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Redemption is for all mankind.

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  • Redemption is for all mankind.

    Originally posted by Calsgal View Post
    Christ redeemed (bought back ) all those the Father gave Him to save ,,,
    No, Jesus did not redeem "the whole human race" His cross was indeed sufficient for all but only applied to the elect


    Romans 3: 23 All alike have sinned, all alike are unworthy of God’s praise. 24 And justification comes to us as a free gift from his grace, through our redemption in Christ Jesus.

  • #2
    Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post


    Romans 3: 23 All alike have sinned, all alike are unworthy of God’s praise. 24 And justification comes to us as a free gift from his grace, through our redemption in Christ Jesus.
    You're Catholic, so, naturally, you believe something different. But from the Christian perspective, calsgal is correct. Christ's atonement is only for the elect.
    The federal government is the only place in the world where ineptitude and corruption is met with demands for more ineptitude and corruption. - Buck Sexton

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    • #3
      Originally posted by War_Eagle View Post

      You're Catholic, so, naturally, you believe something different. But from the Christian perspective, calsgal is correct. Christ's atonement is only for the elect.
      Christian view is Jesus died for all. The Calvinist view is Jesus has unconditional hatred for people.

      There is a reason its called Calvinism. .

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      • #4
        Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post
        Romans 3: 23 All a[FONT=&amp]like have sinn[I]ed, all alike are unworthy of God’s praise.
        Does that include Mary?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by utilyan View Post

          Christian view is Jesus died for all. The Calvinist view is Jesus has unconditional hatred for people.

          There is a reason its called Calvinism. .
          The Catholic view is that Jesus redeemed everyone but saved no one by His cross. So His redemption is therefore useless, unless it is personally "applied". The Reformed view is that Christ came to actually save His people rather than making everyone "savable" and then crossing His fingers that as many as possible will "make it".

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          • #6
            Originally posted by utilyan View Post

            Christian view is Jesus died for all.
            That's the Catholic view, not the Christian view. The Christian view, as expressed in the book of Romans, is that Christ died for the elect.

            The Calvinist view is Jesus has unconditional hatred for people.
            That's pretty ignorant.


            The federal government is the only place in the world where ineptitude and corruption is met with demands for more ineptitude and corruption. - Buck Sexton

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Johan View Post

              The Catholic view is that Jesus redeemed everyone but saved no one by His cross. So His redemption is therefore useless, unless it is personally "applied". The Reformed view is that Christ came to actually save His people rather than making everyone "savable" and then crossing His fingers that as many as possible will "make it".
              According to DeMaria, people earn righteousness by keeping the Ten Commandments. And according to CCC 1475, sinners expiate their own sins in Purgatory.

              So, the Catholic Christ died for nothing, since sinners can save themselves.
              The federal government is the only place in the world where ineptitude and corruption is met with demands for more ineptitude and corruption. - Buck Sexton

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Johan View Post

                The Catholic view is that Jesus redeemed everyone but saved no one by His cross. So His redemption is therefore useless, unless it is personally "applied". The Reformed view is that Christ came to actually save His people rather than making everyone "savable" and then crossing His fingers that as many as possible will "make it".
                You are partially correct. We don't agree with the idea when Jesus said it is "it is finished" that everything was done at the cross.

                Romans 5

                10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.


                1 corinthians 15

                14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

                We are reconciled by the death we are SAVED by his life.

                Romans 5

                18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


                Romans 5

                11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

                The ministry of reconciliation comes to all men.

                Gifts are offered and they can be rejected.



                John 6

                27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”


                32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”


                We read through John, Jesus is offered to all men.


                The sin itself is NOT believing the atonement was not offered universally. We see the sin in scripture.


                John 6
                60Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?


                This is Jesus going out of his way to prophecy the miracle of ascending to heaven to PROVE he really died for THEM. They reject Jesus, They leave.

                66As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.


                The ERROR on their part is they don't believe God sent Jesus to save them.


                52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?

                Jesus doesn't say WAIT you guys are right I am not offering myself to you, because I will not die at the cross for you.


                When the rejectors say "Jesus didn't die for me" THEY SHOULD BE RIGHT. And Jesus should simply say you are correct I did not die for you ill be on my way.

                But that never happens just the opposite. Jesus goes out of his way to PROVE he is the bread God offers to them.


                There is more scripture pointing out this particular sin based on belief.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by War_Eagle View Post

                  That's the Catholic view, not the Christian view. The Christian view, as expressed in the book of Romans, is that Christ died for the elect.



                  That's pretty ignorant.

                  "That's pretty ignorant."

                  You don't believe Jesus has unconditional hatred for people?

                  You don't believe God chose to love you and hate Rob the reprobate at the foundation?

                  Ephesians 1

                  4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love


                  Do you believe there is a particular condition by which God chose to elect you and hate rob?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by War_Eagle View Post
                    According to DeMaria, people earn righteousness by keeping the Ten Commandments.
                    Exactly, and I have rarely seen anything in this forum that so blatantly contradicts the teaching of the Scriptures (Paul's writings in particular).

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by utilyan View Post

                      "That's pretty ignorant."

                      You don't believe Jesus has unconditional hatred for people?

                      You don't believe God chose to love you and hate Rob the reprobate at the foundation?

                      Ephesians 1

                      4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love


                      Do you believe there is a particular condition by which God chose to elect you and hate rob?
                      How does that fit in with
                      Romans 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

                        How does that fit in with
                        Romans 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
                        Its a figure of speech. Here is another example:

                        Luke 14

                        26“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

                        Have you murdered your parents? choked the wife? kick the children? spit on your brothers and sisters? tried suicide? Well Jesus clearly teaches Hate your life and family.

                        No. its a figure of speech. IT means Jesus takes higher priority.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by utilyan View Post

                          Its a figure of speech. Here is another example:

                          Luke 14

                          26“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

                          Have you murdered your parents? choked the wife? kick the children? spit on your brothers and sisters? tried suicide? Well Jesus clearly teaches Hate your life and family.

                          No. its a figure of speech. IT means Jesus takes higher priority.
                          In that case, also "Jacob I loved" is a figure of speech. Or are you really arguing that half of the sentence should be understood literally and the other half not?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post


                            Romans 3: 23 All alike have sinned, all alike are unworthy of God’s praise. 24 And justification comes to us as a free gift from his grace, through our redemption in Christ Jesus.
                            “”Redemption is for all mankind.””

                            according to your understanding of redemption, is there any human walking the earth this very moment that is not redeemed?
                            One of the ekklēsia

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ramcam2 View Post


                              Romans 3: 23 All alike have sinned, all alike are unworthy of God’s praise. 24 And justification comes to us as a free gift from his grace, through our redemption in Christ Jesus.
                              Who is the "us" being referred to in this passage?

                              Comment

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