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Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian

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  • Gal 3:
    23
    But before faith came, we were kept under the law, being shut apart from the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    24 Therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (Law).

    In verse 23 Paul is telling the Jews "before faith came" When did faith come? All mankind is saved by faith, but with Jesus coming He took away all the ritual laws that had no bearing on faith. Laws dealing with morality are everlasting. With Jesus at the helm even if one breaks a law dealing with morality it does not have to condemn us to eternal death.

    Verse 23 also tells us we (Jews) WERE kept under the Law. Verse 24 "the law WAS". Notice were and was are past tense. Something happened that made the Law in the past.

    Verse 24 tells us that after faith came Jews were no longer under the Law. Those verses blast your theory out of the water. Verse 19 tells us the Law WAS until Jesus. Jesus said in Matt 5:17-18 “Think not that I am come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.

    When I looked up the word "fulfil" the dictionary's explanation of the word is: to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
    to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
    to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.):a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
    to bring to an end; finish or complete,


    Jesus surely carried out the plan of salvation. He followed the prophecy, obeyed and performed. Oh my, "until" could it also mean that Jesus brought to an end? Well, something brought it to and. Yes, Jesus brought the law to an end. I wonder why your revered NASB translation uses the word fulfill in Matt5:17. Did Jesus accomplish everything He came to do? According to your NASB rendition of 2Cor3:7-11 He must not have. Jesus is God and God didn't fail the promise of Jeremiah. He Himself satisfied the requirements of the old covenant, brought it to an end, gave all mankind a new and better covenant and ratified it with His own blood. The old covenant passed at Calvary, It lost its usefulness at Calvary. Jews were freed from its condemnation because it ended at Calvary. Then to clinch the fact that the old Law has passed we read in the NASB Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

    There is but one law and that law is dealing with Jew and gentile alike. Take it or leave it, all mankind is subject to it. No one could possibly be judged by a Law that doesn't exist. Sorry B, I don't buy into your theory. I don't know why the writer used the term fading away unless he meant some, at that time and even now, are trying to do what the law was never designed to do. The same could apply to all the verses you claim proves that the old covenant is still in force for Jews who have not accepted Jesus as Savior.
    Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ontheBeam View Post
      Gal 3:
      23
      But before faith came, we were kept under the law, being shut apart from the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

      24 Therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

      25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (Law).

      In verse 23 Paul is telling the Jews "before faith came" When did faith come? All mankind is saved by faith, but with Jesus coming He took away all the ritual laws that had no bearing on faith. Laws dealing with morality are everlasting. With Jesus at the helm even if one breaks a law dealing with morality it does not have to condemn us to eternal death.

      Verse 23 also tells us we (Jews) WERE kept under the Law. Verse 24 "the law WAS". Notice were and was are past tense. Something happened that made the Law in the past.

      Verse 24 tells us that after faith came Jews were no longer under the Law. Those verses blast your theory out of the water. Verse 19 tells us the Law WAS until Jesus. Jesus said in Matt 5:17-18 “Think not that I am come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.

      When I looked up the word "fulfil" the dictionary's explanation of the word is: to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
      to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
      to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.):a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
      to bring to an end; finish or complete,


      Jesus surely carried out the plan of salvation. He followed the prophecy, obeyed and performed. Oh my, "until" could it also mean that Jesus brought to an end? Well, something brought it to and. Yes, Jesus brought the law to an end. I wonder why your revered NASB translation uses the word fulfill in Matt5:17. Did Jesus accomplish everything He came to do? According to your NASB rendition of 2Cor3:7-11 He must not have. Jesus is God and God didn't fail the promise of Jeremiah. He Himself satisfied the requirements of the old covenant, brought it to an end, gave all mankind a new and better covenant and ratified it with His own blood. The old covenant passed at Calvary, It lost its usefulness at Calvary. Jews were freed from its condemnation because it ended at Calvary. Then to clinch the fact that the old Law has passed we read in the NASB Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

      There is but one law and that law is dealing with Jew and gentile alike. Take it or leave it, all mankind is subject to it. No one could possibly be judged by a Law that doesn't exist. Sorry B, I don't buy into your theory. I don't know why the writer used the term fading away unless he meant some, at that time and even now, are trying to do what the law was never designed to do. The same could apply to all the verses you claim proves that the old covenant is still in force for Jews who have not accepted Jesus as Savior.
      OTB,

      I sense that you are frustrated with this discussion and have little interest in what I say and the questions I am raising.

      We can simply agree to end this discussion at any time. I don’t mind since it’s better to end a discussion than continue one that is going nowhere.

      I don’t know why you start using phrases like “your NASB”. The NASB is a very literal translation and well suited to discussing verb tenses:

      "While preserving the literal accuracy of the 1901 ASV, the NASB has sought to render grammar and terminology in contemporary English. Special attention has been given to the rendering of verb tenses to give the English reader a rendering as close as possible to the sense of the original Greek and Hebrew texts. In 1995, the text of the NASB was updated for greater understanding and smoother reading. The New American Standard Bible present on the Bible Gateway matches the 1995 printing.
      The NASB update continues the NASB's tradition of literal translation of the original Greek and Hebrew without compromise. Changes in the text have been kept within the strict parameters set forth by the Lockman Foundation's Fourfold Aim.
      The original NASB has earned the reputation of being the most accurate English Bible translation. The NASB update carries on the NASB tradition of being a true Bible translation, revealing what the original manuscripts actually say--not merely what the translator believes they mean.”"


      https://www.biblegateway.com/version...le-NASB/#vinfo

      Of course the NASB is nowhere near infallible in its translation, so we need to use our heads and all available resources to come to the best understanding of Bible truth that we can. There are many places where I think the NASB has done a poorer translation than other versions, but on the whole I think it’s good.

      Is it “my NASB” simply because I pointed out you were trying to prove verb tenses from a loose translation? Well, simply learn and move on. Everybody here is learning; it’s no big deal.

      Those loose translations serve a purpose; they can be good for the beginner, or even for the advanced student who wants to gain new ideas and insights. However, it’s important to recognize their limitations. Furthermore, it’s important to recognize the limitation of all translations.

      There is a tendency for discussion on these boards to go nowhere. I try to answer every point and question raised along with proof verses in order to attempt to settle issues before jumping on to other points (though I do sometimes break that ideal myself). Many do not.

      At this point, I think we’re simply jumping around too much to establish anything. With the remainder of this post I will address Gal 3:23-25 and Eph 2:13-16.

      Galatians 3

      Who is Paul addressing (Gal 3:1-5)?

      Is he not addressing baptized believers in Christ?

      Gal 3: 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might (subjunctive) come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive (subjunctive) the promised Spirit through faith.

      In verse 14, what is the condition for receiving the promised Spirit?

      I assume the answer would be faith.

      If gentiles meet the CONDITION that they have faith, in what state are they described?

      Are those who have met the condition of faith not described as being in” Christ Jesus?

      Who is the “we” in vs 14?

      Is it all people? Or those of faith who are being addressed? I submit it is the latter, not the former.

      Moving on,

      Gal 3: 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given [subjunctive] to those who believe.
      23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

      In verse 22, who is the promise given to? Is it everyone? Or is it to those who meet the condition of faith described throughout this chapter? I submit it is the latter.

      Who then is the “we” in verse 23?

      Is the “we” everyone on the planet? Or is the “we” the believers of faith that are being referred to throughout the entire chapter?

      I think the logical conclusion is that we are talking about the believers in Christ throughout this entire chapter.

      Therefore, there is nothing different here than what I have been saying now for many posts: through the baptism of faith (see verses 26 to 29 of the chapter) one is dead to the flesh (and by extension the Law) and alive as one new body in Christ, under a New Covenant.

      There is no indication this chapter refers universally to all Jews (e.g. those who do not believe and are under the Law). The evidence tells us the opposite: that the chapter applies exclusively to those of faith, who were baptized into Christ.

      Now Ephesians 2:13-16

      Let’s establish the context.

      Who is Paul addressing?

      Eph 1: 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

      1:19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

      Is there a condition placed on the working of his power? Is it not belief?

      Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
      5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

      Question from verse 1&2, Who is he addressing? (refer back to Eph 1:1,15).

      Do these vereses indicate everyone on the planet is included? I would say no, given he specifically mentions another outside group. In fact, the context is believers.

      Questions from verses 5&6 above:

      Who is the we? Is it not the believers being addressed? Is it not the same type of baptized believer mentioned in Col 2:11-13?

      How were they made alive and raised up with Christ? Refer to Romans 6:1-11, Col 2:11-13. Is it not by the baptism of faith into Christ?
      Moving on,

      Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

      Is there a condition on salvation? Is it not faith? Who is the “you” here? Is it not those of the ecclesia who are baptized believers?

      Moving on,

      Eph 2: 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the [barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

      In these verses I submit we are addressing baptized believers who are “in” Christ, since that is well established in the context of this letter.

      And how did they get to be in Christ Jesus? By becoming baptized believers of course, since that is well established in the context of these chapters.

      How did they get to become one body in Christ Jesus? Is it not by becoming baptized believers in Christ Jesus? (Gal 3:26-29, 1Cor 12:13)

      Verses 13-17 are describing the formation of ONE BODY via believers joining it through baptism of faith. It is by baptism (Gal 3:26-29, 1Cor 12:13) that believers join the ONE BODY, and that is a continual process of addition.

      As a result, the Barrier Wall between Jew and Gentile was not universally annulled within the flesh of all people at Christ’s death; it was done away with only in the flesh of Christ. The barrier of separation (which the Law maintained) is done away in the flesh of each person only when he/she passes into the ONE body of Christ, through the baptism of faith, not before.

      We can look at this from another angle:

      If everyone on the planet became one body at the instant Christ died, then why does the Bible say that we become part of the one body when we are baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ (Gal 3:27-28, 1Cor 12:13, Rom 6:3-5, Rom 7:4, Col 2:11-14)? Aren’t you arguing that already happened for everyone on the planet? Whereas the Bible states his body is the Church (Col 1:24) i.e. not everyone on the planet.

      You can compare Col 2:11-14, and see the same concepts being expressed in Eph 2 (circumcision of heart, being formerly dead in trespasses, passing through the cross of Christ). Col 2:12 makes it clear this applies to those who are baptized into Christ, not the whole planet.

      In summary, the Law is made old and done away with, for an individual Jew under the Law, through baptism into Christ and not before.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by B Student View Post

        OTB,

        I sense that you are frustrated with this discussion and have little interest in what I say and the questions I am raising.
        I sense that there is something wrong with your senses. I am very interested in your beliefs and am challenged which keeps me involved with the greatest book ever compiled.

        We can simply agree to end this discussion at any time. I don’t mind since it’s better to end a discussion than continue one that is going nowhere.
        It seems like all the scripture I have presented has been for naught. You have an agenda and will not relent to any thoughts I have presented. My last post has some very explicit texts that without a doubt has some very good points for what I believe.

        I don’t know why you start using phrases like “your NASB”. The NASB is a very literal translation and well suited to discussing verb tenses:

        "While preserving the literal accuracy of the 1901 ASV, the NASB has sought to render grammar and terminology in contemporary English. Special attention has been given to the rendering of verb tenses to give the English reader a rendering as close as possible to the sense of the original Greek and Hebrew texts. In 1995, the text of the NASB was updated for greater understanding and smoother reading. The New American Standard Bible present on the Bible Gateway matches the 1995 printing.
        The NASB update continues the NASB's tradition of literal translation of the original Greek and Hebrew without compromise. Changes in the text have been kept within the strict parameters set forth by the Lockman Foundation's Fourfold Aim.
        The original NASB has earned the reputation of being the most accurate English Bible translation. The NASB update carries on the NASB tradition of being a true Bible translation, revealing what the original manuscripts actually say--not merely what the translator believes they mean.”"


        https://www.biblegateway.com/version...le-NASB/#vinfo

        Of course the NASB is nowhere near infallible in its translation, so we need to use our heads and all available resources to come to the best understanding of Bible truth that we can. There are many places where I think the NASB has done a poorer translation than other versions, but on the whole I think it’s good.

        Is it “my NASB” simply because I pointed out you were trying to prove verb tenses from a loose translation? Well, simply learn and move on. Everybody here is learning; it’s no big deal.

        Those loose translations serve a purpose; they can be good for the beginner, or even for the advanced student who wants to gain new ideas and insights. However, it’s important to recognize their limitations. Furthermore, it’s important to recognize the limitation of all translations.

        There is a tendency for discussion on these boards to go nowhere. I try to answer every point and question raised along with proof verses in order to attempt to settle issues before jumping on to other points (though I do sometimes break that ideal myself). Many do not.
        Thanks fo that information.
        At this point, I think we’re simply jumping around too much to establish anything. With the remainder of this post I will address Gal 3:23-25 and Eph 2:13-16.

        Galatians 3

        Who is Paul addressing (Gal 3:1-5)?

        Is he not addressing baptized believers in Christ?
        It does not say he is, but I assume they were because that is part of the message, the good news. The thief was not baptized nor was Abraham. They were saved because of their belief.

        Gal 3: 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might (subjunctive) come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive (subjunctive) the promised Spirit through faith.

        In verse 14, what is the condition for receiving the promised Spirit?

        I assume the answer would be faith.
        Was not the Holy Spirit in Paul even during his persecution of the Christians. What caused Paul to submit to Jesus? Did Jesus put a qualifier on who He would send the Comforter? I believe the Holy Spirit is in every one of God's children. It takes the Pauls of the World to bring the unsaved to submit to Him. Was the Holy Spirit only in the disciples at Pentecost?

        If gentiles meet the CONDITION that they have faith, in what state are they described?
        Again, the unsaved without the prodding of the Spirit would reject Jesus. He is there waiting for us to hear or read of the Good News. If anyone receives the Word and have faith are saved.

        Are those who have met the condition of faith not described as being in” Christ Jesus?
        Yes

        I see a pattern here. I keep answering your questions and you don't reciprocate. Are my questions beneath qualifying an answer? Do you really want to debate or are you here to preach your theory? I am really getting tired of the one sidedness. It seems that you refuse to entertain my points.

        Who is the “we” in vs 14?

        Is it all people? Or those of faith who are being addressed? I submit it is the latter, not the former.

        Moving on,

        Gal 3: 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given [subjunctive] to those who believe.
        23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

        In verse 22, who is the promise given to? Is it everyone? Or is it to those who meet the condition of faith described throughout this chapter? I submit it is the latter.

        Who then is the “we” in verse 23?

        Is the “we” everyone on the planet? Or is the “we” the believers of faith that are being referred to throughout the entire chapter?

        I think the logical conclusion is that we are talking about the believers in Christ throughout this entire chapter.

        Therefore, there is nothing different here than what I have been saying now for many posts: through the baptism of faith (see verses 26 to 29 of the chapter) one is dead to the flesh (and by extension the Law) and alive as one new body in Christ, under a New Covenant.

        There is no indication this chapter refers universally to all Jews (e.g. those who do not believe and are under the Law). The evidence tells us the opposite: that the chapter applies exclusively to those of faith, who were baptized into Christ.
        According to you Gal3:19 needs a qualifier, but where is that qualifier? Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people. Paul here has changed from referring to the Gentiles to just the Jews. The Law, given only to Israel, WAS designed to last ONLY to the coming of Jesus. With the coming of Jesus the law ended for all of Judaism. The law was dead. It had no power. It couldn't condemn any Jew. It no longer exists. It cannot condemn any Jew that has not accepted Jesus. God changed the Plan for all mankind. We all are subject to the rules of the eternal covenant.



        How did they get to become one body in Christ Jesus? Is it not by becoming baptized believers in Christ Jesus? (Gal 3:26-29, 1Cor 12:13)
        I like to see the verses you are referring. 26 For you are all children[m] of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes.[n] 28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile,[o] slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children[p] of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.

        Are we not children Of God even though we have not accepted Jesus? Even Satan is God's creation. I thought that all mankind are God's children. We deny God when we turn from Jesus, but we are all born in His likeness. He doesn't deny us, we deny Him. Getting back to your point that there are two laws in effect in the World I still do not know how something that has been done away can still govern. So far you have not proved to the contrary. You are just trying to cover up the facts and I so far do not agree with your reasoning. God's eternal covenant governs every living soul.

        Verses 13-17 are describing the formation of ONE BODY via believers joining it through baptism of faith. It is by baptism (Gal 3:26-29, 1Cor 12:13) that believers join the ONE BODY, and that is a continual process of addition.
        That is what God wants and that is why He gave all mankind a better covenant. Whether or not we accept it we are still under it.

        As a result, the Barrier Wall between Jew and Gentile was not universally annulled within the flesh of all people at Christ’s death; it was done away with only in the flesh of Christ. The barrier of separation (which the Law maintained) is done away in the flesh of each person only when he/she passes into the ONE body of Christ, through the baptism of faith, not before.
        It was annulled alright. Most Jews have to accepted that fact. They are clinging to something that God has taken away and given all mankind a better covenant.

        We can look at this from another angle:

        If everyone on the planet became one body at the instant Christ died, then why does the Bible say that we become part of the one body when we are baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ (Gal 3:27-28, 1Cor 12:13, Rom 6:3-5, Rom 7:4, Col 2:11-14)?
        There you go again completely missing the point. The law changed. God, the leader of all mankind gave His Son when it was without a doubt that Israel couldn't come close to keeping the covenant they were under. He came with the new covenant that was given to them and whether they like it or not they are judged by the new covenant. There is no other covenant in which to be judged. As Paul so eloquently wrote in 2Cor3:7-11, the law is done away, the law was, the law was transient. The Holy Spirit has become the guide of all mankind. The gift of the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost is forever and is our guide.

        Aren’t you arguing that already happened for everyone on the planet? Whereas the Bible states his body is the Church (Col 1:24) i.e. not everyone on the planet.
        We are all one under the rules of the new covenant

        You can compare Col 2:11-14, and see the same concepts being expressed in Eph 2 (circumcision of heart, being formerly dead in trespasses, passing through the cross of Christ). Col 2:12 makes it clear this applies to those who are baptized into Christ, not the whole planet.

        In summary, the Law is made old and done away with, for an individual Jew under the Law, through baptism into Christ and not before.
        In summary, Paul never alluded to your theory. Without presenting some obscure verses that I scratch my head to try to understand where they fit in to your belief, just find some verse that tells Jews that they are still under the 613 laws of the defunct old covenant.
        Last edited by Mod8; 02-06-19, 09:46 AM.
        Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by B Student View Post

          OTB,

          I sense that you are frustrated with this discussion and have little interest in what I say and the questions I am raising.
          I sense that there is something wrong with your senses. I am very interested in your beliefs and am challenged which keeps me involved with the greatest book ever compiled.

          We can simply agree to end this discussion at any time. I don’t mind since it’s better to end a discussion than continue one that is going nowhere.
          It seems like all the scripture I have presented has been for naught. You have an agenda and will not relent to any thoughts I have presented. My last post has some very explicit texts that without a doubt has some very good points for what I believe.

          I don’t know why you start using phrases like “your NASB”. The NASB is a very literal translation and well suited to discussing verb tenses:

          "While preserving the literal accuracy of the 1901 ASV, the NASB has sought to render grammar and terminology in contemporary English. Special attention has been given to the rendering of verb tenses to give the English reader a rendering as close as possible to the sense of the original Greek and Hebrew texts. In 1995, the text of the NASB was updated for greater understanding and smoother reading. The New American Standard Bible present on the Bible Gateway matches the 1995 printing.
          The NASB update continues the NASB's tradition of literal translation of the original Greek and Hebrew without compromise. Changes in the text have been kept within the strict parameters set forth by the Lockman Foundation's Fourfold Aim.
          The original NASB has earned the reputation of being the most accurate English Bible translation. The NASB update carries on the NASB tradition of being a true Bible translation, revealing what the original manuscripts actually say--not merely what the translator believes they mean.”"


          https://www.biblegateway.com/version...le-NASB/#vinfo

          Of course the NASB is nowhere near infallible in its translation, so we need to use our heads and all available resources to come to the best understanding of Bible truth that we can. There are many places where I think the NASB has done a poorer translation than other versions, but on the whole I think it’s good.

          Is it “my NASB” simply because I pointed out you were trying to prove verb tenses from a loose translation? Well, simply learn and move on. Everybody here is learning; it’s no big deal.

          Those loose translations serve a purpose; they can be good for the beginner, or even for the advanced student who wants to gain new ideas and insights. However, it’s important to recognize their limitations. Furthermore, it’s important to recognize the limitation of all translations.

          There is a tendency for discussion on these boards to go nowhere. I try to answer every point and question raised along with proof verses in order to attempt to settle issues before jumping on to other points (though I do sometimes break that ideal myself). Many do not.
          Thanks fo that information.
          At this point, I think we’re simply jumping around too much to establish anything. With the remainder of this post I will address Gal 3:23-25 and Eph 2:13-16.

          Galatians 3

          Who is Paul addressing (Gal 3:1-5)?

          Is he not addressing baptized believers in Christ?
          It does not say he is, but I assume they were because that is part of the message, the good news. The thief was not baptized nor was Abraham. They were saved because of their belief.

          Gal 3: 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might (subjunctive) come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive (subjunctive) the promised Spirit through faith.

          In verse 14, what is the condition for receiving the promised Spirit?

          I assume the answer would be faith.
          Was not the Holy Spirit in Paul even during his persecution of the Christians. What caused Paul to submit to Jesus? Did Jesus put a qualifier on who He would send the Comforter? I believe the Holy Spirit is in every one of God's children. It takes the Pauls of the World to bring the unsaved to submit to Him. Was the Holy Spirit only in the disciples at Pentecost?

          If gentiles meet the CONDITION that they have faith, in what state are they described?
          Again, the unsaved without the prodding of the Spirit would reject Jesus. He is there waiting for us to hear or read of the Good News. If anyone receives the Word and have faith are saved.

          Are those who have met the condition of faith not described as being in” Christ Jesus?
          Yes

          I see a pattern here. I keep answering your questions and you don't reciprocate. Are my questions beneath qualifying an answer? Do you really want to debate or are you here to preach your theory? I am really getting tired of the one sidedness. It seems that you refuse to entertain my points.

          Who is the “we” in vs 14?

          Is it all people? Or those of faith who are being addressed? I submit it is the latter, not the former.

          Moving on,

          Gal 3: 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given [subjunctive] to those who believe.
          23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

          In verse 22, who is the promise given to? Is it everyone? Or is it to those who meet the condition of faith described throughout this chapter? I submit it is the latter.

          Who then is the “we” in verse 23?

          Is the “we” everyone on the planet? Or is the “we” the believers of faith that are being referred to throughout the entire chapter?

          I think the logical conclusion is that we are talking about the believers in Christ throughout this entire chapter.

          Therefore, there is nothing different here than what I have been saying now for many posts: through the baptism of faith (see verses 26 to 29 of the chapter) one is dead to the flesh (and by extension the Law) and alive as one new body in Christ, under a New Covenant.

          There is no indication this chapter refers universally to all Jews (e.g. those who do not believe and are under the Law). The evidence tells us the opposite: that the chapter applies exclusively to those of faith, who were baptized into Christ.
          According to you Gal3:19 needs a qualifier, but where is that qualifier? Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people. Paul here has changed from referring to the Gentiles to just the Jews. The Law, given only to Israel, WAS designed to last ONLY to the coming of Jesus. With the coming of Jesus the law ended for all of Judaism. The law was dead. It had no power. It couldn't condemn any Jew. It no longer exists. It cannot condemn any Jew that has not accepted Jesus. God changed the Plan for all mankind. We all are subject to the rules of the eternal covenant.



          How did they get to become one body in Christ Jesus? Is it not by becoming baptized believers in Christ Jesus? (Gal 3:26-29, 1Cor 12:13)
          I like to see the verses you are referring. 26 For you are all children[m] of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes.[n] 28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile,[o] slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children[p] of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.

          Are we not children Of God even though we have not accepted Jesus? Even Satan is God's creation. I thought that all mankind are God's children. We deny God when we turn from Jesus, but we are all born in His likeness. He doesn't deny us, we deny Him. Getting back to your point that there are two laws in effect in the World I still do not know how something that has been done away can still govern. So far you have not proved to the contrary. You are just trying to cover up the facts and I so far do not agree with your reasoning. God's eternal covenant governs every living soul.

          Verses 13-17 are describing the formation of ONE BODY via believers joining it through baptism of faith. It is by baptism (Gal 3:26-29, 1Cor 12:13) that believers join the ONE BODY, and that is a continual process of addition.
          That is what God wants and that is why He gave all mankind a better covenant. Whether or not we accept it we are still under it.

          As a result, the Barrier Wall between Jew and Gentile was not universally annulled within the flesh of all people at Christ’s death; it was done away with only in the flesh of Christ. The barrier of separation (which the Law maintained) is done away in the flesh of each person only when he/she passes into the ONE body of Christ, through the baptism of faith, not before.
          It was annulled alright. Most Jews have to accepted that fact. They are clinging to something that God has taken away and given all mankind a better covenant.

          We can look at this from another angle:

          If everyone on the planet became one body at the instant Christ died, then why does the Bible say that we become part of the one body when we are baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ (Gal 3:27-28, 1Cor 12:13, Rom 6:3-5, Rom 7:4, Col 2:11-14)?
          There you go again completely missing the point. The law changed. God, the leader of all mankind gave His Son when it was without a doubt that Israel couldn't come close to keeping the covenant they were under. He came with the new covenant that was given to them and whether they like it or not they are judged by the new covenant. There is no other covenant in which to be judged. As Paul so eloquently wrote in 2Cor3:7-11, the law is done away, the law was, the law was transient. The Holy Spirit has become the guide of all mankind. The gift of the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost is forever and is our guide.

          Aren’t you arguing that already happened for everyone on the planet? Whereas the Bible states his body is the Church (Col 1:24) i.e. not everyone on the planet.
          We are all one under the rules of the new covenant

          You can compare Col 2:11-14, and see the same concepts being expressed in Eph 2 (circumcision of heart, being formerly dead in trespasses, passing through the cross of Christ). Col 2:12 makes it clear this applies to those who are baptized into Christ, not the whole planet.

          In summary, the Law is made old and done away with, for an individual Jew under the Law, through baptism into Christ and not before.
          In summary, Paul never alluded to your theory. Without presenting some obscure verses that I scratch my head to try to understand where they fit in to your belief, just find some verse that tells Jews that they are still under the 613 laws of the defunct old covenant.
          Last edited by Mod8; 02-06-19, 09:47 AM.
          Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by B Student View Post

            OTB,

            I sense that you are frustrated with this discussion and have little interest in what I say and the questions I am raising.
            I sense that there is something wrong with your senses. I am very interested in your beliefs and am challenged which keeps me involved with the greatest book ever compiled.

            We can simply agree to end this discussion at any time. I don’t mind since it’s better to end a discussion than continue one that is going nowhere.
            It seems like all the scripture I have presented has been for naught. You have an agenda and will not relent to any thoughts I have presented. My last post has some very explicit texts that without a doubt has some very good points for what I believe.

            I don’t know why you start using phrases like “your NASB”. The NASB is a very literal translation and well suited to discussing verb tenses:

            "While preserving the literal accuracy of the 1901 ASV, the NASB has sought to render grammar and terminology in contemporary English. Special attention has been given to the rendering of verb tenses to give the English reader a rendering as close as possible to the sense of the original Greek and Hebrew texts. In 1995, the text of the NASB was updated for greater understanding and smoother reading. The New American Standard Bible present on the Bible Gateway matches the 1995 printing.
            The NASB update continues the NASB's tradition of literal translation of the original Greek and Hebrew without compromise. Changes in the text have been kept within the strict parameters set forth by the Lockman Foundation's Fourfold Aim.
            The original NASB has earned the reputation of being the most accurate English Bible translation. The NASB update carries on the NASB tradition of being a true Bible translation, revealing what the original manuscripts actually say--not merely what the translator believes they mean.”"


            https://www.biblegateway.com/version...le-NASB/#vinfo

            Of course the NASB is nowhere near infallible in its translation, so we need to use our heads and all available resources to come to the best understanding of Bible truth that we can. There are many places where I think the NASB has done a poorer translation than other versions, but on the whole I think it’s good.

            Is it “my NASB” simply because I pointed out you were trying to prove verb tenses from a loose translation? Well, simply learn and move on. Everybody here is learning; it’s no big deal.

            Those loose translations serve a purpose; they can be good for the beginner, or even for the advanced student who wants to gain new ideas and insights. However, it’s important to recognize their limitations. Furthermore, it’s important to recognize the limitation of all translations.

            There is a tendency for discussion on these boards to go nowhere. I try to answer every point and question raised along with proof verses in order to attempt to settle issues before jumping on to other points (though I do sometimes break that ideal myself). Many do not.
            Thanks fo that information.
            At this point, I think we’re simply jumping around too much to establish anything. With the remainder of this post I will address Gal 3:23-25 and Eph 2:13-16.

            Galatians 3

            Who is Paul addressing (Gal 3:1-5)?

            Is he not addressing baptized believers in Christ?
            It does not say he is, but I assume they were because that is part of the message, the good news. The thief was not baptized nor was Abraham. They were saved because of their belief.

            Gal 3: 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might (subjunctive) come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive (subjunctive) the promised Spirit through faith.

            In verse 14, what is the condition for receiving the promised Spirit?

            I assume the answer would be faith.
            Was not the Holy Spirit in Paul even during his persecution of the Christians. What caused Paul to submit to Jesus? Did Jesus put a qualifier on who He would send the Comforter? I believe the Holy Spirit is in every one of God's children. It takes the Pauls of the World to bring the unsaved to submit to Him. Was the Holy Spirit only in the disciples at Pentecost?

            If gentiles meet the CONDITION that they have faith, in what state are they described?
            Again, the unsaved without the prodding of the Spirit would reject Jesus. He is there waiting for us to hear or read of the Good News. If anyone receives the Word and have faith are saved.

            Are those who have met the condition of faith not described as being in” Christ Jesus?
            Yes

            I see a pattern here. I keep answering your questions and you don't reciprocate. Are my questions beneath qualifying an answer? Do you really want to debate or are you here to preach your theory? I am really getting tired of the one sidedness. It seems that you refuse to entertain my points.

            Who is the “we” in vs 14?

            Is it all people? Or those of faith who are being addressed? I submit it is the latter, not the former.

            Moving on,

            Gal 3: 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given [subjunctive] to those who believe.
            23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

            In verse 22, who is the promise given to? Is it everyone? Or is it to those who meet the condition of faith described throughout this chapter? I submit it is the latter.

            Who then is the “we” in verse 23?

            Is the “we” everyone on the planet? Or is the “we” the believers of faith that are being referred to throughout the entire chapter?

            I think the logical conclusion is that we are talking about the believers in Christ throughout this entire chapter.

            Therefore, there is nothing different here than what I have been saying now for many posts: through the baptism of faith (see verses 26 to 29 of the chapter) one is dead to the flesh (and by extension the Law) and alive as one new body in Christ, under a New Covenant.

            There is no indication this chapter refers universally to all Jews (e.g. those who do not believe and are under the Law). The evidence tells us the opposite: that the chapter applies exclusively to those of faith, who were baptized into Christ.
            According to you Gal3:19 needs a qualifier, but where is that qualifier? Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people. Paul here has changed from referring to the Gentiles to just the Jews. The Law, given only to Israel, WAS designed to last ONLY to the coming of Jesus. With the coming of Jesus the law ended for all of Judaism. The law was dead. It had no power. It couldn't condemn any Jew. It no longer exists. It cannot condemn any Jew that has not accepted Jesus. God changed the Plan for all mankind. We all are subject to the rules of the eternal covenant.



            How did they get to become one body in Christ Jesus? Is it not by becoming baptized believers in Christ Jesus? (Gal 3:26-29, 1Cor 12:13)

            Verses 13-17 are describing the formation of ONE BODY via believers joining it through baptism of faith. It is by baptism (Gal 3:26-29, 1Cor 12:13) that believers join the ONE BODY, and that is a continual process of addition.

            As a result, the Barrier Wall between Jew and Gentile was not universally annulled within the flesh of all people at Christ’s death; it was done away with only in the flesh of Christ. The barrier of separation (which the Law maintained) is done away in the flesh of each person only when he/she passes into the ONE body of Christ, through the baptism of faith, not before.
            It was God who chose to change His covenant that Israel could not keep. Jesus came to give all mankind a way to attain eternal life. It could not happen under the old now defunct OC. Heb8:13When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear. What does the word obsolete mean to you B?

            We can look at this from another angle:

            If everyone on the planet became one body at the instant Christ died, then why does the Bible say that we become part of the one body when we are baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ (Gal 3:27-28, 1Cor 12:13, Rom 6:3-5, Rom 7:4, Col 2:11-14)? Aren’t you arguing that already happened for everyone on the planet? Whereas the Bible states his body is the Church (Col 1:24) i.e. not everyone on the planet.

            You can compare Col 2:11-14, and see the same concepts being expressed in Eph 2 (circumcision of heart, being formerly dead in trespasses, passing through the cross of Christ). Col 2:12 makes it clear this applies to those who are baptized into Christ, not the whole planet.
            I think you have mistaken that I believe we are all of one body. We are all under one covenant as I just quoted from Heb 8.

            In summary, the Law is made old and done away with, for an individual Jew under the Law, through baptism into Christ and not before.
            In summary we are all under one covenant, one Law given to us by the Son of God. Whether we accept the covenant or not we are still under it. No one is subject to an obsolete covenant, the one that was done away. Spread the Good News that Jesus is our High Priest and He offers salvation to every living soul only through the NC which we are all under.

            Question: how could Jews be under a covenant that has no priesthood. No one to receive their sin offerings. No one to make sacrifice of their behalf? Yes the OC was fading away and finally came to realization with the destruction of Jerusalem. A way of life ended forever. Wherever they migrated to had laws they had to abide by. The covenant they had trampled had ended, the one that could not offer salvation, and was replaced by the covenant of Grace and salvation for them and and us.

            I rest my case.
            Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ontheBeam View Post

              It seems like all the scripture I have presented has been for naught. You have an agenda and will not relent to any thoughts I have presented. My last post has some very explicit texts that without a doubt has some very good points for what I believe.
              My only agenda here is to represent what I understand to be truth and to be forced to learn.

              It does not say he is, but I assume they were because that is part of the message, the good news. The thief was not baptized nor was Abraham. They were saved because of their belief.
              A baptism of faith which results in the death of the old man with Christ and the rebirth of a new individual “in” Christ is something that happens within (and also literally in the process of death and resurrection). It is a requirement for salvation.
              Baptism in water is a command of Christ (Mark 16:16) that represents this death and rebirth that must take place in the believer.

              The thief on the cross literally died with Christ, sharing his sufferings, thus filling that requirement quite literally.

              Rom 6: 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

              So, the body of sin (the flesh) must be crucified and buried with him, represented by our baptism, and we must live a new life in Christ.

              Was not the Holy Spirit in Paul even during his persecution of the Christians. What caused Paul to submit to Jesus? Did Jesus put a qualifier on who He would send the Comforter? I believe the Holy Spirit is in every one of God's children. It takes the Pauls of the World to bring the unsaved to submit to Him. Was the Holy Spirit only in the disciples at Pentecost?
              Yes, the Holy Spirit was only poured out on the disciples. A careful reading reveals this. It is only through acceptance of Christ as Lord and saviour that people received the New Testament gift of the Holy Spirit. This is easily demonstrated by passages like this:

              Acts 19: 1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized it [literally “into”] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

              So you see that the Holy Spirit gift was associated with belief and baptism. The purpose of baptism was to bring people “into” Christ. If everyone is already “in” Christ, then why did they have to be baptized and brought “into” Christ?

              And no, Saul did not have the gift of the Holy Spirit when he was persecuting the Church. We know that he received it the day he was baptized:

              Acts 9: 17 So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened.

              Again, the unsaved without the prodding of the Spirit would reject Jesus. He is there waiting for us to hear or read of the Good News. If anyone receives the Word and have faith are saved.
              I think you are confusing the fact that the Spirit of God is omnipresent (everywhere) with the idea of God’s spirit dwelling within people. God may be everywhere but he doesn’t dwell everywhere. Consider that God is described as dwelling in a future sanctuary (Ex 25:8, Ps 132:14, Ezek 43:7,9) which was to be built so that He could dwell among His people (i.e. by that standard God wasn’t dwelling there before it was built). On the surface it appears a contradiction, but the idea of God “dwelling” somewhere indicates that God’s holy law and power are in total control, like his “kingdom” being somewhere. Followers of Christ are described as a temple (1Cor 3:16, Eph 2:22).

              Jesus prayed “they kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”. When God dwells within a person, God’s will reigns supreme within him, but not before.

              Similarly, God’s spirit does not empower and direct all people in this present world. People are free to choose disobedience or obedience, faith or disbelief. Only those who believe and obey can be said to have the Spirit dwelling within, and receive the associated gifts:

              Gal 3: 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

              Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

              1John 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

              1John 4: 12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit


              According to you Gal3:19 needs a qualifier, but where is that qualifier? Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people. Paul here has changed from referring to the Gentiles to just the Jews. The Law, given only to Israel, WAS designed to last ONLY to the coming of Jesus. With the coming of Jesus the law ended for all of Judaism. The law was dead. It had no power. It couldn't condemn any Jew. It no longer exists. It cannot condemn any Jew that has not accepted Jesus. God changed the Plan for all mankind. We all are subject to the rules of the eternal covenant.
              I’m not arguing that it was God’s purpose for people to stay under the Law, or be justified by the Law. It was the sad reality that people chose to reject Christ and stay under the Law. That is what Paul is saying. Paul’s comments do not say that the Law was annulled or destroyed; only that it had already served its intended purpose.

              There are qualifiers that tell us it is through the walk of faith and obedience to God that one could leave the Law behind.

              Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

              Notice the qualification, IF you are led by the Spirit you are not under the Law.
              And if they weren’t led by the spirit what were the Jews under? What would be your answer?

              Regarding questions from you last post, I thought I had addressed everything.

              You brought up the past tenses from Galatians 3.
              My answer is that there is a good reason they are in the past tense and it’s because he is addressing baptized believers who already passed through the cross of Christ, being buried with him and joined to the one body – the church.
              He was not addressing the Jewish non-believer who wasn’t part of the church and wasn’t part of the ONE body of Christ, so I don’t see how you can apply any of these verses to your theory.

              It’s not like Paul in Ephesians 2 said: “he’s broken down the middle wall of partition and made the whole world into one body in Christ”. He specifically addresses members of the church i.e. the One Body:

              And in Gal 3 he is talking to of the church who already believe:

              Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed….25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

              Before faith came THE BELIEVER was kept under the Law. Now that faith has come THE BELIEVER is no longer under the tutor. Why do you assume Paul is addressing non-believers with these comments (i.e. saying the Jewish non-believer was released from the Law) when the context of the letter is specifically to the believer?

              It was God who chose to change His covenant that Israel could not keep. Jesus came to give all mankind a way to attain eternal life. It could not happen under the old now defunct OC. Heb8:13When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear. What does the word obsolete mean to you B?
              I take it to mean in the sense of being old. He is comparing “new” and “old” which are antonyms. The word here can be translated “obsolete” or “old”. You will see different translations choosing one or the other.

              Heb 8: 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

              The point is that it hadn’t vanished away at the time of writing. That means that Christ did not annul it at the time of his death. The fading was a gradual process.

              I think you have mistaken that I believe we are all of one body. We are all under one covenant as I just quoted from Heb 8.
              If you recognize that the ONE BODY only applies to members of the church, then why do you apply Eph 2:13-16 to non-believing Jews?

              Eph 2: 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

              The dividing wall was broken down for whom? For all Jews or only for believing Jews who were “in” Christ?

              Question: how could Jews be under a covenant that has no priesthood. No one to receive their sin offerings. No one to make sacrifice of their behalf? Yes the OC was fading away and finally came to realization with the destruction of Jerusalem. A way of life ended forever. Wherever they migrated to had laws they had to abide by. The covenant they had trampled had ended, the one that could not offer salvation, and was replaced by the covenant of Grace and salvation for them and us.
              The same way they were under the covenant in Babylon and Persia when there was no temple. I can only suppose they were bound to their Non-Temple obligations.

              Similarly, when the covenant was given it would have taken time to build the tabernacle. What obligations were they under until the time it was built? I would assume the Non-Tabernacle obligations.

              At the time of most NT writing, there still was a Levitical priesthood (Heb 8:4). After AD 70 they were limited to the same things they were in Babylon.

              Have you shifted your view at all? I notice that you now write: “The OC was fading away and finally came to realization with the destruction of Jerusalem”, whereas before I thought you were saying it ended at the death of Christ.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by B Student View Post

                My only agenda here is to represent what I understand to be truth and to be forced to learn.
                Since this forum is about the beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists it seems like we are both posting our concepts in the wrong place. Unless your agenda is leading to or about what SDAs believe about what covenant Jews are under, I believe we should carry this debate elsewhere. What are your thoughts?

                My agenda for posting on the SDA forum is to explain that Christians are not under the old covenant, therefore not under any command to observe days. It is so easy to go off on a tangent if indeed we are doing so.



                A baptism of faith which results in the death of the old man with Christ and the rebirth of a new individual “in” Christ is something that happens within (and also literally in the process of death and resurrection). It is a requirement for salvation.
                Baptism in water is a command of Christ (Mark 16:16) that represents this death and rebirth that must take place in the believer.

                The thief on the cross literally died with Christ, sharing his sufferings, thus filling that requirement quite literally.

                Rom 6: 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

                So, the body of sin (the flesh) must be crucified and buried with him, represented by our baptism, and we must live a new life in Christ.



                Yes, the Holy Spirit was only poured out on the disciples. A careful reading reveals this. It is only through acceptance of Christ as Lord and saviour that people received the New Testament gift of the Holy Spirit. This is easily demonstrated by passages like this:

                Acts 19: 1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized it [literally “into”] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

                So you see that the Holy Spirit gift was associated with belief and baptism. The purpose of baptism was to bring people “into” Christ. If everyone is already “in” Christ, then why did they have to be baptized and brought “into” Christ?

                And no, Saul did not have the gift of the Holy Spirit when he was persecuting the Church. We know that he received it the day he was baptized:

                Acts 9: 17 So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened.



                I think you are confusing the fact that the Spirit of God is omnipresent (everywhere) with the idea of God’s spirit dwelling within people. God may be everywhere but he doesn’t dwell everywhere. Consider that God is described as dwelling in a future sanctuary (Ex 25:8, Ps 132:14, Ezek 43:7,9) which was to be built so that He could dwell among His people (i.e. by that standard God wasn’t dwelling there before it was built). On the surface it appears a contradiction, but the idea of God “dwelling” somewhere indicates that God’s holy law and power are in total control, like his “kingdom” being somewhere. Followers of Christ are described as a temple (1Cor 3:16, Eph 2:22).

                Jesus prayed “they kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”. When God dwells within a person, God’s will reigns supreme within him, but not before.

                Similarly, God’s spirit does not empower and direct all people in this present world. People are free to choose disobedience or obedience, faith or disbelief. Only those who believe and obey can be said to have the Spirit dwelling within, and receive the associated gifts:

                Gal 3: 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

                Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

                1John 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

                1John 4: 12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit




                I’m not arguing that it was God’s purpose for people to stay under the Law, or be justified by the Law. It was the sad reality that people chose to reject Christ and stay under the Law. That is what Paul is saying. Paul’s comments do not say that the Law was annulled or destroyed; only that it had already served its intended purpose.

                There are qualifiers that tell us it is through the walk of faith and obedience to God that one could leave the Law behind.

                Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

                Notice the qualification, IF you are led by the Spirit you are not under the Law.
                And if they weren’t led by the spirit what were the Jews under? What would be your answer?

                Regarding questions from you last post, I thought I had addressed everything.

                You brought up the past tenses from Galatians 3.
                My answer is that there is a good reason they are in the past tense and it’s because he is addressing baptized believers who already passed through the cross of Christ, being buried with him and joined to the one body – the church.
                He was not addressing the Jewish non-believer who wasn’t part of the church and wasn’t part of the ONE body of Christ, so I don’t see how you can apply any of these verses to your theory.

                It’s not like Paul in Ephesians 2 said: “he’s broken down the middle wall of partition and made the whole world into one body in Christ”. He specifically addresses members of the church i.e. the One Body:

                And in Gal 3 he is talking to of the church who already believe:

                Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed….25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

                Before faith came THE BELIEVER was kept under the Law. Now that faith has come THE BELIEVER is no longer under the tutor. Why do you assume Paul is addressing non-believers with these comments (i.e. saying the Jewish non-believer was released from the Law) when the context of the letter is specifically to the believer?



                I take it to mean in the sense of being old. He is comparing “new” and “old” which are antonyms. The word here can be translated “obsolete” or “old”. You will see different translations choosing one or the other.

                Heb 8: 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.

                The point is that it hadn’t vanished away at the time of writing. That means that Christ did not annul it at the time of his death. The fading was a gradual process.



                If you recognize that the ONE BODY only applies to members of the church, then why do you apply Eph 2:13-16 to non-believing Jews?

                Eph 2: 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

                The dividing wall was broken down for whom? For all Jews or only for believing Jews who were “in” Christ?



                The same way they were under the covenant in Babylon and Persia when there was no temple. I can only suppose they were bound to their Non-Temple obligations.

                Similarly, when the covenant was given it would have taken time to build the tabernacle. What obligations were they under until the time it was built? I would assume the Non-Tabernacle obligations.

                At the time of most NT writing, there still was a Levitical priesthood (Heb 8:4). After AD 70 they were limited to the same things they were in Babylon.

                Have you shifted your view at all? I notice that you now write: “The OC was fading away and finally came to realization with the destruction of Jerusalem”, whereas before I thought you were saying it ended at the death of Christ.
                Thanks for enlightening me on some of your points.

                Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ontheBeam View Post
                  Since this forum is about the beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists it seems like we are both posting our concepts in the wrong place. Unless your agenda is leading to or about what SDAs believe about what covenant Jews are under, I believe we should carry this debate elsewhere. What are your thoughts?

                  My agenda for posting on the SDA forum is to explain that Christians are not under the old covenant, therefore not under any command to observe days. It is so easy to go off on a tangent if indeed we are doing so.


                  Thanks for enlightening me on some of your points.

                  OTB,

                  As I think you know, I’m not a Seventh Day Adventist.

                  Since neither of us are SDAs does this discussion belong here? I don’t know; the themes are relevant to the covenants, but not in agreement with SDA thinking.

                  If you believe this discussion is profitable and warrants continuing then let me know where.

                  Comment


                  • Hi B, I honestly do not know as to what forum our discussion would fit. No one on the SDA forum are interested in the covenants. Start trying to help them to acknowledge that the OC has been replaced with the new and better covenant causes them to hemorrhage.

                    I will look around.
                    Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.

                    Comment


                    • "Bible Questions and Discussion" could be the forum we might get others to join in with thoughts.
                      Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.

                      Comment


                      • That Sounds fine.

                        Do you want to start the thread?

                        Comment


                        • Sure, After I get home this afternoon.
                          Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.

                          Comment

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