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Death of the body does not mean death of the soul

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  • Death of the body does not mean death of the soul

    TrevorL, you had said there was some confusion in my post on the JW Forum so I brought last discussion here if you'd like to explain.

    Originally posted by TrevorL
    Greetings again HollyWood, I agree that the first resurrection is future, when Christ returns to the earth.
    So what were you going on about with the following post?!

    Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Doug (TibiasDad ), Could I ask your opinion of what happened to the following after their resurrection:
    Matthew 27:50–53 (KJV): 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the spirit. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
    Please also note that the record suggests that before they rose from their graves that they were asleep, or at least their bodies were asleep. Was their immortal souls awake, and did their immortal souls recombine with their bodies. Where are these people now? Where is their bodies? Where is their so-called immortal souls?

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    You brought it up to try to poke holes in the fact that the death of the body does not mean the death of the soul, yet you know the first resurrection is yet future so what was that all about?

    Originally posted by TrevorL
    Well, based on these occurrences that you mention, and we know that Moses died and was buried, perhaps you may like to tell me whether Peter, James and John saw Moses’ immortal soul or his body, especially as this incident is being used to prove that Moses has an immortal soul. What does an immortal soul look like? Also how is it that Moses and Elijah appeared in glory?
    I figure our souls look like us because the rich man recognized Lazarus; however, in the vision on the Mount, Peter, James and John would have had to be told in some way other than appearance because how would they know what those men looked like?

    Originally posted by TrevorL
    As you take the souls under the Altar as literal, could you please explain what is represented by the Altar in this vision. What is it and where was it?
    The altar in Revelation 6:9-11 is in heaven, based on the other appearances of it in Revelation. It would be the heavenly pattern that the altar on earth was based on. Hebrews 9:23.
    Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

  • #2
    Originally posted by HollyWood View Post
    TrevorL, you had said there was some confusion in my post on the JW Forum so I brought last discussion here if you'd like to explain.



    So what were you going on about with the following post?!



    You brought it up to try to poke holes in the fact that the death of the body does not mean the death of the soul, yet you know the first resurrection is yet future so what was that all about?



    I figure our souls look like us because the rich man recognized Lazarus; however, in the vision on the Mount, Peter, James and John would have had to be told in some way other than appearance because how would they know what those men looked like?



    The altar in Revelation 6:9-11 is in heaven, based on the other appearances of it in Revelation. It would be the heavenly pattern that the altar on earth was based on. Hebrews 9:23.

    On the very near rapture day ALL born again believers will be changed in the twinkle of the eye and receive new imortal, eternal bodies. PTL.

    Comment


    • #3
      Greetings again HollyWood,
      Originally posted by HollyWood;n56***96
      TrevorL, you had said there was some confusion in my post on the JW Forum so I brought last discussion here if you'd like to explain.
      So what were you going on about with the following post?!
      You brought it up to try to poke holes in the fact that the death of the body does not mean the death of the soul, yet you know the first resurrection is yet future so what was that all about?
      I appreciate your effort to maintain the discussion and resolve some of the items outstanding. Firstly, to some extent what has happened has taken the wind out of my sails, and part of the result is that I see the need to proceed with a few projects at the present time.

      To clarify what you state above, I was trying to compare the temporary resurrection of those at the death and resurrection of Jesus, with how I believe what happened with Moses. Moses was dead, he was raised for a short time for the transfiguration, and then he would be laid to rest again by God. Compare, those in the time of Christ, they were dead, they rose and appeared to many, and then they would be laid to rest again by God. The resurrection of those in the time of Christ is not related to the first resurrection which is still future. Overall I was suggesting that the appearance of Moses was not his immortal soul.

      Kind regards
      Trevor

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
        Greetings again HollyWood, I appreciate your effort to maintain the discussion and resolve some of the items outstanding. Firstly, to some extent what has happened has taken the wind out of my sails, and part of the result is that I see the need to proceed with a few projects at the present time.

        To clarify what you state above, I was trying to compare the temporary resurrection of those at the death and resurrection of Jesus, with how I believe what happened with Moses. Moses was dead, he was raised for a short time for the transfiguration, and then he would be laid to rest again by God. Compare, those in the time of Christ, they were dead, they rose and appeared to many, and then they would be laid to rest again by God. The resurrection of those in the time of Christ is not related to the first resurrection which is still future. Overall I was suggesting that the appearance of Moses was not his immortal soul.

        Kind regards
        Trevor
        Ah, okay, now I understand. Thanks for the additional explanation. I appreciate it.

        Thinking about all the instances of folks who were brought back to life in the Bible, the appearance of Elijah and Moses is a somewhat different scenario, don't you think? All the others reference the body coming back to life, even coming right out of their graves. The vision on the Mount doesn't. So there's that difference to consider. In fact, in researching resurrections in the Bible, Elijah and Moses are not mentioned. (In my other list I neglected to reference the widow of Nain's son.)


        Holly
        Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

        Comment


        • #5
          Greetings again Hollywood,
          Originally posted by HollyWood View Post
          Ah, okay, now I understand. Thanks for the additional explanation. I appreciate it. Thinking about all the instances of folks who were brought back to life in the Bible, the appearance of Elijah and Moses is a somewhat different scenario, don't you think? All the others reference the body coming back to life, even coming right out of their graves. The vision on the Mount doesn't. So there's that difference to consider. In fact, in researching resurrections in the Bible, Elijah and Moses are not mentioned. (In my other list I neglected to reference the widow of Nain's son.)
          I agree, we are not told what happened to Moses and Elijah immediately before or after the Transfiguration. As far as Moses is concerned, we both agree that Moses died, and I assume we both believe that he will be the subject of the resurrection at the return of Jesus from heaven. Thus the Scriptures are silent as to how he appeared at the time of Christ, was he raised from the dead, or was this evidence that his soul continued after the death of his body, as the title of your thread suggests?

          Looking at the Transfiguration, I would be interested in your assessment of what is depicted as far as Jesus is concerned. If this incident was meant to teach that man has an immortal soul, (or as you suggested a soul that lives on after death), what about Jesus and his soul here? If as you claim man has a separate soul, when Jesus was revealed in glory, then is this his soul or his body? I suggest that this was his body that was transfigured. The only time anyone could claim that Jesus’ soul was separate from his body was the three days after his death, but Acts 2:31 tells us that his soul was in hell for these three days, and therefore not in glory. His body was also in the grave for three days. Btw, I disagree with the popular view of the soul of Jesus here, as I believe this is also speaking of Jesus and his body and the “hell” here is the grave. So I suggest as far as Jesus is concerned, this is not speaking of his soul as a separate entity.

          I suggest that what is depicted is Jesus in glory, and the impression is that this speaks of what Jesus would be like after his resurrection. Peter speaks of the incident and suggests the following lesson that he had gleaned and that he shares with us:
          2 Peter 1:16–18 (KJV): 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
          Peter associates the revelation of Jesus in glory at the Transfiguration as evidence that Jesus will return in power and glory, as they had been witnesses of his majesty. Thus the lesson as far as Jesus is concerned is not in reference to his immortal soul (or soul that lives on after the death of the body).

          But what about Moses and Elijah. Did they appear with Jesus in order to teach that man has a soul that lives on after the death of the body? I suggest no, partly because that Moses and Elijah also appeared in glory:
          Luke 9:28–31 (KJV): 28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. 29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
          Not only did Jesus appear in glory, and this was before his resurrection and glorification, Moses and Elijah also appeared in glory. My suggestion is that this was also before their resurrection and glorification, and therefore the three, Jesus, Moses and Elijah are revealed what they would be like in the Kingdom, after the return of Jesus. The Transfiguration is a vision, (even using the real Moses and Elijah - temporary resurrection?) of what will happen in the future when Moses and Elijah will have their mortal bodies changed to immortality, and in fellowship with Jesus in the future Kingdom of God upon the earth.

          Kind regards
          Trevor

          Comment


          • #6
            Greetings again Hollywood,

            I would like to address the title of your thread “Death of the body does not mean death of the soul” and to abbreviate a portion of your OP you claim this as a fact:
            Originally posted by HollyWood View Post
            You brought it up to try to poke holes in the fact that the death of the body does not mean the death of the soul, …
            The following defines the word “soul”. This teaches that man was formed from the dust and became a living soul once God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.
            Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
            When we breathe our last, we become a dead soul. There is no mention of an ever-living soul.

            After Adam sinned the following describes his destiny:
            Genesis 3:19 (KJV): In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return
            It does not say, your body will return to dust and your soul will continue to live, but it clearly says that Adam himself would return to the dust. There is no mention of a separate soul.

            The following describe the state of the dead, that there is no consciousness after death:
            Psalm 6:4–5 (KJV): 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies’ sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
            Psalm 146:1–4 (KJV): 1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul. 2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.


            The following shows that man rests in the dust until the resurrection:
            Isaiah 26:19 (KJV): Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
            Daniel 12:2 (KJV): And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


            The above then represents a start in defining what happens to a man after he dies. He returns to the dust, his thoughts cease, and he awaits until Christ returns to awake him from the sleep of death.

            Kind regards
            Trevor


            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
              Greetings again Hollywood, I agree, we are not told what happened to Moses and Elijah immediately before or after the Transfiguration. As far as Moses is concerned, we both agree that Moses died, and I assume we both believe that he will be the subject of the resurrection at the return of Jesus from heaven. Thus the Scriptures are silent as to how he appeared at the time of Christ, was he raised from the dead, or was this evidence that his soul continued after the death of his body, as the title of your thread suggests?

              Looking at the Transfiguration, I would be interested in your assessment of what is depicted as far as Jesus is concerned. If this incident was meant to teach that man has an immortal soul, (or as you suggested a soul that lives on after death), what about Jesus and his soul here? If as you claim man has a separate soul, when Jesus was revealed in glory, then is this his soul or his body? I suggest that this was his body that was transfigured. The only time anyone could claim that Jesus’ soul was separate from his body was the three days after his death, but Acts 2:31 tells us that his soul was in hell for these three days, and therefore not in glory. His body was also in the grave for three days. Btw, I disagree with the popular view of the soul of Jesus here, as I believe this is also speaking of Jesus and his body and the “hell” here is the grave. So I suggest as far as Jesus is concerned, this is not speaking of his soul as a separate entity.

              I suggest that what is depicted is Jesus in glory, and the impression is that this speaks of what Jesus would be like after his resurrection. Peter speaks of the incident and suggests the following lesson that he had gleaned and that he shares with us:
              2 Peter 1:16–18 (KJV): 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
              Peter associates the revelation of Jesus in glory at the Transfiguration as evidence that Jesus will return in power and glory, as they had been witnesses of his majesty. Thus the lesson as far as Jesus is concerned is not in reference to his immortal soul (or soul that lives on after the death of the body).

              But what about Moses and Elijah. Did they appear with Jesus in order to teach that man has a soul that lives on after the death of the body? I suggest no, partly because that Moses and Elijah also appeared in glory:
              Luke 9:28–31 (KJV): 28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. 29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
              Not only did Jesus appear in glory, and this was before his resurrection and glorification, Moses and Elijah also appeared in glory. My suggestion is that this was also before their resurrection and glorification, and therefore the three, Jesus, Moses and Elijah are revealed what they would be like in the Kingdom, after the return of Jesus. The Transfiguration is a vision, (even using the real Moses and Elijah - temporary resurrection?) of what will happen in the future when Moses and Elijah will have their mortal bodies changed to immortality, and in fellowship with Jesus in the future Kingdom of God upon the earth.

              Kind regards
              Trevor
              I don't think the Transfiguration was specifically about the soul surviving the death of the body, though it clearly shows that Moses and Elijah have survived the deaths of their bodies. I would not agree that they aren't the real Moses and Elijah, nor is their appearance considered a resurrection of their bodies. It sounds like you're viewing it as a projection into the future of some sort, like being transported to the future that isn't actually real yet.
              Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
                Greetings again Hollywood,

                I would like to address the title of your thread “Death of the body does not mean death of the soul” and to abbreviate a portion of your OP you claim this as a fact: The following defines the word “soul”. This teaches that man was formed from the dust and became a living soul once God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.
                Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
                When we breathe our last, we become a dead soul. There is no mention of an ever-living soul.

                After Adam sinned the following describes his destiny:
                Genesis 3:19 (KJV): In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return
                It does not say, your body will return to dust and your soul will continue to live, but it clearly says that Adam himself would return to the dust. There is no mention of a separate soul.

                The following describe the state of the dead, that there is no consciousness after death:
                Psalm 6:4–5 (KJV): 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies’ sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
                Psalm 146:1–4 (KJV): 1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul. 2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.


                The following shows that man rests in the dust until the resurrection:
                Isaiah 26:19 (KJV): Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
                Daniel 12:2 (KJV): And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


                The above then represents a start in defining what happens to a man after he dies. He returns to the dust, his thoughts cease, and he awaits until Christ returns to awake him from the sleep of death.

                Kind regards
                Trevor

                Trevor, have you read Matt Slick's article about this? It might be a good starting point.

                https://carm.org/soul-cease-exist-after-death
                Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Greetings again HollyWood,
                  Originally posted by HollyWood View Post
                  I don't think the Transfiguration was specifically about the soul surviving the death of the body, though it clearly shows that Moses and Elijah have survived the deaths of their bodies. I would not agree that they aren't the real Moses and Elijah, nor is their appearance considered a resurrection of their bodies. It sounds like you're viewing it as a projection into the future of some sort, like being transported to the future that isn't actually real yet.
                  Yes, my present suggestion is that this was not time travel, but Jesus was transfigured, that is for the purpose of this incident, Jesus was effectively changed from his mortality and weakness, to appear at least as if he was an immortal being, and part of this was the glory of his countenance and raiment. As Peter associates this with his glory when he returns to the earth, then it is at least prefiguring his glorification after his resurrection. When Jesus appeared to Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus, he appeared to him in glory. So yes, I do not believe that Moses and Elijah appeared as immortal or ever-living souls, but they were similarly shown what they would be like in the Kingdom, after their resurrection and glorification.
                  Originally posted by HollyWood View Post
                  Trevor, have you read Matt Slick's article about this? It might be a good starting point. http://<a href="https://carm.org/sou...fter-death</a>
                  Yes, I have now, but I was disappointed with his article. It starts with the following:
                  “No, the soul does not cease to exist after death. The Bible clearly teaches us in the New Testament that we continue on after death. We will go over those Scriptures, but before we do, those who affirm soul sleep often refer to the Old Testament and obtain their doctrine from it alone.”

                  Now the only OT Scriptures that he addresses are Ecclesiastes 9:5 and 12:7. Perhaps from a non-immortal soul point of view, these could be considered, but they would not be my choice. My preference would be to go back to Genesis where such subjects as the soul and death are introduced and defined, and then move to some of the statements in the Psalms and the Prophets. I have taken this course in my previous post, and I suggest is the Bible foundation on this subject. Thus Matt has not responded to these important verses, and these form the framework of my understanding on this subject.

                  Also the first two NT Scriptures at least that Matt introduces, I have considered in detail, here for the Transfiguration, and on the JW thread for the Rich Man and Lazarus. Matt has not mentioned the association of Lazarus and the Resurrection that I mentioned in that thread.

                  Christadelphian literature is very extensive on this subject, in Elpis Israel 1848 John Thomas, Christendom Astray 1880s Robert Roberts, God’s Way John Carter 1948, What the Bible Teaches Harry Tennant 1990s and numerous pamphlets issued by the Christadelphian Office, Logos Publications and Printland Publishers. These are only a sample of what is available.

                  A few brief comments on funerals. One of my mates and his wife lived in a rural area and were previously members of the Church of England. As they were very much part of the community, they have attended many Church of England funerals, and my mate tells me that the Minister always says that the soul of the deceased is now in heaven, and there is no particular mention of the return of Christ and the resurrection. Recently we laid my mother in law to rest, buried 38 years later in the same grave as her husband, but there they rest, and a small inscription makes some reference to the return of Jesus and the resurrection. The same message was given by her grandson in the grave side service. We believe that they will rise together, and be gathered unto Jesus and my father in law will not be conscious of the 38 years that his widow lived before her rest.

                  Kind regards
                  Trevor


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
                    Greetings again HollyWood,Yes, my present suggestion is that this was not time travel, but Jesus was transfigured, that is for the purpose of this incident, Jesus was effectively changed from his mortality and weakness, to appear at least as if he was an immortal being, and part of this was the glory of his countenance and raiment. As Peter associates this with his glory when he returns to the earth, then it is at least prefiguring his glorification after his resurrection. When Jesus appeared to Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus, he appeared to him in glory. So yes, I do not believe that Moses and Elijah appeared as immortal or ever-living souls, but they were similarly shown what they would be like in the Kingdom, after their resurrection and glorification.
                    Yes, I have now, but I was disappointed with his article. It starts with the following:
                    “No, the soul does not cease to exist after death. The Bible clearly teaches us in the New Testament that we continue on after death. We will go over those Scriptures, but before we do, those who affirm soul sleep often refer to the Old Testament and obtain their doctrine from it alone.”

                    Now the only OT Scriptures that he addresses are Ecclesiastes 9:5 and 12:7. Perhaps from a non-immortal soul point of view, these could be considered, but they would not be my choice. My preference would be to go back to Genesis where such subjects as the soul and death are introduced and defined, and then move to some of the statements in the Psalms and the Prophets. I have taken this course in my previous post, and I suggest is the Bible foundation on this subject. Thus Matt has not responded to these important verses, and these form the framework of my understanding on this subject.

                    Also the first two NT Scriptures at least that Matt introduces, I have considered in detail, here for the Transfiguration, and on the JW thread for the Rich Man and Lazarus. Matt has not mentioned the association of Lazarus and the Resurrection that I mentioned in that thread.

                    Christadelphian literature is very extensive on this subject, in Elpis Israel 1848 John Thomas, Christendom Astray 1880s Robert Roberts, God’s Way John Carter 1948, What the Bible Teaches Harry Tennant 1990s and numerous pamphlets issued by the Christadelphian Office, Logos Publications and Printland Publishers. These are only a sample of what is available.

                    A few brief comments on funerals. One of my mates and his wife lived in a rural area and were previously members of the Church of England. As they were very much part of the community, they have attended many Church of England funerals, and my mate tells me that the Minister always says that the soul of the deceased is now in heaven, and there is no particular mention of the return of Christ and the resurrection. Recently we laid my mother in law to rest, buried 38 years later in the same grave as her husband, but there they rest, and a small inscription makes some reference to the return of Jesus and the resurrection. The same message was given by her grandson in the grave side service. We believe that they will rise together, and be gathered unto Jesus and my father in law will not be conscious of the 38 years that his widow lived before her rest.

                    Kind regards
                    Trevor

                    Doug explained about Genesis and how Adam returning to the dust was spoken of his body, And it could be said that Adam's soul was in the earth because no one was going to heaven until after Jesus' death and resurrection. The dead went to either a place of torment or a place of comfort, as shown in Luke 16:19-31. After Jesus' death, he went there too and led those in the place of comfort to heaven.

                    Ephesians 4:8-10 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.” (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)


                    Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Greetings again HollyWood,
                      Originally posted by HollyWood View Post
                      Doug explained about Genesis and how Adam returning to the dust was spoken of his body, And it could be said that Adam's soul was in the earth because no one was going to heaven until after Jesus' death and resurrection. The dead went to either a place of torment or a place of comfort, as shown in Luke 16:19-31. After Jesus' death, he went there too and led those in the place of comfort to heaven.
                      The language and concepts that you use above is contrary to the language of the following:
                      Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
                      This is the Biblical definition of the soul as it relates to Adam and his creation. Another aspect of this definition is that Paul uses this as a definition of the “natural body” in 1 Corinthians 15:40-49. So I find your above explanation very confusing. Jesus did not go to Abraham’s bosom, as it says Jesus’ soul was in hell for the three days, and that was where the Rich Man was. So was Abraham’s bosom a place of comfort somewhere inside the crust of the earth? Possibly you will suggest that there were two different compartments in hell.

                      The following is also what I stated previously:
                      After Adam sinned the following describes his destiny:
                      Genesis 3:19 (KJV): In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return
                      It does not say, your body will return to dust and your soul will continue to live, but it clearly says that Adam himself would return to the dust. There is no mention of a separate soul.
                      Ephesians 4:8-10 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.” (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
                      This speaks of Jesus’ victory over sin and death. The result of his death and resurrection is that those who believe in him and become his disciples will be freed from sin and death, and at the return of Jesus they will be resurrected and be with him in His Kingdom. The lower parts of the earth can be considered how he suffered and died sharing the sin of the world and placed into the tomb. It is not speaking of a hell beneath the crust of the earth.

                      Kind regards
                      Trevor

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
                        Greetings again HollyWood, The language and concepts that you use above is contrary to the language of the following:
                        Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
                        This is the Biblical definition of the soul as it relates to Adam and his creation. Another aspect of this definition is that Paul uses this as a definition of the “natural body” in 1 Corinthians 15:40-49. So I find your above explanation very confusing. Jesus did not go to Abraham’s bosom, as it says Jesus’ soul was in hell for the three days, and that was where the Rich Man was. So was Abraham’s bosom a place of comfort somewhere inside the crust of the earth? Possibly you will suggest that there were two different compartments in hell.

                        The following is also what I stated previously:
                        After Adam sinned the following describes his destiny:
                        Genesis 3:19 (KJV): In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return
                        It does not say, your body will return to dust and your soul will continue to live, but it clearly says that Adam himself would return to the dust. There is no mention of a separate soul.

                        This speaks of Jesus’ victory over sin and death. The result of his death and resurrection is that those who believe in him and become his disciples will be freed from sin and death, and at the return of Jesus they will be resurrected and be with him in His Kingdom. The lower parts of the earth can be considered how he suffered and died sharing the sin of the world and placed into the tomb. It is not speaking of a hell beneath the crust of the earth.

                        Kind regards
                        Trevor
                        Luke 23:43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

                        Matthew 12:40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

                        1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah,

                        Philippians 1:20-24 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

                        Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
                        Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Greetings again HollyWood,
                          Originally posted by HollyWood View Post
                          Luke 23:43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
                          This has been translated with different punctuation marks, and I suggest that this makes sense, and gives a meaningful answer to the Thief’s question, and especially as Jesus was dead and in the grave for three days:
                          Luke 23:42–43 (KJV adjusted): 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

                          Kind regards
                          Trevor


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
                            Greetings again HollyWood, This has been translated with different punctuation marks, and I suggest that this makes sense, and gives a meaningful answer to the Thief’s question, and especially as Jesus was dead and in the grave for three days:
                            Luke 23:42–43 (KJV adjusted): 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

                            Kind regards
                            Trevor

                            What is the KJV adjusted translation? It's similar to the NWT.

                            But all of these from Bible Gateway show that Jesus and the thief were in paradise that same day:

                            KJ21
                            And Jesus said unto him, “Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.”
                            ASV
                            And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
                            AMP
                            Jesus said to him, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
                            AMPC
                            And He answered him, Truly I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.
                            BRG
                            And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
                            CSB
                            And he said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
                            CEB
                            Jesus replied, “I assure you that today you will be with me in paradise.”
                            CJB
                            Yeshua said to him, “Yes! I promise that you will be with me today in Gan-‘Eden.”
                            CEV
                            Jesus replied, “I promise that today you will be with me in paradise.”
                            DARBY
                            And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
                            DLNT
                            And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, you will be with Me today in paradise”.
                            DRA
                            And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
                            ERV
                            Then Jesus said to him, “I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
                            EHV
                            Jesus said to him, “Amen I tell you: Today you will be with me in paradise.”
                            ESV
                            And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
                            ESVUK
                            And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
                            EXB
                            Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise [heaven or the presence of God].”
                            GNV
                            Then Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
                            GW
                            Jesus said to him, “I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise.”
                            GNT
                            Jesus said to him, “I promise you that today you will be in Paradise with me.”
                            HCSB
                            And He said to him, “I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.”
                            ICB
                            Then Jesus said to him, “Listen! What I say is true: Today you will be with me in paradise!”
                            ISV
                            Jesus told him, “I tell you with certainty, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
                            PHILLIPS
                            And Jesus answered, “I tell you truly, this day you will be with me in paradise.”
                            JUB
                            And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
                            KJV
                            And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
                            AKJV
                            And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
                            LEB
                            And he said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
                            TLB
                            And Jesus replied, “Today you will be with me in Paradise. This is a solemn promise.”
                            MSG
                            He said, “Don’t worry, I will. Today you will join me in paradise.”
                            MEV
                            Jesus said to him, “Truly, I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
                            MOUNCE
                            And Jesus said to him, “In solemn truth I tell you: today you will be with me in · paradise.”
                            NOG
                            Yeshua said to him, “I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise.”
                            NABRE
                            He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
                            NASB
                            And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
                            NCV
                            Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
                            NET
                            And Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
                            NIRV
                            Jesus answered him, “What I’m about to tell you is true. Today you will be with me in paradise.”
                            NIV
                            Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
                            NIVUK
                            Jesus answered him, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.’
                            NKJV
                            And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
                            NLV
                            Jesus said to him, “For sure, I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
                            NLT
                            And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
                            NMB
                            And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise.
                            NRSV
                            He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
                            NRSVA
                            He replied, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.’
                            NRSVACE
                            He replied, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.’
                            NRSVCE
                            He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
                            NTE
                            ‘I’m telling you the truth,’ replied Jesus, ‘you’ll be with me in paradise, this very day.’
                            OJB
                            And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said to him, Omein, I say to you, hayom (today) with me you will be in Gan Eden.
                            TPT
                            Jesus responded,“I promise you—this very day you will enter paradise with me.”
                            RSV
                            And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
                            RSVCE
                            And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
                            TLV
                            Yeshua said to him, “Amen, I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
                            VOICE
                            Jesus: I promise you that this very day you will be with Me in paradise.
                            WEB
                            Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
                            WE
                            And Jesus said to him, `I tell you the truth. Today you will be with me in God's garden of paradise.'
                            WYC
                            And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
                            YLT
                            and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'


                            Holly
                            Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Greetings again HollyWood,
                              Originally posted by HollyWood View Post
                              What is the KJV adjusted translation? It's similar to the NWT.
                              What I wrote and called “the KJV adjusted translation” was my adjustment to the KJV by moving the comma. In other words the thief would not have to wait until the resurrection to know his fate, but he is told that he will not only be raised when Jesus comes to establish His Kingdom upon the earth, but he is also assured that he will be accepted at the Judgement Seat, and will be with Jesus in the Garden of Eden restored, that is Paradise.
                              Revelation 2:7 (KJV): He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
                              Isaiah 51:3 (KJV): For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
                              Ezekiel 36:35 (KJV): And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

                              The first of these Revelation 2:7 takes us right back to Genesis 3 where man was excluded from the Garden so that he would not eat of the tree and live for ever. But you have somehow bypassed the need of the tree in your claim that the soul lives on after death.
                              But all of these from Bible Gateway show that Jesus and the thief were in paradise that same day:
                              KJ21: And Jesus said unto him, “Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.”
                              ASV: And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.
                              etc.
                              Possibly the only thing that this proves is that the main translator or the majority of the translation committee believed in the doctrine of immortals souls, or of souls that are conscious after death, and go to heaven. My immediate reaction to all the translators associated with the Church of England versions would be that they were used to going to funerals where the good dead are immediately considered to be in heaven, and even the bad and criminals, if their family have paid the fee, will also he assigned to heaven.

                              Actually I would not have thought of looking at the NWT, as I do not accept that it is a good or reliable translation, but now I have looked, and yes they move the comma. In your search did you encounter any other translation that moved the comma, or even suggested this in the Margin? I immediately thought of two, and they do give or suggest the alternative translation. The first of these, Rotherham, actually gives this as his main translation:
                              Luke 23:42-43 (Rotherham): 42 And he went on to say –
                              Jesus! remember me, whensoever thou shalt come into thy kingdom.
                              43 And he said unto him –
                              Verily I say unto thee this day:
                              With me shalt thou be in Paradise.


                              I also looked at the Companion Bible, attributed to Ethelbert Bullinger. His Bible is different in that his main text is the KJV, but he adds notes or alternatives in his margin. In his marginal notes he says:
                              43 I say unto thee, To day = “I say unto thee to day”. And against To day: Connect this with “I say”, to emphasise the solemnity of the occasion; not with “shalt thou be”. As well as other notes, he refers to a half page article, called Appendix 173, and the first paragraph is interesting as far as his suggestion concerning the comma:
                              Appendix 173: “The interpretation of this verse depends entirely on punctuation, which rests wholly on human authority, the Greek manuscripts having no punctuation of any kind till the ninth century … ”. The rest of the Appendix describes why he considers the alternative translation to the KJV is correct.

                              I thought you could be interested in the following article:
                              By Dr. Eli Lizorkin-Eyzenberg and Jared Seltzer, Israel Bible Centre
                              Many people are unsure whether Jesus’ story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) happened or whether it is only a parable (a Jewish story with a deeper meaning). Typically, parables do not include personal names like Lazarus and Abraham, but on the other hand, the concepts of “Abraham’s bosom” or dialogue with souls in Hades that we find in the Lukan parable are unattested elsewhere in the Bible. Plenty of Jewish sources outside of the Bible, however, indicate that these themes were common beliefs at the time: that the bosom of Abraham and other patriarchs is the resting place for the righteous, and that there was a fiery holding realm for the wicked until the final judgment (cf. 4 Maccabees 13:17; Apocalypse of Zephaniah; b. Kiddushin 72b).
                              Jesus describes the main character of the parable as (1) rich, (2) dressed in purple and fine linen (spoiler alert: see Exod 28:5), (3) living in luxury, (4) receiving good things, (5) living in his father’s house (6) with five brothers (7) who all had Moses and the prophets (8) though they did not listen to them, such that (9) they would not repent even if someone were resurrected. This nine-pointed description may be too detailed not to refer to someone specific.
                              For many reasons, including the testimony of the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus who stated that Caiaphas’ father-in-law Anas had five priestly sons (Antiquities XX, 9i; John 18:13), it is likely that Jesus had someone very specific in mind!
                              Rereading the nine points about the rich man reveals that Caiaphas as the high priest is an excellent candidate for Jesus’ parabolic “rich man” insofar as he fits the first seven criteria perfectly. But did he and his family refuse to believe even after someone was raised from the dead? Twice, actually!
                              After Jesus resurrected his friend Lazarus, the priests collaborated to kill him (John 12:10). Later, after Jesus was raised from the dead, their hard hearts remained unchanged as they persecuted Jesus’ apostles and denied Jesus’ own resurrection (Acts 4:1-3).
                              So, was the “Rich Man and Lazarus” parable based on real life events? It most certainly seems so!
                              Someone put it very well: “To read the Bible always and only in translation is like listening to Bach, always and only played on the harmonica. You certainly get the tune, but you will miss pretty much everything else”.

                              Kind regards
                              Trevor

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