jesus to give His mother care into the hands of John. Furthermore, it would have been akin to stealing for John to receive her and take possession of Joseph's estate not to mention the insult to other surviving children. Women in the first century had very little rights to own property. They could own personal goods and chattel owned prior to their marriage, at the death of their husbands. Widows were given back to the care of their father or they could continue in the control of the inheritance only through the eldest surviving son. Otherwise, a widow was left destitute - unable to even feed herself.

      JoeT.

      Sigillum Militum Χρisti † / "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

      Totus Tuus, "Totally yours . . . Keep me in this union".

      Comment


      • Originally posted by mica View Post
        catholic fantasy. the RCC didn't exist.
        Great argument! You almost had me thinking.

        JoeT
        Sigillum Militum Χρisti † / "Truth exists. The Incarnation happened."

        Totus Tuus, "Totally yours . . . Keep me in this union".

        Comment


        • Originally posted by By His Mercy View Post

          Scripture doesn't negate our teaching here. The word adelphos has expanded meanings. Joseph could have had children from a previous marriage. I'm not trying to prove either of these...just mentioning the possibilities. So if you can't refute, then that's that. You have no case.

          -BHM
          Where were they during Marys marriage? Her Pregnancy? Her delivery? Her fleeing tp Egypt?
          Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JoeT View Post
            My point is that your examples were weak because it doesn't show flaws in Catholicism.



            Ok, it was just two examples, but showing a few abnormal cases doesn't make the whole Law void. There is an adage that has true through the ages, "exceptions don't make the rule". You need to show the vast majority of inheritances did not have the eldest surviving son receive the property of his patriarch.



            The only way Mary could participate in the estate of Joseph was through the oldest surviving son. Thus, it would have been a breach of protocol for Jesus to give His mother care into the hands of John. Furthermore, it would have been akin to stealing for John to receive her and take possession of Joseph's estate not to mention the insult to other surviving children. Women in the first century had very little rights to own property. They could own personal goods and chattel owned prior to their marriage, at the death of their husbands. Widows were given back to the care of their father or they could continue in the control of the inheritance only through the eldest surviving son. Otherwise, a widow was left destitute - unable to even feed herself.

            JoeT.
            My point was that your argument had flaws in it. No one knows when there is an exception, or what makes an exception. You have a theory based on a flawed argument. No one knows what makes an exception. You are trying to defend your myth using weak and flawed defence. I say that Jesus had older siblings that was some RCs who believe Joseph had children from a previous marriage.

            My belief is that the siblings mentioned in scripture are Jesus real siblings. That Mary had other children, this does not lessen who Jesus is.Now if my question in the OP could be answered by an RC that would be a miracle.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JoeT View Post

              Great argument! You almost had me thinking. JoeT
              that would be a start...


              "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

              The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JoeT View Post
                My point is that your examples were weak because it doesn't show flaws in Catholicism.

                Ok, it was just two examples, but showing a few abnormal cases doesn't make the whole Law void. There is an adage that has true through the ages, "exceptions don't make the rule". You need to show the vast majority of inheritances did not have the eldest surviving son receive the property of his patriarch.

                The only way Mary could participate in the estate of Joseph was through the oldest surviving son. Thus, it would have been a breach of protocol for Jesus to give His mother care into the hands of John. Furthermore, it would have been akin to stealing for John to receive her and take possession of Joseph's estate not to mention the insult to other surviving children. Women in the first century had very little rights to own property. They could own personal goods and chattel owned prior to their marriage, at the death of their husbands. Widows were given back to the care of their father or they could continue in the control of the inheritance only through the eldest surviving son. Otherwise, a widow was left destitute - unable to even feed herself. JoeT.
                iow, you don't believe Jesus knew what He was doing at that time by putting Mary into the care of John.

                "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

                The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

                  Where were they during Marys marriage? Her Pregnancy? Her delivery? Her fleeing tp Egypt?
                  it seems like Joseph must have abandoned those other (non existing) children.


                  "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

                  The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by By His Mercy View Post

                    Scripture doesn't negate our teaching here. The word adelphos has expanded meanings. Joseph could have had children from a previous marriage. I'm not trying to prove either of these...just mentioning the possibilities. So if you can't refute, then that's that. You have no case.

                    -BHM
                    Scripture absolutely negates your teaching.

                    How does one continue to put faith in teachings that aren't solid, that leave people guessing and assuming?

                    Here's a post I made on another thread. It's right.there. There are multiple verses that expressly say "Jesus' brothers" and some include His sisters.



                    Etymology ---

                    From studylight.org

                    Bible Lexicons
                    Old / New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary
                    Entry for Strong's #80 - ἀδελφός
                    Transliteration
                    adelphós

                    From ἄλφα (G1) (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb).

                    Definition ---


                    There are 6 ways this word is used in scripture (I searched for the NASB version)

                    The first one includes the passage in question - Mark 6:3.

                    Thayer's Expanded Definition
                    ἀδελφός, (οῦ, ὁ (from ἆ copulative and δελφύς, from the same womb; cf. ἀγάστωρ) (from Homer down);

                    1. a brother (whether born of the same two parents, or only of the same father or the same mother): Matthew 1:2; Matthew 4:18, and often. That 'the brethren of Jesus,' Matthew 12:46, 47 (but WH only in marginal reading); f; Mark 6:3 (in the last two passages also sisters); Luke 8:19; John 2:12; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; Galatians 1:19; 1 Corinthians 9:5, are neither sons of Joseph by a wife married before Mary (which is the account in the Apocryphal Gospels (cf. Thilo, Cod. Apocr. N. T. i. 362f)), nor cousins, the children of Alphaeus or Cleophas (i. e. Clopas) and Mary a sister of the mother of Jesus (the current opinion among the doctors of the church since Jerome and Augustine (cf. Lightfoot's Commentary on Galatians, diss. ii.)), according to that use of language by which ἀδελφός like the Hebrew אָח denotes any blood-relation or kinsman (Genesis 14:16; 1 Samuel 20:29; 2 Kings 10:13; 1 Chronicles 23:2, etc.), but own brothers, born after Jesus, is clear principally from Matthew 1:25 (only in R G); Luke 2:7 — where, had Mary borne no other children after Jesus, instead of υἱόν πρωτότοκον, the expression υἱόν μονογενῆ would have been used, as well as from Acts 1:14, cf. John 7:5, where the Lord's brethren are distinguished from the apostles.

                    The 6th definition is this:

                    6. brethren of Christ is used of,

                    a. his brothers by blood; see 1 above.
                    b. all men: Matthew 25:40 [Lachmann brackets]; Hebrews 2:11f [others refer these examples to d.]
                    c. apostles: Matthew 28:10; John 20:17.
                    d. Christians, as those who are destined to be exalted to the same heavenly δόξα (which see, III. 4 b.) which he enjoys: Romans 8:29.

                    There's no getting around the fact that the meaning of the word in this context = blood, bio brothers.
                    You have to reeeaaallly want to not believe this to make more excuses.
                    2 Corinthians 5:7 ~ for we walk by faith, not by sight

                    Romans 10:9 ~ that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Calsgal View Post

                      Where were they during Marys marriage? Her Pregnancy? Her delivery? Her fleeing tp Egypt?
                      Actually a brilliant point where were they at Jesus' birth, whilst living in Bethlehem? So the evidence of Joseph having children from a previous marriage is ruled out. Now to explain away those siblings mentioned in the bible.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by balshan View Post

                        Actually a brilliant point where were they at Jesus' birth, whilst living in Bethlehem? So the evidence of Joseph having children from a previous marriage is ruled out. Now to explain away those siblings mentioned in the bible.
                        Mary wife of Clopas' children
                        May the most holy, most sacred, most adorable, most incomprehensible and ineffable Name of God be forever praised, blessed, loved, adored and glorified in Heaven, on Earth, and under the Earth by all the creatures of God and by the Sacred Heart of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar. Amen.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by balshan View Post

                          Actually a brilliant point where were they at Jesus' birth, whilst living in Bethlehem? So the evidence of Joseph having children from a previous marriage is ruled out. Now to explain away those siblings mentioned in the bible.
                          I posted a long (largely ignored by the rcc sect) post on this - somewhere - and asked if they were in day care. (not taking away from Calsgal's post as she's always spot on!)

                          2 Corinthians 5:7 ~ for we walk by faith, not by sight

                          Romans 10:9 ~ that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Philomena View Post

                            Mary wife of Clopas' children
                            Are you saying those siblings are her children? Am I understanding your post correctly?

                            If so, prove it.

                            Why were they listed as being in Jesus' household and hanging out with Jesus and Mary all the time?

                            If not, never mind but please clarify.
                            2 Corinthians 5:7 ~ for we walk by faith, not by sight

                            Romans 10:9 ~ that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by illini1959 View Post

                              Are you saying those siblings are her children? Am I understanding your post correctly?

                              If so, prove it.

                              Why were they listed as being in Jesus' household and hanging out with Jesus and Mary all the time?

                              If not, never mind but please clarify.
                              Mary of Clopas was Mary's sister. Scripture says so. So her children are cousins to Jesus.

                              Blessings
                              May the most holy, most sacred, most adorable, most incomprehensible and ineffable Name of God be forever praised, blessed, loved, adored and glorified in Heaven, on Earth, and under the Earth by all the creatures of God and by the Sacred Heart of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar. Amen.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Philomena View Post

                                Mary wife of Clopas' children
                                No wrong the siblings of Jesus as mentioned in Mark 6:3, Matt 13:55 &56 or are you saying the Mary who is called the mother of Jesus is not his mother but really Mary wife of Clopas.

                                Comment

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