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Where Can This Be Found in Holy Scripture?

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  • Originally posted by nan View Post

    How do you know when you've done enough works to get you to heaven?
    Originally posted by Rool View Post
    I don't know. How do you know when you've got enough faith to get you to heaven?
    you don't know? why not? doesn't the RCC tell you?

    when you've been born again.


    "I was changed, redeemed, forgiven before the blood was dry.

    The debt I owed was canceled in the twinkling of an eye."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Rool View Post
      That a not-so-admirable MO - history and the ecfs are against you ... so just ignore and deny them. Is that honest?

      What are you afraid of? Being wrong? The truth?
      I don't think you've been around here long enough to be blabbing about whose honest or not or who ignores or denies anything. Read the entire thread. I read history and ecfs. Its typically the catholic that can't get it right. I've cited ecfs that clearly do not consider your eucharist to be literally or physically god. And jn 6 is figurative and not literal either. So maybe instead of the divisive, caustic nature of your posts maybe you should take a more humble attitude? If you have a relevant point, make it. I'd prefer facts over the tone you seem to have in virtually every post. Or maybe you lack facts?
      Eph 5:11 And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them NASB

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Rool View Post

        I don't know. How do you know when you've got enough faith to get you to heaven?
        Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

        Just believe.
        2 Corinthians 5:7 ~ for we walk by faith, not by sight

        Romans 10:9 ~ that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Rool View Post

          I don't know. How do you know when you've got enough faith to get you to heaven?
          If you don't know how many works you must do to get you into heaven, you must be in constant fear that when you die you're short of the requirement demanded of you by God. What a dreadful way to live.

          I'm born again, Rool. By the grace of God I have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone for my salvation. I have no fear of physical death. I know where I'm going. You don't have the same confidence, do you, because you believe it's up to your efforts to get you into heaven. The Catholic Church has lied to you.

          John 14:1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 “In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 “And where I go you know, and the way you know.

          “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
          We are either in the process of resisting God's truth or in the process of being shaped and molded by his truth … Charles Stanley

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Rool View Post

            I don't know. How do you know when you've got enough faith to get you to heaven?
            Romans 10:15For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 17The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
            Have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth ? Gal 4:16

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Calsgal View Post
              Just not true ....

              “Having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, Jesus made it His own body, by saying, ‘This is My body,’ that is, the symbol of My body. There could not have been a symbol, however, unless there was first a true body. An empty thing or phantom is incapable of a symbol. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new covenant to be sealed ‘in His blood,’ affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body that is not a body of flesh” (Against Marcion, 4.40).
              Tertullian is not considered a true Church Father by many Catholics, as he became a Montanist later in life, and may have died outside the Catholic Church. Nevertheless, this quote from him regarding the Stations of the Cross alludes to the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

              ” Similarly, too, touching the days of Stations, most think that they must not be present at the sacrificial prayers, on the ground that the Station must be dissolved by reception of the Lord’s Body. Does, then, the Eucharist cancel a service devoted to God, or bind it more to God? Will not your Station be more solemn if you have withal stood at God’s altar? When the Lord’s Body has been received and reserved each point is secured, both the participation of the sacrifice and the discharge of duty.”

              Justin Martyr (110–165) “the bread which our Christ gave us to offer in remembrance of the Body which He assumed for the sake of those who believe in Him, for whom He also suffered, and also to the cup which He taught us to offer in the Eucharist, in commemoration of His blood“(Dialogue with Trypho, 70).
              So what? Justin Martyr isn’t denying the Real Presence here. He is merely stating that the Eucharist is a commemoration - as does every Catholic priest every time the Eucharist is offering during a Mass (the priest repeats Jesus’ words from the Last Supper - “Do this in memory of me”). The fact that the Eucharist is a commemoration doesn’t mean it isn’t ALSO the real body and blood of Christ. It is both.

              Here is Justin Martyr affirming the doctrine of the Real Presence:
              “For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

              Athanasius (296–373) : “[W]hat He says is not fleshly but spiritual. For how many would the body suffice for eating, that it should become the food for the whole world? But for this reason He made mention of the ascension of the Son of Man into heaven, in order that He might draw them away from the bodily notion, and that from henceforth they might learn that the aforesaid flesh was heavenly eating from above and spiritual food given by Him.” (Festal Letter, 4.19)
              It makes me laugh when Protestants claim that certain Catholic saints didn’t believe in the Real Presence, for in effect they are making the absurd claim that the Catholic Church declares certain heretics to be saints! Any Catholic who publicly denies the doctrine of the Real Presence would be condemned as a heretic and risk excommunication from the Church.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by nan View Post

                Just what Church are you talking about?
                The Catholic Church of course.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by nan View Post

                  You haven't been around here very long, have you ...
                  According to the Sola Scriptura crowd, ALL Catholics attempt to discredit the Bible.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by illini1959 View Post

                    If any of them contradict scripture, they're wrong. Scripture doesn't say they are, so.....

                    sorrynotsorry.
                    I didn’t ask for your interpretation of Scripture. If you can’t cite even ONE ecf who didn’t accept the Real Presence in the Eucharist that means history and the early Church are against your interpretation of Scripture. I won’t be holding my breath while you wait for the penny to drop …

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by illini1959 View Post
                      27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.

                      He'll repay everyone according to their deeds - did they accept Him or reject Him?
                      What? You’re saying “deeds” is faith? You can’t be serious ... talk about twisting Scripture to suit yourself!

                      “deeds” and “works” are the same thing - and neither of them is faith or belief!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Calsgal View Post
                        Could you give us some examples of the kind of works God demands for salvation?
                        Here’s some clues:

                        “If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.” (John 15:10)

                        ”All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them.” (1John 3:23)

                        Rev 12:17 “Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.”

                        Rev 14:12, “Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keeps the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.


                        “Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”And he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth.” So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” (Luke 18:18-22)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Calsgal View Post
                          It was not until . 831 AD that (by Radbertus in his book The Body and Blood of the Lord) one first finds the notion suggested that "the substance of bread and wine is effectually changed into the flesh and blood of Christ" -- so that once the priest has consecrated it there is "nothing else in the Eucharist but the flesh and blood of Christ."
                          Transubstantiation was never at any time accepted by any part of the Church Universal ,whether Early-Patristic, Post-Nicene, Greek, Roman, or Proto-Protestant (alias Culdee or Waldensian etc.) until specifically the Roman Church proclaimed it dogmatically as an article of her own changing faith, at the 4th Lateran Council in 1215.
                          You're wrong. Please read the following extract from this article, EDIT PER MOD

                          "In summarizing the early Fathers’ teachings on Christ’s Real Presence, renowned Protestant historian of the early Church J. N. D. Kelly, writes: “Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood” (Early Christian Doctrines, 440).
                          From the Church’s early days, the Fathers referred to Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. Kelly writes: “Ignatius roundly declares that . . . [t]he bread is the flesh of Jesus, the cup his blood. Clearly he intends this realism to be taken strictly, for he makes it the basis of his argument against the Docetists’ denial of the reality of Christ’s body. . . . Irenaeus teaches that the bread and wine are really the Lord’s body and blood. His witness is, indeed, all the more impressive because he produces it quite incidentally while refuting the Gnostic and Docetic rejection of the Lord’s real humanity” (ibid., 197–98).

                          Ignatius of Antioch
                          “I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ . . . and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).
                          “Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

                          Justin Martyr
                          “For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

                          Irenaeus
                          “If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?” (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).
                          “He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?” (ibid., 5:2)""

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by balshan View Post

                            The real problem with the RCC doctrine you can never know, you can not trust Jesus' word.
                            That doesn't answer my question. How do you know when you have enough faith to be "saved'?

                            Is a little faith enough? If so, how much is "a little" and how do you measure it?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Rool View Post
                              Tertullian is not considered a true Church Father by many Catholics, as he became a Montanist later in life, and may have died outside the Catholic Church. Nevertheless, this quote from him regarding the Stations of the Cross alludes to the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

                              ” Similarly, too, touching the days of Stations, most think that they must not be present at the sacrificial prayers, on the ground that the Station must be dissolved by reception of the Lord’s Body. Does, then, the Eucharist cancel a service devoted to God, or bind it more to God? Will not your Station be more solemn if you have withal stood at God’s altar? When the Lord’s Body has been received and reserved each point is secured, both the participation of the sacrifice and the discharge of duty.”


                              So what? Justin Martyr isn’t denying the Real Presence here. He is merely stating that the Eucharist is a commemoration - as does every Catholic priest every time the Eucharist is offering during a Mass (the priest repeats Jesus’ words from the Last Supper - “Do this in memory of me”). The fact that the Eucharist is a commemoration doesn’t mean it isn’t ALSO the real body and blood of Christ. It is both.

                              Here is Justin Martyr affirming the doctrine of the Real Presence:
                              “For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).


                              It makes me laugh when Protestants claim that certain Catholic saints didn’t believe in the Real Presence, for in effect they are making the absurd claim that the Catholic Church declares certain heretics to be saints! Any Catholic who publicly denies the doctrine of the Real Presence would be condemned as a heretic and risk excommunication from the Church.
                              Oh what does the infallible leadership say about Tertullian.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Rool View Post
                                What? You’re saying “deeds” is faith? You can’t be serious ... talk about twisting Scripture to suit yourself!

                                “deeds” and “works” are the same thing - and neither of them is faith or belief!
                                No twisting scripture at all, that is what scripture states. Deeds/works do not save but after you are saved you will be changed. After being changed guess what. No one has ever said you can do what you like that is just RCs twisting what others say including James.

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