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Do Adventists recognize divisions in the Law

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  • TomL
    started a topic Do Adventists recognize divisions in the Law

    Do Adventists recognize divisions in the Law


    At

    Hebrews 7:12 (KJV)
    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    We read of a change to the law

    Is the law a unit which must be observed or rejected in whole or does the law have different sections some of which may be retained and others which may be superseded


    In the CARM section
    1. Questions About Doctrine
    1. Civil - Deals with disputes between individuals. Expired with the demise of the Jewish civil government
      1. Be just with the poor, (Lev. 19:15)
      2. Cattle, of neighbor (Deut. 22:1-4)
      3. Children, rebellious (Deut. 21:18-21)
      4. Debt (Lev. 23:34-43; Deut. 31:10)
      5. Divorce (Deut. 22:19)
      6. Dress, attire (Deut. 22:5)
      7. Do not hate in your heart (Lev. 19:17)
      8. Inheritance (Num. 18:26; 26:53-56; 36:8-12)
      9. Justice practices (Lev. 24:17-23)
      10. Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
      11. Landmarks (Deuteronomy 19:14)
      12. Property redemption (Lev. 25)
      13. Murder and killing (Deut. 21:1-4)
      14. Retain just scales in commerce (Lev. 19:35f)
      15. Robbery, extortion, false witness, and restitution (Lev. 6:1-7)
      16. Sabbath breaking punishment (Num. 15:32-36)
      17. Theft (Deut. 5:19; Lev. 19:11)
      18. Warfare (Deut. 20:1-20)
    2. Ceremonial - Expired with the fulfillment of priestly work of Christ (Matt. 3:15)
      1. Cleaning house of leper (Lev. 14:33-57; Num. 5:2)
      2. Festivals (Lev. 23:1-25; Nu. 29:39)
      3. Laws on animals for food (Lev. 11:1-47)
      4. Law of Atonement (Lev. 16:1-28;17:1-16)
      5. Offerings (Num. 29:39)
      6. Priest, consecration of (Ex. 29:1-46)
      7. Priestly duties (Lev. 7:1-37)
      8. Regulations for Priests (Lev. 21,22)
      9. Various sacrificial offerings for sin (Lev. 1,2,3,4,5,6)
    3. Moral - No Expiration because it is based on God's character. "You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy," (Lev. 19:2)
      1. Idolatry (Lev. 26:1-13)
      2. Love God (Deut. 6:4)
      3. Love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18)
      4. Oppress your neighbor (Lev. 19:13)
      5. Stealing or lying (Lev. 19:11)
      6. Sacrifice children to Molech forbidden (Lev. 20:1-5)
      7. Sexual sins: adultery, incest, bestiality, homosexuality, etc. (Lev. 18:20; 20:9-21; Num. 5:12-15)
    If the law is divisible how do we decide what remains viable and what has been superseded.

    Do we assume all stipulations carry over from the old covenant to the New and only if explicitly noted as having been terminated are we then free from observance or do we only observe that which is explicitly reaffirmed in the new covenant ?

    How does this effect Observation of the Seventh day Sabbath or does it really ?
    Last edited by TomL; 12-23-18, 06:30 AM.

  • SDAchristian
    replied
    Originally posted by Albur Tan View Post
    Yes, according to the Bible, the covenant was “everything that the lord has said” and that is what Moses wrote in the Book of the covenant/law that was dedicated as described in Hebrews 9:18-20 which is an almost word for word repeat of Exodus 24:1-9.
    Then you have the agreement/covenant in Exodus 34:27-28 being called the 10 commandments- which is an inaccurate translation from the Hebrew that doesn’t use their word for ‘commandment’. It is the same in Deut 4:13 and also Deut 10:4.
    AV Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
    AV Ex 34:28 . And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten{H6235 `eser} commandments{H1697 dabar}.

    You made your case worse for meaning, by pointing this out. Are we going to discuss GOD's Word semantics then ???

    Check Question: Do you believe that "ten-of the∙words" are not a ‘commandment’ then ???
    AV Jn 5:45-47 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

    Are you aware of Jesus' testimony to all believers, of being reviewed by Moses for truthfulness, Jesus' personal witness of the Truth that Moses was shown ???

    Yours in Christ, Michael

    Leave a comment:


  • 3rdAngel
    replied
    Originally posted by TomL View Post

    Tom replies

    OK if the Law be indivisible then a change to the law would change all. This would obviously preclude Sabbath keeping as a requirement unless it was reaffirmed in the New covenant

    I was looking for Adventist input however and also discussion on if portions of the law could be changed, some retained , some not retained on what basis could we determine what those changes are.
    Hello brother Tom,

    I am a little new here still. Just taking a look around the the different sections of the forum today and found this OP which sparked my interest. This is actually an interesting topic and OP. I have spent some time in the scriptures looking at this subject matter. Happy to discuss it if your still interested?

    God bless.

    Leave a comment:


  • mathias
    replied
    'The Lord our righteousness.'
    Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2
    Originally posted by mathias View Post
    It is yet far more evident if, According to the order of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.
    By so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. Hebrews 7:15-22

    [ A Priest Forever ]
    So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You." Hebrews 5:5
    And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
    being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek. Heb 5:9-10
    Originally posted by Greg Goodchild View Post
    Jesus died for us 2000 years ago and yet we are still here on this earth and sin continues to be active in the world. When will it end in your theology?
    16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the seed of Abraham.
    17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Heb 2
    Last edited by mathias; 05-12-19, 03:25 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Albur Tan
    replied
    Originally posted by ontheBeam View Post

    Hold on there "teacher". If I were you I would start my learning from Exodus chapter 19 and end it with chapter 24. Those chapters paint a different story than what you are teaching. God didn't stop telling Moses how the Israelites were to live at the end of verse 17. In chapter 19 verses 5-6 God tells Moses He is going to give Israel a covenant to live by and He didn't stop giving them that covenant in verse 17. Starting in verse 22 God goes on giving Moses instruction and doesn't stop until the end of chapter 23. Chapter 24 verse 3: When Moses went and told the people all the Lord’s words and laws, they responded with one voice,Everything the Lord has said we will do.” 4 Moses then wrote down everything the Lord had said.

    The word of the people and what Moses did with all that God had given him in chapters 20-23 is further emphasized in the following verses: 7Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the Lord has said; we will obey.”

    8 Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, “This is the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.

    SDAs are so fixated on the 10 commandments that they fail to realize that they were part of 613 laws of a covenant that ended when the new and better covenant was ratified with Jesus own blood at Calvary. Paul tells us in very plain words that the 10 commandments have ended as the guide of the Israelite people and now all mankind has the gift of the Holy Spirit as our guide. See 2Cor3:7-11. We also know the veil of the Temple was torn at Jesus death, doing away with all the commands of the covenant concerning the Levite priesthood. Not only was the veil rent, but the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in A.D. 70 scattering Jews all over the World. No nation, no covenant, no Sabbaths, no sacrificial system, no tithing system. It is a real shame Jews will not recognize these facts and the same goes for those who think they are under obligation to observe ritual laws from the defunct covenant.

    Jesus is now all mankind's High Priest and Hebrews tells us when there is a change in the priesthood there is also a change in the laws, thus we have a new covenant without all the ritual commands found in the old covenant and that includes the weekly Sabbath requirement.
    Yes, according to the Bible, the covenant was “everything that the lord has said” and that is what Moses wrote in the Book of the covenant/law that was dedicated as described in Hebrews 9:18-20 which is an almost word for word repeat of Exodus 24:1-9.

    Then you have the agreement/covenant in Exodus 34:27-28 being called the 10 commandments- which is an inaccurate translation from the Hebrew that doesn’t use their word for ‘commandment’. It is the same in Deut 4:13 and also Deut 10:4.

    Leave a comment:


  • ontheBeam
    replied
    Originally posted by Icyspark View Post



    Hi B Student,

    I don't currently have the time to address the rest of your post, but this particular comment drew my attention. This is easily discovered by doing a Bible search for the words "covenant" and "ten commandments" and voila!
    Deuteronomy 4:13
    He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.
    So actually, yes, this position is "supported by Scripture." The problem for you and others with this mindset is that now that you've seen this position "supported by Scripture," how will you incorporate it into your biblical worldview? The word "covenant" is there, as is the word "ten." The numeral "ten" limits this covenant to only that many "commandments." Moses says, "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you." Likewise Solomon writes, "Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar." Will the Lord "prove you a liar"?

    After God spoke the Ten Commandment covenant to the "whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire" we read that "He added nothing more. Then He wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to" Moses. This begs the question. If God "added nothing more," and we're told not to add or subtract from His words, how is it that you and others think you can do what God plainly admonished should not be done?





    Moses indicates that the additional decrees, regulations, and laws (mentioned in the post dated 01-27-19 on this thread) were to be written in "the book of the law," which was to be placed "beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God. There it will remain as a WITNESS AGAINST YOU." Just out of curiosity, if these decrees, regulations and laws were all part and parcel of the Ten Commandment covenant, how come God commanded that they be kept separate? God commanded that the book of the law be placed "BESIDE the ark of the covenant." Of the Ten Commandment covenant He said, "put IN the ark the tablets of the covenant law, which I will give you" (Ex. 25:16). Five verses later God tells Moses to, "Place the cover on top of the ark and put IN the ark the tablets of the covenant law that I will give you." Two different locations. Why couldn't the book of the law be placed with the Ten Commandment covenant "in the ark"? Wasn't there enough room in the box? Do you think the tablets were so large that the book wouldn't fit with them?

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
    Hold on there "teacher". If I were you I would start my learning from Exodus chapter 19 and end it with chapter 24. Those chapters paint a different story than what you are teaching. God didn't stop telling Moses how the Israelites were to live at the end of verse 17. In chapter 19 verses 5-6 God tells Moses He is going to give Israel a covenant to live by and He didn't stop giving them that covenant in verse 17. Starting in verse 22 God goes on giving Moses instruction and doesn't stop until the end of chapter 23. Chapter 24 verse 3: When Moses went and told the people all the Lord’s words and laws, they responded with one voice,Everything the Lord has said we will do.” 4 Moses then wrote down everything the Lord had said.

    The word of the people and what Moses did with all that God had given him in chapters 20-23 is further emphasized in the following verses: 7Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the Lord has said; we will obey.”

    8 Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, “This is the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.

    SDAs are so fixated on the 10 commandments that they fail to realize that they were part of 613 laws of a covenant that ended when the new and better covenant was ratified with Jesus own blood at Calvary. Paul tells us in very plain words that the 10 commandments have ended as the guide of the Israelite people and now all mankind has the gift of the Holy Spirit as our guide. See 2Cor3:7-11. We also know the veil of the Temple was torn at Jesus death, doing away with all the commands of the covenant concerning the Levite priesthood. Not only was the veil rent, but the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in A.D. 70 scattering Jews all over the World. No nation, no covenant, no Sabbaths, no sacrificial system, no tithing system. It is a real shame Jews will not recognize these facts and the same goes for those who think they are under obligation to observe ritual laws from the defunct covenant.

    Jesus is now all mankind's High Priest and Hebrews tells us when there is a change in the priesthood there is also a change in the laws, thus we have a new covenant without all the ritual commands found in the old covenant and that includes the weekly Sabbath requirement.
    Last edited by Mod9; 05-09-19, 09:15 PM. Reason: no violation

    Leave a comment:


  • Icyspark
    replied
    Originally posted by Icyspark
    14. The covenant of Ten Commandments comprises ONLY 10 commandments.
    Originally posted by B Student View Post
    [*]Is there really a Covenant of just the 10 commandments? I don’t think that is supported by scripture, and I suggest that you’re wrong on this if you are limiting the OC exclusively to them.

    Hi B Student,

    I don't currently have the time to address the rest of your post, but this particular comment drew my attention. This is easily discovered by doing a Bible search for the words "covenant" and "ten commandments" and voila!
    Deuteronomy 4:13
    He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.
    So actually, yes, this position is "supported by Scripture." The problem for you and others with this mindset is that now that you've seen this position "supported by Scripture," how will you incorporate it into your biblical worldview? The word "covenant" is there, as is the word "ten." The numeral "ten" limits this covenant to only that many "commandments." Moses says, "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you." Likewise Solomon writes, "Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar." Will the Lord "prove you a liar"?

    After God spoke the Ten Commandment covenant to the "whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire" we read that "He added nothing more. Then He wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to" Moses. This begs the question. If God "added nothing more," and we're told not to add or subtract from His words, how is it that you and others think you can do what God plainly admonished should not be done?


    The Mosaic Covenant included all that God commanded Moses (including but not limited to the 10 commandments). Why are you excluding everything else that God showed Moses on the mountain if they were required to obey everything else as part of the agreement? (Deut 10:12-13, 11:1, 12:1. Deut 27:1)[/LIST]

    Moses indicates that the additional decrees, regulations, and laws (mentioned in the post dated 01-27-19 on this thread) were to be written in "the book of the law," which was to be placed "beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God. There it will remain as a WITNESS AGAINST YOU." Just out of curiosity, if these decrees, regulations and laws were all part and parcel of the Ten Commandment covenant, how come God commanded that they be kept separate? God commanded that the book of the law be placed "BESIDE the ark of the covenant." Of the Ten Commandment covenant He said, "put IN the ark the tablets of the covenant law, which I will give you" (Ex. 25:16). Five verses later God tells Moses to, "Place the cover on top of the ark and put IN the ark the tablets of the covenant law that I will give you." Two different locations. Why couldn't the book of the law be placed with the Ten Commandment covenant "in the ark"? Wasn't there enough room in the box? Do you think the tablets were so large that the book wouldn't fit with them?

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

    Leave a comment:


  • mathias
    replied
    Originally posted by Greg Goodchild View Post
    mathias;n5923963][ A Priest Forever ]
    So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You." Hebrews 5:5

    It is yet far more evident if, According to the order of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment,
    but according to the power of an endless life.
    By so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. Hebrews 7:15-22
    And when will the new covenant bring about His second coming in your theology? Jesus died for us 2000 years ago and yet we are still here on this earth and sin continues to be active in the world. When will it end in your theology?
    John 3:36
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Greg Goodchild
    replied
    [QUOTE=mathias;n5923963][ A Priest Forever ]
    So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You." Hebrews 5:5

    It is yet far more evident if, According to the order of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment,
    but according to the power of an endless life.
    By so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. Hebrews 7:15-22[/QUO

    And when will the new covenant bring about His second coming in your theology? Jesus died for us 2000 years ago and yet we are still here on this earth and sin continues to be active in the world. When will it end in your theology?

    Leave a comment:


  • mathias
    replied
    [ A Priest Forever ]
    So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You." Hebrews 5:5
    Originally posted by TomL View Post
    Do Adventists recognize divisions in the Law

    Hebrews 7:12 (KJV)
    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    Moral - No Expiration because it is based on God's character. "You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy," (Lev. 19:2)
    Idolatry (Lev. 26:1-13)

    Do we assume all stipulations carry over from the old covenant to the New ... ?

    How does this effect Observation of the ...Sabbath... ?

    ____________________________________
    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent
    It is yet far more evident if, According to the order of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment,
    but according to the power of an endless life.
    By so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. Hebrews 7:15-22
    Last edited by mathias; 04-20-19, 02:36 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Greg Goodchild
    replied
    Originally posted by TomL View Post
    At

    Hebrews 7:12 (KJV)
    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    We read of a change to the law

    Is the law a unit which must be observed or rejected in whole or does the law have different sections some of which may be retained and others which may be superseded


    In the CARM section
    1. Questions About Doctrine
    1. Civil - Deals with disputes between individuals. Expired with the demise of the Jewish civil government
      1. Be just with the poor, (Lev. 19:15)
      2. Cattle, of neighbor (Deut. 22:1-4)
      3. Children, rebellious (Deut. 21:18-21)
      4. Debt (Lev. 23:34-43; Deut. 31:10)
      5. Divorce (Deut. 22:19)
      6. Dress, attire (Deut. 22:5)
      7. Do not hate in your heart (Lev. 19:17)
      8. Inheritance (Num. 18:26; 26:53-56; 36:8-12)
      9. Justice practices (Lev. 24:17-23)
      10. Kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
      11. Landmarks (Deuteronomy 19:14)
      12. Property redemption (Lev. 25)
      13. Murder and killing (Deut. 21:1-4)
      14. Retain just scales in commerce (Lev. 19:35f)
      15. Robbery, extortion, false witness, and restitution (Lev. 6:1-7)
      16. Sabbath breaking punishment (Num. 15:32-36)
      17. Theft (Deut. 5:19; Lev. 19:11)
      18. Warfare (Deut. 20:1-20)
    2. Ceremonial - Expired with the fulfillment of priestly work of Christ (Matt. 3:15)
      1. Cleaning house of leper (Lev. 14:33-57; Num. 5:2)
      2. Festivals (Lev. 23:1-25; Nu. 29:39)
      3. Laws on animals for food (Lev. 11:1-47)
      4. Law of Atonement (Lev. 16:1-28;17:1-16)
      5. Offerings (Num. 29:39)
      6. Priest, consecration of (Ex. 29:1-46)
      7. Priestly duties (Lev. 7:1-37)
      8. Regulations for Priests (Lev. 21,22)
      9. Various sacrificial offerings for sin (Lev. 1,2,3,4,5,6)
    3. Moral - No Expiration because it is based on God's character. "You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy," (Lev. 19:2)
      1. Idolatry (Lev. 26:1-13)
      2. Love God (Deut. 6:4)
      3. Love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18)
      4. Oppress your neighbor (Lev. 19:13)
      5. Stealing or lying (Lev. 19:11)
      6. Sacrifice children to Molech forbidden (Lev. 20:1-5)
      7. Sexual sins: adultery, incest, bestiality, homosexuality, etc. (Lev. 18:20; 20:9-21; Num. 5:12-15)
    If the law is divisible how do we decide what remains viable and what has been superseded.

    Do we assume all stipulations carry over from the old covenant to the New and only if explicitly noted as having been terminated are we then free from observance or do we only observe that which is explicitly reaffirmed in the new covenant ?

    How does this effect Observation of the Seventh day Sabbath or does it really ?
    We figure these things out by the Word of God. For example the Bible says that when Jesus died on the Cross we no longer need to sacrifice animals to tell us about the death of the Lamb of God, that was completed at Calvary. When it comes to Sabbath, and all of the other nine commandments, they are still in effect and are upheld by the intercessory ministry of Jesus in heaven.

    Leave a comment:


  • B Student
    replied
    Originally posted by Icyspark View Post


    Hi 1stthings1st,

    First things first. With a flippant wave of your hand you just dismissed four explicit and distinctive words used in Scripture to identify four "divisions in the law." You supplied ZERO evidence for your assertion that these are merely "all synonyms."





    I've explained this to you and others on this forum numerous times. Let me break it down for you . . . yet again:
    1. There was only one set of commandments.
    2. This set of commandments has a numeral attached to it.
    3. This numeral constrains this set of commandments to being only said numeral. Not 9. Not 633. Just 10.
    4. Ask any child how many commandments are in the TEN Commandments and they will have no problem telling you, "Ten!"
    5. This set of "Ten Commandments" was written on STONE.
    6. All the other "decrees1 and regulations2, the laws3" were written on paper.
    7. The Ten Commandments were written by God's own finger.
    8. All the other decrees1 and regulations2, the laws3" were written by the hand of Moses.
    9. Then Ten Commandments were written by God's own finger a SECOND TIME.
    10. The Ten Commandments were spoken audibly for all Israel to hear.
    11. All the other decrees1 and regulations2, the laws3" were spoken by Moses.
    12. After God proclaimed the Ten Commandments "in a loud voice to the whole assembly," Moses says that, "He added NOTHING more." (Deut. 5:22)
    13. The set of Ten Commandments; written on stone; by God's own finger; and spoken audibly for all the people to hear; is identified as "His COVENANT, the Ten Commandments."
    14. The covenant of Ten Commandments comprises ONLY 10 commandments.
    God didn't just randomly spring these commandments upon His creatures at Mount Sinai and only then designate these transgressions as sin. The God of the Bible does not change like shifting shadows. Several of the Ten Commandments are explicitly identified before the commandments were codified at Sinai. Cain knew it was a sin to murder his brother. Joseph knew it was a "sin against God" to have sex with a married woman. The Sabbath is described in Genesis almost in verbatim language as it is in the Exodus account and Jesus says, "the Sabbath was MADE FOR HUMANS." Note that He does not say that it was made for Jews.

    The old covenant/agreement was made between the Jews and God. What they agreed to did was not the problem. "God found fault with the people," because "they did not remain faithful to" their agreement (i.e. they didn't keep their end of the bargain).

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
    Moses seems to have combined all the decrees, regulations, laws and commands into the Old Covenant, both what God spoke directly to the people and all that Moses conveyed to the people on God’s behalf. All of these things were a binding part of the covenant:

    Ex 34: Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.

    Num 15: 22 And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses, 23 Even all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations;

    Lev 18:4 ‘You are to perform My judgments and keep My statutes, to live in accord with them; I am the LORD your God.

    Lev 27:34 These are the commandments which the LORD commanded Moses for the sons of Israel at Mount Sinai.

    Deut 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

    Deut 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

    The covenant is described in Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers. The ordinances of Exodus 21 to 23 which followed the commands of Exodus 20, were included in the covenant (Ex 24: 3-8). It is interesting to note that the 10 commandments were associated with the Law (Ex 24:12). The Law was further developed as part of the Covenant in Exodus 25 to 31. Then Moses went up again and received further commands which were part of the covenant (Ex 34:10-11, 32, 35:1) and are described in Ex 35:2-20. These commands were further developed in Ex 40:1-16 and Lev 1 to 7. Laws of cleanliness were also added to the covenant (Lev 11 to 15) and many other statues, judgements, ordinances and laws (chapters 16 to 25 and 27). All of these were part of the covenant of Sinai:

    Lev 26: 44 ‘Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I so abhor them as to destroy them, breaking My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God. 45 ‘But I will remember for them the covenant with their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am the LORD.’” 46 These are the statutes and ordinances and laws which the LORD established between Himself and the sons of Israel through Moses at Mount Sinai.

    In summary and conclusion: all of the laws, statues, commands, judgements and ordinances were part of the Old Covenant at Sinai (along with further judgements added in Num 5&6, 8-10 at which point they left Sinai as per Num 10:11-12).

    Further commands were appended to the covenant (Num 19, 28-30, 36) which was renewed across the Jordan in Deuteronomy (Deut 29:1).

    That covenant at Jordan would include for example everything listed in Deuteronomy chapter 12 to chapter 26, which are described as statues, judgements and commands (Deut 12: 1, 27:1) along with the blessings and curses of Deuteronomy chapters 27 and 28 and everything else described earlier.

    The question then is: are Christians under the charges, statues, judgments, commandments, laws of the Old Covenant?

    Many of the Those Laws reflect eternal spiritual principles that existed before and after the Law, so Christians are still bound to them in that sense.

    However, in as much as being bound the actual Old Covenant with its promises and curses, Christians are not. Furthermore the statues and regulations of that Old Covenant which are not repeated in the New Testament, are not binding upon Christians, because they are not bound to that Covenant.
    That would mean that work prohibitions on the seventh day of the week are not binding upon Christians.

    Having reviewed your list of proofs, I see no real evidence that keeping of the seventh day work restrictions of the OC are still binding on Christians. Here are my initial thoughts:
    1. How can that statement be true? There are many commands in the OT besides the 10 (e.g. Deut 5:31, Deut chapter 6 etc.)
    2. How is that a proof?
    3. How is that a proof?
    4. How is that a proof?
    5. Why would you try to use ‘written on stone’ as a proof that Christians are bound to them? 2Cor 3:3 specifically states the New Covenant has nothing to do with the covenant written on stone. Doesn’t that destroy your argument?
    6. Written on paper, so?…the ones written on paper are lumped with the ones written on stone in 2Cor 3:3 as pertaining to the Old.
    7. What does “written by the finger of God” prove? The rest of the Law was spoken by God’s mouth. Is the word of God in any form perishable? (Isa 40:8) So what does the stone prove?
    8. As spoken to him by God (Num 15:22). Are you saying what God spoke to Moses on the mountain and throughout the rest of the OT was somehow more perishable or less valuable?
    9. See point 7 above
    10. And the rest were spoken audibly for Moses to hear. Are they somehow less valuable? Wasn’t there a reason the Lord didn’t speak everything else? Didn’t the people request Moses to be the intermediary? (Deut 5:25-28)
    11. As Spoken to him by God, again, are they somehow less valuable? Was not Israel bound equally to these as to the other 10 as part of the Old Covenant at Sinai and Jordan (Deut 5:31-33)?
    12. He added nothing more directly to their hearing. Does that mean what God has spoken to Moses earlier on the mountain was not included in the covenant? Why not? And all that God through Moses would command them to obey (Deut 5:31-33), was that not part of the OC?
    13. The 10 written on stone are a part of the covenant. Why not think of them as an executive summary? It’s not all of the covenant; Israel was bound to all that God commanded them through Moses (Deut 5:31-33)
    14. Is there really a Covenant of just the 10 commandments? I don’t think that is supported by scripture, and I suggest that you’re wrong on this if you are limiting the OC exclusively to them. The Mosaic Covenant included all that God commanded Moses (including but not limited to the 10 commandments). Why are you excluding everything else that God showed Moses on the mountain if they were required to obey everything else as part of the agreement? (Deut 10:12-13, 11:1, 12:1. Deut 27:1)

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  • Icyspark
    replied
    Originally posted by 1stthings1st View Post

    Decrees, regulations, laws, and commands, are all synonyms -- commands from God to be obeyed by people.

    Hi 1stthings1st,

    First things first. With a flippant wave of your hand you just dismissed four explicit and distinctive words used in Scripture to identify four "divisions in the law." You supplied ZERO evidence for your assertion that these are merely "all synonyms."


    Even if you were to divide the law into "decrees, regulations, laws, and commands" do you believe that the scripture elsewhere indicates which divisions would continue under the New Covenant and which ones wouldn't (keeping in mind that the Old Covenant was only given to Israel)? If you do, where would I find that scripture?

    I've explained this to you and others on this forum numerous times. Let me break it down for you . . . yet again:
    1. There was only one set of commandments.
    2. This set of commandments has a numeral attached to it.
    3. This numeral constrains this set of commandments to being only said numeral. Not 9. Not 633. Just 10.
    4. Ask any child how many commandments are in the TEN Commandments and they will have no problem telling you, "Ten!"
    5. This set of "Ten Commandments" was written on STONE.
    6. All the other "decrees1 and regulations2, the laws3" were written on paper.
    7. The Ten Commandments were written by God's own finger.
    8. All the other decrees1 and regulations2, the laws3" were written by the hand of Moses.
    9. Then Ten Commandments were written by God's own finger a SECOND TIME.
    10. The Ten Commandments were spoken audibly for all Israel to hear.
    11. All the other decrees1 and regulations2, the laws3" were spoken by Moses.
    12. After God proclaimed the Ten Commandments "in a loud voice to the whole assembly," Moses says that, "He added NOTHING more." (Deut. 5:22)
    13. The set of Ten Commandments; written on stone; by God's own finger; and spoken audibly for all the people to hear; is identified as "His COVENANT, the Ten Commandments."
    14. The covenant of Ten Commandments comprises ONLY 10 commandments.
    God didn't just randomly spring these commandments upon His creatures at Mount Sinai and only then designate these transgressions as sin. The God of the Bible does not change like shifting shadows. Several of the Ten Commandments are explicitly identified before the commandments were codified at Sinai. Cain knew it was a sin to murder his brother. Joseph knew it was a "sin against God" to have sex with a married woman. The Sabbath is described in Genesis almost in verbatim language as it is in the Exodus account and Jesus says, "the Sabbath was MADE FOR HUMANS." Note that He does not say that it was made for Jews.

    The old covenant/agreement was made between the Jews and God. What they agreed to did was not the problem. "God found fault with the people," because "they did not remain faithful to" their agreement (i.e. they didn't keep their end of the bargain).

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

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  • 1stthings1st
    replied
    Originally posted by Icyspark View Post


    Hi 1stthings1st,

    How about this:
    2 Kings 17:34-41
    To this day they persist in their former practices. They neither worship the Lord nor adhere to the decrees1 and regulations2, the laws3 and commands4 that the Lord gave the descendants of Jacob, whom he named Israel. When the Lord made a covenant with the Israelites, he commanded them: “Do not worship any other gods or bow down to them, serve them or sacrifice to them. But the Lord, who brought you up out of Egypt with mighty power and outstretched arm, is the one you must worship. To him you shall bow down and to him offer sacrifices. You must always be careful to keep the decrees1 and regulations2, the laws3 and commands4 he wrote for you. Do not worship other gods. Do not forget the covenant I have made with you, and do not worship other gods. Rather, worship the Lord your God; it is he who will deliver you from the hand of all your enemies.”

    They would not listen, however, but persisted in their former practices. Even while these people were worshiping the Lord, they were serving their idols. To this day their children and grandchildren continue to do as their ancestors did.
    • So, who made these divisions in the "law"?
    • How many commands are there in the Ten Commandment Covenant?
    • If it's all just one law, why is there a numeral attached to the commandments written on stone?
    • After God spoke the Ten Commandment Covenant for all Israel to hear, why does Moses say that, "He added NO MORE"?
    I should also note that it is not just Adventists who note divisions in the law. Even CARM's very own Matt Slick makes note of civil, ceremonial and moral divisions.

    I pray this helps.

    But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
    Decrees, regulations, laws, and commands, are all synonyms -- commands from God to be obeyed by people.

    Even if you were to divide the law into "decrees, regulations, laws, and commands" do you believe that the scripture elsewhere indicates which divisions would continue under the New Covenant and which ones wouldn't (keeping in mind that the Old Covenant was only given to Israel)? If you do, where would I find that scripture?

    Leave a comment:


  • commen tater
    replied
    That if you think your salvation is dependent upon you following the law, you are in a mess o' hurt. It isn't about when you worship, it is about who.

    “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. “But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! “For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. “For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.“I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” Galatians 2:15-21 NASB

    You have not addressed the fact that Jesus pointed out that the ceremonial law about a jewish male child was to be circumcised on the eighth day even if that day was a Sabbath, and he meant a law that was specific about a circumcision of the flesh, took precedence over the fourth commandment. Even the people that God gave that commandment to, the Jews, recognize that it is a ritual law and that it was not meant for Gentiles, except those converting to Judaism.

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