Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

Do Adventists recognize divisions in the Law

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • TomL
    started a topic Do Adventists recognize divisions in the Law

    Do Adventists recognize divisions in the Law


    At

    Hebrews 7:12 (KJV)
    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    We read of a change to the law

    Is the law a unit which must be observed or rejected in whole or does the law have different sections some of which may be retained and others which may be superseded


    In the CARM section
    1. Questions About Doctrine
    1. Civil - Deals with disputes between individuals. Expired with the demise of the Jewish civil government
      1. Be just with the poor, (Lev. 19:15)
      2. Cattle, of neighbor (Deut. 22:1-4)
      3. Children, rebellious (Deut. 21:18-21)
      4. Debt (Lev. 23:34-43; Deut. 31:10)
      5. Divorce (Deut. 22:19)
      6. Dress, attire (Deut. 22:5)
      7. Do not hate in your heart (Lev. 19:17)
      8. Inheritance (Num. 18:26; 26:53-56; 36:8-12)
      9. Justice practices (Lev. 24:17-23)
      10. Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
      11. Landmarks (Deuteronomy 19:14)
      12. Property redemption (Lev. 25)
      13. Murder and killing (Deut. 21:1-4)
      14. Retain just scales in commerce (Lev. 19:35f)
      15. Robbery, extortion, false witness, and restitution (Lev. 6:1-7)
      16. Sabbath breaking punishment (Num. 15:32-36)
      17. Theft (Deut. 5:19; Lev. 19:11)
      18. Warfare (Deut. 20:1-20)
    2. Ceremonial - Expired with the fulfillment of priestly work of Christ (Matt. 3:15)
      1. Cleaning house of leper (Lev. 14:33-57; Num. 5:2)
      2. Festivals (Lev. 23:1-25; Nu. 29:39)
      3. Laws on animals for food (Lev. 11:1-47)
      4. Law of Atonement (Lev. 16:1-28;17:1-16)
      5. Offerings (Num. 29:39)
      6. Priest, consecration of (Ex. 29:1-46)
      7. Priestly duties (Lev. 7:1-37)
      8. Regulations for Priests (Lev. 21,22)
      9. Various sacrificial offerings for sin (Lev. 1,2,3,4,5,6)
    3. Moral - No Expiration because it is based on God's character. "You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy," (Lev. 19:2)
      1. Idolatry (Lev. 26:1-13)
      2. Love God (Deut. 6:4)
      3. Love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18)
      4. Oppress your neighbor (Lev. 19:13)
      5. Stealing or lying (Lev. 19:11)
      6. Sacrifice children to Molech forbidden (Lev. 20:1-5)
      7. Sexual sins: adultery, incest, bestiality, homosexuality, etc. (Lev. 18:20; 20:9-21; Num. 5:12-15)
    If the law is divisible how do we decide what remains viable and what has been superseded.

    Do we assume all stipulations carry over from the old covenant to the New and only if explicitly noted as having been terminated are we then free from observance or do we only observe that which is explicitly reaffirmed in the new covenant ?

    How does this effect Observation of the Seventh day Sabbath or does it really ?
    Last edited by TomL; 12-23-18, 05:30 AM.

  • mathias
    replied
    Originally posted by Greg Goodchild View Post
    mathias;n5923963][ A Priest Forever ]
    So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You." Hebrews 5:5

    It is yet far more evident if, According to the order of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment,
    but according to the power of an endless life.
    By so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. Hebrews 7:15-22
    And when will the new covenant bring about His second coming in your theology? Jesus died for us 2000 years ago and yet we are still here on this earth and sin continues to be active in the world. When will it end in your theology?
    John 3:36
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Greg Goodchild
    replied
    [QUOTE=mathias;n5923963][ A Priest Forever ]
    So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You." Hebrews 5:5

    It is yet far more evident if, According to the order of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment,
    but according to the power of an endless life.
    By so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. Hebrews 7:15-22[/QUO

    And when will the new covenant bring about His second coming in your theology? Jesus died for us 2000 years ago and yet we are still here on this earth and sin continues to be active in the world. When will it end in your theology?

    Leave a comment:


  • mathias
    replied
    [ A Priest Forever ]
    So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You." Hebrews 5:5
    Originally posted by TomL View Post
    Do Adventists recognize divisions in the Law

    Hebrews 7:12 (KJV)
    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    Moral - No Expiration because it is based on God's character. "You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy," (Lev. 19:2)
    Idolatry (Lev. 26:1-13)

    Do we assume all stipulations carry over from the old covenant to the New ... ?

    How does this effect Observation of the ...Sabbath... ?

    ____________________________________
    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent
    It is yet far more evident if, According to the order of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment,
    but according to the power of an endless life.
    By so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. Hebrews 7:15-22
    Last edited by mathias; 04-20-19, 02:36 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Greg Goodchild
    replied
    Originally posted by TomL View Post
    At

    Hebrews 7:12 (KJV)
    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    We read of a change to the law

    Is the law a unit which must be observed or rejected in whole or does the law have different sections some of which may be retained and others which may be superseded


    In the CARM section
    1. Questions About Doctrine
    1. Civil - Deals with disputes between individuals. Expired with the demise of the Jewish civil government
      1. Be just with the poor, (Lev. 19:15)
      2. Cattle, of neighbor (Deut. 22:1-4)
      3. Children, rebellious (Deut. 21:18-21)
      4. Debt (Lev. 23:34-43; Deut. 31:10)
      5. Divorce (Deut. 22:19)
      6. Dress, attire (Deut. 22:5)
      7. Do not hate in your heart (Lev. 19:17)
      8. Inheritance (Num. 18:26; 26:53-56; 36:8-12)
      9. Justice practices (Lev. 24:17-23)
      10. Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
      11. Landmarks (Deuteronomy 19:14)
      12. Property redemption (Lev. 25)
      13. Murder and killing (Deut. 21:1-4)
      14. Retain just scales in commerce (Lev. 19:35f)
      15. Robbery, extortion, false witness, and restitution (Lev. 6:1-7)
      16. Sabbath breaking punishment (Num. 15:32-36)
      17. Theft (Deut. 5:19; Lev. 19:11)
      18. Warfare (Deut. 20:1-20)
    2. Ceremonial - Expired with the fulfillment of priestly work of Christ (Matt. 3:15)
      1. Cleaning house of leper (Lev. 14:33-57; Num. 5:2)
      2. Festivals (Lev. 23:1-25; Nu. 29:39)
      3. Laws on animals for food (Lev. 11:1-47)
      4. Law of Atonement (Lev. 16:1-28;17:1-16)
      5. Offerings (Num. 29:39)
      6. Priest, consecration of (Ex. 29:1-46)
      7. Priestly duties (Lev. 7:1-37)
      8. Regulations for Priests (Lev. 21,22)
      9. Various sacrificial offerings for sin (Lev. 1,2,3,4,5,6)
    3. Moral - No Expiration because it is based on God's character. "You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy," (Lev. 19:2)
      1. Idolatry (Lev. 26:1-13)
      2. Love God (Deut. 6:4)
      3. Love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18)
      4. Oppress your neighbor (Lev. 19:13)
      5. Stealing or lying (Lev. 19:11)
      6. Sacrifice children to Molech forbidden (Lev. 20:1-5)
      7. Sexual sins: adultery, incest, bestiality, homosexuality, etc. (Lev. 18:20; 20:9-21; Num. 5:12-15)
    If the law is divisible how do we decide what remains viable and what has been superseded.

    Do we assume all stipulations carry over from the old covenant to the New and only if explicitly noted as having been terminated are we then free from observance or do we only observe that which is explicitly reaffirmed in the new covenant ?

    How does this effect Observation of the Seventh day Sabbath or does it really ?
    We figure these things out by the Word of God. For example the Bible says that when Jesus died on the Cross we no longer need to sacrifice animals to tell us about the death of the Lamb of God, that was completed at Calvary. When it comes to Sabbath, and all of the other nine commandments, they are still in effect and are upheld by the intercessory ministry of Jesus in heaven.

    Leave a comment:


  • B Student
    replied
    Originally posted by Icyspark View Post


    Hi 1stthings1st,

    First things first. With a flippant wave of your hand you just dismissed four explicit and distinctive words used in Scripture to identify four "divisions in the law." You supplied ZERO evidence for your assertion that these are merely "all synonyms."





    I've explained this to you and others on this forum numerous times. Let me break it down for you . . . yet again:
    1. There was only one set of commandments.
    2. This set of commandments has a numeral attached to it.
    3. This numeral constrains this set of commandments to being only said numeral. Not 9. Not 633. Just 10.
    4. Ask any child how many commandments are in the TEN Commandments and they will have no problem telling you, "Ten!"
    5. This set of "Ten Commandments" was written on STONE.
    6. All the other "decrees1 and regulations2, the laws3" were written on paper.
    7. The Ten Commandments were written by God's own finger.
    8. All the other decrees1 and regulations2, the laws3" were written by the hand of Moses.
    9. Then Ten Commandments were written by God's own finger a SECOND TIME.
    10. The Ten Commandments were spoken audibly for all Israel to hear.
    11. All the other decrees1 and regulations2, the laws3" were spoken by Moses.
    12. After God proclaimed the Ten Commandments "in a loud voice to the whole assembly," Moses says that, "He added NOTHING more." (Deut. 5:22)
    13. The set of Ten Commandments; written on stone; by God's own finger; and spoken audibly for all the people to hear; is identified as "His COVENANT, the Ten Commandments."
    14. The covenant of Ten Commandments comprises ONLY 10 commandments.
    God didn't just randomly spring these commandments upon His creatures at Mount Sinai and only then designate these transgressions as sin. The God of the Bible does not change like shifting shadows. Several of the Ten Commandments are explicitly identified before the commandments were codified at Sinai. Cain knew it was a sin to murder his brother. Joseph knew it was a "sin against God" to have sex with a married woman. The Sabbath is described in Genesis almost in verbatim language as it is in the Exodus account and Jesus says, "the Sabbath was MADE FOR HUMANS." Note that He does not say that it was made for Jews.

    The old covenant/agreement was made between the Jews and God. What they agreed to did was not the problem. "God found fault with the people," because "they did not remain faithful to" their agreement (i.e. they didn't keep their end of the bargain).

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
    Moses seems to have combined all the decrees, regulations, laws and commands into the Old Covenant, both what God spoke directly to the people and all that Moses conveyed to the people on God’s behalf. All of these things were a binding part of the covenant:

    Ex 34: Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.

    Num 15: 22 And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses, 23 Even all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations;

    Lev 18:4 ‘You are to perform My judgments and keep My statutes, to live in accord with them; I am the LORD your God.

    Lev 27:34 These are the commandments which the LORD commanded Moses for the sons of Israel at Mount Sinai.

    Deut 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

    Deut 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

    The covenant is described in Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers. The ordinances of Exodus 21 to 23 which followed the commands of Exodus 20, were included in the covenant (Ex 24: 3-8). It is interesting to note that the 10 commandments were associated with the Law (Ex 24:12). The Law was further developed as part of the Covenant in Exodus 25 to 31. Then Moses went up again and received further commands which were part of the covenant (Ex 34:10-11, 32, 35:1) and are described in Ex 35:2-20. These commands were further developed in Ex 40:1-16 and Lev 1 to 7. Laws of cleanliness were also added to the covenant (Lev 11 to 15) and many other statues, judgements, ordinances and laws (chapters 16 to 25 and 27). All of these were part of the covenant of Sinai:

    Lev 26: 44 ‘Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I so abhor them as to destroy them, breaking My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God. 45 ‘But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am the LORD.’” 46 These are the statutes and ordinances and laws which the LORD established between Himself and the sons of Israel through Moses at Mount Sinai.

    In summary and conclusion: all of the laws, statues, commands, judgements and ordinances were part of the Old Covenant at Sinai (along with further judgements added in Num 5&6, 8-10 at which point they left Sinai as per Num 10:11-12).

    Further commands were appended to the covenant (Num 19, 28-30, 36) which was renewed across the Jordan in Deuteronomy (Deut 29:1).

    That covenant at Jordan would include for example everything listed in Deuteronomy chapter 12 to chapter 26, which are described as statues, judgements and commands (Deut 12: 1, 27:1) along with the blessings and curses of Deuteronomy chapters 27 and 28 and everything else described earlier.

    The question then is: are Christians under the charges, statues, judgments, commandments, laws of the Old Covenant?

    Many of the Those Laws reflect eternal spiritual principles that existed before and after the Law, so Christians are still bound to them in that sense.

    However, in as much as being bound the actual Old Covenant with its promises and curses, Christians are not. Furthermore the statues and regulations of that Old Covenant which are not repeated in the New Testament, are not binding upon Christians, because they are not bound to that Covenant.
    That would mean that work prohibitions on the seventh day of the week are not binding upon Christians.

    Having reviewed your list of proofs, I see no real evidence that keeping of the seventh day work restrictions of the OC are still binding on Christians. Here are my initial thoughts:
    1. How can that statement be true? There are many commands in the OT besides the 10 (e.g. Deut 5:31, Deut chapter 6 etc.)
    2. How is that a proof?
    3. How is that a proof?
    4. How is that a proof?
    5. Why would you try to use ‘written on stone’ as a proof that Christians are bound to them? 2Cor 3:3 specifically states the New Covenant has nothing to do with the covenant written on stone. Doesn’t that destroy your argument?
    6. Written on paper, so?…the ones written on paper are lumped with the ones written on stone in 2Cor 3:3 as pertaining to the Old.
    7. What does “written by the finger of God” prove? The rest of the Law was spoken by God’s mouth. Is the word of God in any form perishable? (Isa 40:8) So what does the stone prove?
    8. As spoken to him by God (Num 15:22). Are you saying what God spoke to Moses on the mountain and throughout the rest of the OT was somehow more perishable or less valuable?
    9. See point 7 above
    10. And the rest were spoken audibly for Moses to hear. Are they somehow less valuable? Wasn’t there a reason the Lord didn’t speak everything else? Didn’t the people request Moses to be the intermediary? (Deut 5:25-28)
    11. As Spoken to him by God, again, are they somehow less valuable? Was not Israel bound equally to these as to the other 10 as part of the Old Covenant at Sinai and Jordan (Deut 5:31-33)?
    12. He added nothing more directly to their hearing. Does that mean what God has spoken to Moses earlier on the mountain was not included in the covenant? Why not? And all that God through Moses would command them to obey (Deut 5:31-33), was that not part of the OC?
    13. The 10 written on stone are a part of the covenant. Why not think of them as an executive summary? It’s not all of the covenant; Israel was bound to all that God commanded them through Moses (Deut 5:31-33)
    14. Is there really a Covenant of just the 10 commandments? I don’t think that is supported by scripture, and I suggest that you’re wrong on this if you are limiting the OC exclusively to them. The Mosaic Covenant included all that God commanded Moses (including but not limited to the 10 commandments). Why are you excluding everything else that God showed Moses on the mountain if they were required to obey everything else as part of the agreement? (Deut 10:12-13, 11:1, 12:1. Deut 27:1)

    Leave a comment:


  • Icyspark
    replied
    Originally posted by 1stthings1st View Post

    Decrees, regulations, laws, and commands, are all synonyms -- commands from God to be obeyed by people.

    Hi 1stthings1st,

    First things first. With a flippant wave of your hand you just dismissed four explicit and distinctive words used in Scripture to identify four "divisions in the law." You supplied ZERO evidence for your assertion that these are merely "all synonyms."


    Even if you were to divide the law into "decrees, regulations, laws, and commands" do you believe that the scripture elsewhere indicates which divisions would continue under the New Covenant and which ones wouldn't (keeping in mind that the Old Covenant was only given to Israel)? If you do, where would I find that scripture?

    I've explained this to you and others on this forum numerous times. Let me break it down for you . . . yet again:
    1. There was only one set of commandments.
    2. This set of commandments has a numeral attached to it.
    3. This numeral constrains this set of commandments to being only said numeral. Not 9. Not 633. Just 10.
    4. Ask any child how many commandments are in the TEN Commandments and they will have no problem telling you, "Ten!"
    5. This set of "Ten Commandments" was written on STONE.
    6. All the other "decrees1 and regulations2, the laws3" were written on paper.
    7. The Ten Commandments were written by God's own finger.
    8. All the other decrees1 and regulations2, the laws3" were written by the hand of Moses.
    9. Then Ten Commandments were written by God's own finger a SECOND TIME.
    10. The Ten Commandments were spoken audibly for all Israel to hear.
    11. All the other decrees1 and regulations2, the laws3" were spoken by Moses.
    12. After God proclaimed the Ten Commandments "in a loud voice to the whole assembly," Moses says that, "He added NOTHING more." (Deut. 5:22)
    13. The set of Ten Commandments; written on stone; by God's own finger; and spoken audibly for all the people to hear; is identified as "His COVENANT, the Ten Commandments."
    14. The covenant of Ten Commandments comprises ONLY 10 commandments.
    God didn't just randomly spring these commandments upon His creatures at Mount Sinai and only then designate these transgressions as sin. The God of the Bible does not change like shifting shadows. Several of the Ten Commandments are explicitly identified before the commandments were codified at Sinai. Cain knew it was a sin to murder his brother. Joseph knew it was a "sin against God" to have sex with a married woman. The Sabbath is described in Genesis almost in verbatim language as it is in the Exodus account and Jesus says, "the Sabbath was MADE FOR HUMANS." Note that He does not say that it was made for Jews.

    The old covenant/agreement was made between the Jews and God. What they agreed to did was not the problem. "God found fault with the people," because "they did not remain faithful to" their agreement (i.e. they didn't keep their end of the bargain).

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

    Leave a comment:


  • 1stthings1st
    replied
    Originally posted by Icyspark View Post


    Hi 1stthings1st,

    How about this:
    2 Kings 17:34-41
    To this day they persist in their former practices. They neither worship the Lord nor adhere to the decrees1 and regulations2, the laws3 and commands4 that the Lord gave the descendants of Jacob, whom he named Israel. When the Lord made a covenant with the Israelites, he commanded them: “Do not worship any other gods or bow down to them, serve them or sacrifice to them. But the Lord, who brought you up out of Egypt with mighty power and outstretched arm, is the one you must worship. To him you shall bow down and to him offer sacrifices. You must always be careful to keep the decrees1 and regulations2, the laws3 and commands4 he wrote for you. Do not worship other gods. Do not forget the covenant I have made with you, and do not worship other gods. Rather, worship the Lord your God; it is he who will deliver you from the hand of all your enemies.”

    They would not listen, however, but persisted in their former practices. Even while these people were worshiping the Lord, they were serving their idols. To this day their children and grandchildren continue to do as their ancestors did.
    • So, who made these divisions in the "law"?
    • How many commands are there in the Ten Commandment Covenant?
    • If it's all just one law, why is there a numeral attached to the commandments written on stone?
    • After God spoke the Ten Commandment Covenant for all Israel to hear, why does Moses say that, "He added NO MORE"?
    I should also note that it is not just Adventists who note divisions in the law. Even CARM's very own Matt Slick makes note of civil, ceremonial and moral divisions.

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
    Decrees, regulations, laws, and commands, are all synonyms -- commands from God to be obeyed by people.

    Even if you were to divide the law into "decrees, regulations, laws, and commands" do you believe that the scripture elsewhere indicates which divisions would continue under the New Covenant and which ones wouldn't (keeping in mind that the Old Covenant was only given to Israel)? If you do, where would I find that scripture?

    Leave a comment:


  • commen tater
    replied
    That if you think your salvation is dependent upon you following the law, you are in a mess o' hurt. It isn't about when you worship, it is about who.

    “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. “But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! “For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. “For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.“I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” Galatians 2:15-21 NASB

    You have not addressed the fact that Jesus pointed out that the ceremonial law about a jewish male child was to be circumcised on the eighth day even if that day was a Sabbath, and he meant a law that was specific about a circumcision of the flesh, took precedence over the fourth commandment. Even the people that God gave that commandment to, the Jews, recognize that it is a ritual law and that it was not meant for Gentiles, except those converting to Judaism.

    Leave a comment:


  • SDAchristian
    replied
    Originally posted by commen tater View Post
    Paul makes it plain in Galatians 5:3 that you are obligated to keep the whole Law, all 613 mitzvot.
    AV Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified{G1344 dikaioo} by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    Paul qualifies his statement with "... whosoever of you are justified{G1344 dikaioo} by the law ...", what does this mean to you, by Paul using it ???

    Yours in Christ, Michael

    Leave a comment:


  • SDAchristian
    replied
    Originally posted by commen tater View Post
    What I do claim is what the Bible says and what the people that the Law was given to say, and that is that the Sabbath was given only to Israel. It was a sign between God and Israel, the sign of the (Old) Covenant between God and Israel. It was never commanded of Gentiles who became Christians.
    AV Ro 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

    Is Jesus a part of Israel ???

    AV Ga 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    If you are Christ's, does that not make you Abraham's seed too, in Paul's understanding ???

    Yours in Christ, Michael

    Leave a comment:


  • SDAchristian
    replied
    Originally posted by SDAchristian View Post
    Then maybe you have the Words of GOD, changing Sabbath to the first day of the week, with scriptures ???
    For reference.
    Originally posted by commen tater View Post
    By the way, I do not claim that the Sabbath was changed from the seventh day to the first. You are accusing me of something that I have never done.
    The answer to my question from your response, is, you do not have those words.

    "Then maybe ...", was a query for "the Words of GOD", not accusation.

    What were your reasons to take the question, as an accusation, instead of a query ???

    Yours in Christ, Michael

    Leave a comment:


  • commen tater
    replied
    Of course they were guiltless. Just like Jesus was when he touched the leper. The law that he broke was ceremonial, a ritual law.

    By the way, I do not claim that the Sabbath was changed from the seventh day to the first. You are accusing me of something that I have never done. What I do claim is what the Bible says and what the people that the Law was given to say, and that is that the Sabbath was given only to Israel. It was a sign between God and Israel, the sign of the (Old) Covenant between God and Israel. It was never commanded of Gentiles who became Christians.

    "But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. Exodus 31:13 NASB

    If you wish to go to church on Saturday, by all means do so. If you hold one day above another, then that is fine. However, you must not judge your brother in Romans 14 who holds all days to be the same. But be advised. If you are going to put yourself under the Law, you cannot pick and choose. Paul makes it plain in Galatians 5:3 that you are obligated to keep the whole Law, all 613 mitzvot.

    Leave a comment:


  • SDAchristian
    replied
    If you have an issue with my username here at CARM, without mis-quoting it, I suggest you use my name, Michael.
    Originally posted by commen tater View Post
    SDAc, you haven't addressed the simple fact that the law that required a Jewish male to be circumcised on the eighth day, even if it fell on a Sabbath, took precedence over the fourth commandment.
    There were a lot of activities that fell on Sabbath.

    AV 1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

    Advanced Subject during this time of sin, is the precedence of, How GOD judges Righteousness, and How GOD judges sins/"All unrighteousness".

    Are you bold enough to go against what GOD/Jesus/the Spirit says ???

    Here is my answer to your objection again.
    Originally posted by SDAchristian View Post
    AV Mt 12:5-7 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is [one] greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

    From this verse, are you going to accuse of "guilt" then ???
    Jesus declared them "guiltless". What are you going to declare them guilty, against Jesus' Word ???

    AV Mt 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

    Do you realize the consequences of going against Jesus' Words ???
    Originally posted by commen tater View Post
    And if you are wondering who gave the command regarding this, please go back and read Leviticus 12:1 again. It makes it plain that it was God.
    It's plain to see, you seek a legalist position(Where the Law is more important than the Lawgiver.), instead of "I will have mercy, and not sacrifice ...".
    Originally posted by commen tater View Post
    The fourth commandment is a ceremonial law, a mere shadow of the things that were to come, the reality of which was Christ.
    That is your stated opinion without Bible support, and NOT the Word of GOD. So in your Opinion, is the whole of the Decalogue, ceremonial(or type) ??? What replaced the other nine in anti-type, in the Decalogue ???

    How does GOD judge, What is sin ???

    AV 1C 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.

    Please update me, on the NT/NC definition of sin, with scriptures, that need Jesus' atonement ???

    Then maybe you have the Words of GOD, changing Sabbath to the first day of the week, with scriptures ???

    AV Hb 4:9-11 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

    How can you change what GOD did, in rest ???

    Yours in Christ, Michael



    Leave a comment:


  • SDAchristian
    replied
    Originally posted by 1stthings1st View Post
    One thing that I notice that you are not doing, is providing a biblical basis for Adventism's division of the law. Can you do that?
    AV Mt 23:23-24 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

    Note: Jesus use of plurals here.

    Can Jesus make divisions in the Law(between small things and "the weightier [matters] of the law"), without objection from you ???

    The Pharisees could not without 'swallow'ing "a camel".

    Yours in Christ, Michael

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X