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The Holy Head of St. Catherine

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Og. View Post

    Yes that is true. The converse is not necessarily true though: if you need to be saved, it is because of sin. For example, the Old Testament uses the word Savior to mean God saves them from their enemies. Hebrews 5:7 speaks of God saving Jesus from death.
    It is because that one has a sinful disposition resulting from a carnal mind that they need a Savior not just to be delivered from sin but to have a new spiritual nature that pleases God.

    Now, whatever Mary had as a disposition she was pleasing God through God's grace not through her own merits!

    The greatest enemy (adversary) that humanity has is the carnal mind!

    To be carnally minded is death!

    God bless you,

    SeventhDay

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

      It is because that one has a sinful disposition resulting from a carnal mind that they need a Savior not just to be delivered from sin but to have a new spiritual nature that pleases God.

      Now, whatever Mary had as a disposition she was pleasing God through God's grace not through her own merits!

      The greatest enemy (adversary) that humanity has is the carnal mind!

      To be carnally minded is death!

      God bless you,

      SeventhDay
      I agree, Mary is not independently good or independently holy, no created thing is the source of its own goodness. Mary’s holiness is a gratuitous gift of God, which is why we call her Full of Grace.
      Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Og. View Post

        I agree, Mary is not independently good or independently holy, no created thing is the source of its own goodness. Mary’s holiness is a gratuitous gift of God, which is why we call her Full of Grace.
        Indeed!

        God bless you,

        SeventhDay

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by kmerian View Post
          I just told you! You seriously are still this confused?

          The Law says she must make atonement and reconcile herself to God!

          That is WHY she had to go and offer the blood of an innocent in her place as an offering for "SIN"....God's word, not my own. She probably even had to kill the dove herself!

          Catholics are always clueless as to what atonement is and why BLOOD must be shed to be made right with God. You guys do not even know the basics.


          What is clear at this point is you are avoiding the obvious issue, so I will ask you flat out.
          Only in Roman Catholicism is quoting the Word of God itself "avoiding the obvious issue."

          You are the one avoiding the obvious issue by never replying to my posts!

          LOL.

          Did Mary go to the temple to make a legally required sacrifice because she had just given birth?
          Of course! And WHY was Mary legally required to offer the sacrifice of the blood of an innocent on her behalf? The Word of God tells us WHY...

          "to make atonement for her"


          ...



          "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."- John F. Kennedy

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by SalusaSecondus View Post

            Rose petals lol. Needs more gold dust.

            Some of these RC “miracles” are too tawdry to be true.
            That sort of reminds me of the Roman Catholic story of St. Lucy. According to the RC fable, Lucy wanted to retain her virginity, but the governor of the town proclaimed that if she did not give up her virginity that she would be burned at the stake. Lucy was tied to the stake and the fire was lit, but the flames never touched her in any way, so the governor ordered that a sword be run though her heart - but Lucy did not die from the sword in her heart until a Roman Catholic priest could get to her with Holy Communion.
            RC's do know God, but the Bible indicates that it is a knowledge in condemnation, a knowledge enabling them to know things about themselves and the world around them, even though they suppress the truth of God which makes such knowledge possible.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Raynebeau View Post

              That sort of reminds me of the Roman Catholic story of St. Lucy. According to the RC fable, Lucy wanted to retain her virginity, but the governor of the town proclaimed that if she did not give up her virginity that she would be burned at the stake. Lucy was tied to the stake and the fire was lit, but the flames never touched her in any way, so the governor ordered that a sword be run though her heart - but Lucy did not die from the sword in her heart until a Roman Catholic priest could get to her with Holy Communion.
              Why do you roll your eyes at the story?
              Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Atemi View Post

                Only in Roman Catholicism is quoting the Word of God itself "avoiding the obvious issue."

                You are the one avoiding the obvious issue by never replying to my posts!

                LOL.



                Of course! And WHY was Mary legally required to offer the sacrifice of the blood of an innocent on her behalf? The Word of God tells us WHY...

                "to make atonement for her"


                ...


                Did Mary go to the temple to make a legally required sacrifice because she had just given birth?

                Of course!



                Good, so that is finally settled. Mary was only doing what the law requires of ALL women after they have given birth as required in Leviticus 12.


                Nothing more, nothing less.


                This crucifix is for us a book with hieroglyphics of might and power, to enable us to read in a second, at one glance, what it otherwise would take us five minutes to read in the Bible. We have often instructed poor slaves who cannot read. We have told them what Jesus has done for them, arid shown them the crucifix, and thus appealed to their eyes and ears in far less time than by any other method." ~ Rt. Rev. John Timon, Prefect to the Republic of Texas

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by kmerian View Post

                  Did Mary go to the temple to make a legally required sacrifice because she had just given birth?

                  Of course!



                  Good, so that is finally settled. Mary was only doing what the law requires of ALL women after they have given birth as required in Leviticus 12.


                  Nothing more, nothing less.

                  you forgot to say the real truth

                  To make atonement for her sins.....Child birth is not a sin.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by DMBD View Post
                    you forgot to say the real truth

                    To make atonement for her sins.....Child birth is not a sin.
                    No, it isn't.

                    But yet the law requires ALL women to make this mandatory sacrifice after giving birth.

                    It isn't optional.
                    This crucifix is for us a book with hieroglyphics of might and power, to enable us to read in a second, at one glance, what it otherwise would take us five minutes to read in the Bible. We have often instructed poor slaves who cannot read. We have told them what Jesus has done for them, arid shown them the crucifix, and thus appealed to their eyes and ears in far less time than by any other method." ~ Rt. Rev. John Timon, Prefect to the Republic of Texas

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by kmerian View Post
                      Mary was only doing what the law requires of ALL women after they have given birth as required in Leviticus 12.
                      In order to offer the blood of an innocent to make an offering for sin and reconcile with God.

                      Bloodshed of the innocent is required of sinners. The sinless have no need to make atonement.

                      Do Catholics know nothing about the sacrificial system at all?

                      ...
                      "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."- John F. Kennedy

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Atemi View Post

                        In order to offer the blood of an innocent to make an offering for sin and reconcile with God.

                        Bloodshed of the innocent is required of sinners. The sinless have no need to make atonement.

                        Do Catholics know nothing about the sacrificial system at all?

                        ...
                        And we are back to show me where this mandatory offering after childbirth is in fact optional.

                        "When the days of her purification are completed, for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest"

                        Not "she shall bring, if she has sinned", there is no option.

                        "Though the passage states that the new mother presents these offerings to the priest to receive atonement, we should not consider the act of giving birth to be in any case a sinful act. This is supported from our passage in two ways. First of all, in the order of the offerings the burnt offering was offered first and then the sin offering followed. The order was reversed when sin was at issue. When an offering was made in response to the commission of sin, the sin offering preceded the burnt offering. The order of the offerings in Leviticus 12 suggests that the personal sin of the mother is not the issue. " (Dr. Mark Rooker, Dallas Theological Seminary, Senior Professor of Old Testament and Hebrew at Southeastern Baptist Theological seminary)

                        "Two things are noticeable here: first, that the burnt offering, symbolizing self-devotion, is far more costly and important than the sin offering, which had not to be offered for any individual personal sin, but only for human sin, “which had been indirectly manifested in her bodily condition” " (The Pulpit Commentary)

                        "Further confirmation that a woman’s impurity is not a moral failure comes from observing that when her purification period is completed, she once again becomes “clean” (vv. 7, 8). Her defilement is a ritual one, not a moral one. When the priest effects expiation on her behalf, he in effect recognizes that her uncleanness has already been eliminated. She is not “forgiven” in the sense that is implied in the previous cases where “purification offerings” are required (cf. 4:1–5:13). Indeed, at no point does chapter 12 say or suggest that the either the priest or God has judged the woman to have “sinned” or “brought guilt” on herself or the community. Rather, once she brings the required offerings, she is “cleansed” from a natural impurity that has only temporarily restricted her normal participation in the life and worship of the community." (Samuel E. Balentine,Professor of Old Testament and Director of Graduate Studies, Union Presbyterian Seminary)

                        "It is clear that the sin-offering was not primarily an offering for real sins, but for the unconscious violation of mere taboos. It was demanded in the case of actual sins only sporadically, and then only to a slight degree ." (Jewish Encyclopedia)


                        All the scholarship on this issue is against you, so unless you are saying childbirth is a sin. You have no case.

                        Is childbirth a sin?
                        This crucifix is for us a book with hieroglyphics of might and power, to enable us to read in a second, at one glance, what it otherwise would take us five minutes to read in the Bible. We have often instructed poor slaves who cannot read. We have told them what Jesus has done for them, arid shown them the crucifix, and thus appealed to their eyes and ears in far less time than by any other method." ~ Rt. Rev. John Timon, Prefect to the Republic of Texas

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by kmerian View Post
                          And we are back to show me where this mandatory offering after childbirth is in fact optional.
                          Why would I do that when I said very clearly that blood offerings for sin were required of all sinners under Jewish Law?

                          How else can Mary make atonement without offering the blood of innocents for sin?

                          All the scholarship on this issue is against you
                          Actually, the scholarship is against you. I am not the one who so foolishly said SIN offerings are NOT for SIN.

                          Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

                          , so unless you are saying childbirth is a sin.
                          Childbirth is not a sin.

                          She did not offer childbirth offerings. She offered a burnt offering and an offering for SIN.

                          Not my word. God's Word.

                          You have no case.
                          Except the rock solid case that Mary went to the Temple to make an offering of innocent blood on her behalf for sin to make atonement....and Mary is the ONLY one recorded as having done so in the entirety of the NT.

                          It is almost like God is trying to tell us something loud and clear.

                          ...
                          "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."- John F. Kennedy

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Atemi View Post

                            Why would I do that when I said very clearly that blood offerings for sin were required of all sinners under Jewish Law?

                            How else can Mary make atonement without offering the blood of innocents for sin?
                            Blood offerings for sin were required of EVERYONE under Jewish law.




                            Actually, the scholarship is against you. I am not the one who so foolishly said SIN offerings are NOT for SIN.

                            Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
                            If the scholarship is against me, why do you keep snipping it out?

                            So the Jewish Encyclopedia and accomplished Christian scholars are all fools.

                            Ok.





                            Childbirth is not a sin.

                            She did not offer childbirth offerings. She offered a burnt offering and an offering for SIN.

                            Not my word. God's Word.
                            I am just going to let that sit there.

                            And respond only with the Word of God:
                            "Speak to the sons of Israel, saying: 'When a woman gives birth and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean for seven days, as in the days of her menstruation she shall be unclean. 3On the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. 4Then she shall remain in the blood of her purification for thirty-three days; she shall not touch any consecrated thing, nor enter the sanctuary until the days of her purification are completed""When the days of her purification are completed, for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest ..."

                            a "childbirth offering" is exactly what she gave. As the law requires


                            Except the rock solid case that Mary went to the Temple to make an offering of innocent blood on her behalf for sin to make atonement....and Mary is the ONLY one recorded as having done so in the entirety of the NT.

                            It is almost like God is trying to tell us something loud and clear.

                            ...
                            That as the handmaiden of the Lord, Mary kept the law. And her husband with her.

                            Nothing more.

                            The "foolish" scholars only back me up:

                            "Though the passage states that the new mother presents these offerings to the priest to receive atonement, we should not consider the act of giving birth to be in any case a sinful act. This is supported from our passage in two ways. First of all, in the order of the offerings the burnt offering was offered first and then the sin offering followed. The order was reversed when sin was at issue. When an offering was made in response to the commission of sin, the sin offering preceded the burnt offering. The order of the offerings in Leviticus 12 suggests that the personal sin of the mother is not the issue. " (Dr. Mark Rooker, Dallas Theological Seminary, Senior Professor of Old Testament and Hebrew at Southeastern Baptist Theological seminary)

                            "Two things are noticeable here: first, that the burnt offering, symbolizing self-devotion, is far more costly and important than the sin offering, which had not to be offered for any individual personal sin, but only for human sin, “which had been indirectly manifested in her bodily condition” " (The Pulpit Commentary)

                            "Further confirmation that a woman’s impurity is not a moral failure comes from observing that when her purification period is completed, she once again becomes “clean” (vv. 7, 8). Her defilement is a ritual one, not a moral one. When the priest effects expiation on her behalf, he in effect recognizes that her uncleanness has already been eliminated. She is not “forgiven” in the sense that is implied in the previous cases where “purification offerings” are required (cf. 4:1–5:13). Indeed, at no point does chapter 12 say or suggest that the either the priest or God has judged the woman to have “sinned” or “brought guilt” on herself or the community. Rather, once she brings the required offerings, she is “cleansed” from a natural impurity that has only temporarily restricted her normal participation in the life and worship of the community." (Samuel E. Balentine,Professor of Old Testament and Director of Graduate Studies, Union Presbyterian Seminary)

                            "It is clear that the sin-offering was not primarily an offering for real sins, but for the unconscious violation of mere taboos. It was demanded in the case of actual sins only sporadically, (Jewish Encyclopedia)


                            But you know better?
                            This crucifix is for us a book with hieroglyphics of might and power, to enable us to read in a second, at one glance, what it otherwise would take us five minutes to read in the Bible. We have often instructed poor slaves who cannot read. We have told them what Jesus has done for them, arid shown them the crucifix, and thus appealed to their eyes and ears in far less time than by any other method." ~ Rt. Rev. John Timon, Prefect to the Republic of Texas

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by kmerian View Post

                              No, it isn't.

                              But yet the law requires ALL women to make this mandatory sacrifice after giving birth.

                              It isn't optional.
                              Read please.....

                              These are the regulations for the woman who gives birth to a boy or a girl.
                              8 But if she cannot afford a lamb, she is to bring two doves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’”

                              There is a sin offering........

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by DMBD View Post
                                There is a sin offering........
                                In the Catholic mind, when God speaks of an offering for sin He really really means an offering that is NOT for sin.

                                Catholics will go out of their way to try and explain how God does not know what He is talking about.

                                ...

                                "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."- John F. Kennedy

                                Comment

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