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  • Character Counts

    This is a rebuilding of a thread that has been twice posted here on CARM that was let lapse. There was a second thread accompanying it that I have been informed I cannot recreate despite the fact that the antimasons had no Biblical answer to either of them and the second was based on official CARM publications.


    15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matthew 7:15-20



    This is the instruction that Christ gives us, to know teachers of false doctrine by their fruits. The antimason who claims to be Christian has a number of traits that show their character, including their variances from orthodox Biblical doctrine, their emulation of the zeal of those who were known as Pharisees, their rage and divisiveness among the body of the Church, teaching of false doctrines and bearing of false witness.


    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44



    Although I am a Freemason, I do not approach this subject as a Mason. As a Mason, it is everyone's right to believe whatever silliness and falsehoods they wish to believe. More importantly, I am an orthodox Christian with my faith's foundation on the Scriptures. As a Christian, it is my duty to point out the teachers of falsehoods who show by their fruit that they are not of the Spirit. While there are some Christians who are against Freemasonry because they trust one of the followers of antimasonry, the antimasons who claim to be Christian are nothing of the sort, at least from an orthodox Biblical standpoint. For example, let us consider Ephesians 5:11:


    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.



    A certain number of antimasons use this as a fake proof text against Freemasonry. However, consider that every single tyranny of the last century or so, whether temporal or spiritual, persecutes three groups of people: Jews, Bible following Christians and Masons. These antimasons who claim to be Christians have no problem with fellowshipping in their agreement with these fellow antimasons.

    Oh, wait the antimason who claims to be Christian will say, a stopped clock is right twice a day right, so maybe this isn't really a “fellowship”, but just happenstance. Well....that infamous stopped clock is only “right” 1 time in 43,200 chances, so the stopped clock comment actually represents an intellectual bankruptcy in an attempt to conceal the moral and Scriptural error of the antimasonic connection with the persecutors of Jews and Biblical Christians. By their stand along with these tyrants, antimasons who claim to be Christian proudly plant themselves in fellowship and agreement with these tyrants' persecutions.



    I find this example as one of the reasons that antimasons who claim to be Christian refuse to actually discuss Scriptures, because they depend on twisted interpretations that they read somewhere and lack the knowledge of Scripture to be ready to give a defense for their faith.


    The next post will go over a number of standard falsehoods spoken by antimasons who claim to be Christian that should raise a red flag to any discerning Christians that read them because they mean automatically that male bovine excrement lies straight ahead.
    An open mind is a good thing.
    Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

  • #2
    Here are a few rules to remember when reading anything written by antimasons who claim to be Christian. Several of them are directly useful as tools for discernment against all kinds of false teachings and other principles on how to evaluate statements made by groups. Discernment is critical because after a bunch of lies are spewed forth, the sneaky promoter of them will often state or imply that; “Where there is smoke, there is fire!”. True, but a Christian should use discernment to check if the smoke comes from a firestorm or a smudge pot meant to deceive the elect.


    1. A text out of context is a pretext for a proof text. Often antimasonic claims to have “proof” for something and even gives a reference, but fails to provide an actual quote, just their misinterpretation. Comparing the source to the quote almost always reveals either out of context quoting and/or alterations of the text to “jazz it up” to fit the antimasonic teachings.
    2. Use of old and out of date documents, common among antimasons who claim to be Christian, in some cases taking advantage of language shifts that have occurred in the last 150 years. This is actually a version of out of context quoting as well. For example, public Freemasonry started in the early 1700s, in England. It is a conservative group and preserves certain usages of language. A common title for various officials was (and still is) “The Worshipful....”, since the original meaning of worship was worthy of respect and it is still used to this day. However, the antimason will try to make up something that means “worship” in a paying-homage-to-Deity way, or yet another false witness.
    3. Lack of historical knowledge, which applies to 2 above in language usage, but also made up “historical” stories like why the Shriner's fez is red. (Simple, city did not exist during the Muslim conquest, but was built by Muslims.)
    4. Excessive claim of authority for documents that are not supported anywhere but in the antimason's imagination. For example, Albert Pike's flawed book Morals & Dogma was not and never has been listed as an official “bible” for Freemasonry, but antimasons must give it this spurious authority to have any leg to stand on. Morals & Dogma has not been considered an official book that all Freemasons must believe in by any group, including the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction; the small subgroup of Freemasons that it actually might apply to. In fact, to get any traction out of Morals & Dogma, all antimasons must totally ignore the Preface to the book, printed in every copy:

      [SIZE=3]The teachings of these Readings are not sacramental, so far as they go beyond the realm of Morality into those of other domains of Thought and Truth. The Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite uses the word "Dogma" in its true sense, of [/SIZE][SIZE=3]doctrine[/SIZE][SIZE=3], or [/SIZE][SIZE=3]teaching[/SIZE][SIZE=3]; and is not [/SIZE][SIZE=3]dogmatic[/SIZE][SIZE=3] in the odious sense of that term. [/SIZE][SIZE=3]Every one is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound[/SIZE][SIZE=3]. It is only required of him that he shall weigh what is taught, and give it fair hearing and unprejudiced judgment.” (bold emphasis added)[/SIZE]
    5. [SIZE=3]Quoting writings by authors who were not Freemasons at the time of writing.[/SIZE]
    6. [SIZE=3]Claiming any book on Masonry speaks for all of Freemasonry as the Bible speaks for all Christianity. This is simply a lie.[/SIZE]
    7. [SIZE=3]There are many groups of “irregular” or fake Freemasonry not acknowledged by any of the Grand Lodges acknowledged by the United Grand Lodge of England. However, since there is no copyright on the words “Masonry” and “Freemasonry”, these people can claim to be “Freemasons” just as many cultic groups who teach false doctrines claim to be Christian. Antimasons who claim to be Christian will often knowingly quote from “Masonic documents” that aren't known or recognized by any regular Grand Lodge, which means it only proves something against this (usually) defunct pseudo-Masonic group. Similarly, they will knowingly quote known frauds and forgeries as “Masonic gospel truth” about “real Freemasonry” when no regular Masons have a clue what these documents say. (NOTE: I say knowingly, because these antimasons who claim to be Christian virtually always claim to have spent vast amounts of time researching Freemasonry. If true, then they know they are quoting forged and spurious documents, making them bearers of false witness.)[/SIZE]

    8. [SIZE=3]Antimasons who say they are Christian claim authority from supposed study, sometimes adding that they are pastors, or “spirit-led” (yes, the Spirit leads, but it must be tested and if it doesn't line up with Scripture, it isn't the Spirit), the credentials of someone they “trust” as they would Scripture (IOW, the testimony refutes all other testimonies just like Scripture can), etc. [/SIZE]
    9. [SIZE=3]For reference: [/SIZE]
      [SIZE=3]Romans [SIZE=3]1[/SIZE]:[/SIZE][SIZE=3] [/SIZE]19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

      Psalms 19: “1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.”

      There is something known as “natural revelation”, where the creation gives evidence to man of the Creator. Romans 1:19-21 teaches this most clearly in Scripture. It is limited and shows no more than that all mankind has the evidence of God before them all of their life and it is by their choice that they reject Him. The Bible is “special revelation”, or the Word of God given to us by His will and for His purposes. It speaks of things not found in nature. By definition, any “holy writing” from any religion also count as a “special revelation” for followers of that religion. This difference between natural and special revelation gets conflated (in a deceptive manner) by antimasons who claim to be Christian.
    10. Luke 16:10 “He who is faithful in a very little [thing] is faithful also in much, and he who is dishonest and unjust in a very little [thing] is dishonest and unjust also in much.” (Amplified)


      I will once again be dissecting the writings of various antimasons who claim to be Christians in this thread and pointing out how they highlight the character of those who wrote them.
    An open mind is a good thing.
    Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

    Comment


    • #3
      While there is much of this post that I COULD respond to, I will not do so. My reasons? For one thing, I not only claim to be a Christian, I AM a Christian, born-again, bought and paid for by the Blood of the Lamb of God.

      Further, I am not an antimason. I am antifreemasonry, and I make no apologies for that. Besides being a former Mason, I come from a family of Freemasons and Eastern Stars. To call me antimason is ludicrous at best.

      Kamatu wants desperately to put hateful labels on people he hates, simply because they are opposed to Freemasonry. At the same time, by using the term, "antimasons", he desperately wants those who read his hate-filled ramblings to believe that we Christians who are opposed to Freemasonry hate Freemasons. We do not. Because we are Christians, we believe we are to hate the sin, love the sinner.

      Further, by his ramblings in the above post, he is desperately trying to paint all who oppose Freemasonry with the same brush. As desperate as his attempts are at doing this, it simply isn't so.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Duane Washum View Post
        While there is much of this post that I COULD respond to, I will not do so. My reasons? For one thing, I not only claim to be a Christian, I AM a Christian, born-again, bought and paid for by the Blood of the Lamb of God.
        Actual reason, you cannot. Of course, as a Christian, you would be admitting yourself unable to give a defense for the faith that is within you by your statement, but there you are.

        Further, I am not an antimason. I am antifreemasonry, and I make no apologies for that. Besides being a former Mason, I come from a family of Freemasons and Eastern Stars. To call me antimason is ludicrous at best.
        Masonry is interchangable with Freemasonry in this context. Why the hair splitting all of a sudden? It is indicative of someone trying to cover something up.

        Kamatu wants desperately to put hateful labels on people he hates, simply because they are opposed to Freemasonry. At the same time, by using the term, "antimasons", he desperately wants those who read his hate-filled ramblings to believe that we Christians who are opposed to Freemasonry hate Freemasons. We do not. Because we are Christians, we believe we are to hate the sin, love the sinner.
        No, truthful labels. How is it hate filled to simply list some of the issues that point to the lies told by anti(free)masonry types? Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free. I've never accused the anti(free)masonry types of hating individual Masons, I've simply pointed out that their claims do no match up with the facts and to believe these claims means trusting their personal authority as one would that of Scripture.

        Further, by his ramblings in the above post, he is desperately trying to paint all who oppose Freemasonry with the same brush. As desperate as his attempts are at doing this, it simply isn't so.
        Nope. Simply pointing out a list of common traits that can be found in a specific group. Not all of the group will have all of these traits, but many of them share most of them and virtually all of them count each other as fellow travelers.

        It was inspired by another list of traits found here on CARM that antimasons fit and Freemasonry most definitely does not.
        An open mind is a good thing.
        Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

        Comment


        • #5
          This is beginning to suspiciously look like you are trying to insert that Ex Masons For Jesus is a cult. That was tried once before by another Masonic zealot. I suggest you don't go there. Not a warning, just a suggestion.

          P.S. You wrote:
          Simply pointing out a list of common traits that can be found in a specific group. Not all of the group will have all of these traits, but many of them share most of them and virtually all of them count each other as fellow travelers.

          It was inspired by another list of traits found here on CARM that antimasons fit and Freemasonry most definitely does not.
          Please provide a link to the above claim you have made about a "list of traits found here on CARM. . ."
          Last edited by Duane A Washum; 10-09-14, 03:03 PM. Reason: added a PS

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Duane Washum View Post
            This is beginning to suspiciously look like you are trying to insert that Ex Masons For Jesus is a cult. That was tried once before by another Masonic zealot. I suggest you don't go there. Not a warning, just a suggestion.

            P.S. You wrote:Please provide a link to the above claim you have made about a "list of traits found here on CARM. . ."
            Actually, it was me. The thread was a companion thread to "Character Counts" and titled "The Cult of Antimasonry". It was started twice and ended up unanwerable by all available anti(free)masons who claimed to be Christian because so many of the signs were directly linked to the statements of antimasons. The reason why it was a great companion to "Character Counts", was that one showed the unfruitful works of the anti(free)masonry proponents and the other linked those behaviors to common traits by showing they were common and widespread.

            edit Grievance violation

            Anti(free)masons who claim to be Christian also commonly claim they are hot shot researchers, so why don't you look it up. Nope, I'm not going to directly link it, but it easy enough to research.

            P.S. - As a Freemason, I really don't care what your religious beliefs are. You can believe any silly little thing you want to about Masons and Freemasonry. The issue becomes one where as a Christian who used the Scriptures as my foundation of knowledge, I am going to correct the false teaching of those who twist Scripture, add works to grace and attempt to mislead the Church. Remember, it is not enough to to just not have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but to reprove them. So, if there is any zeal here, it if for Christ, not for Freemasonry, because Masonic policy is ignore those who speak lies openly about Freemasonry.
            Last edited by CARM Admin 2; 05-06-16, 07:55 PM.
            An open mind is a good thing.
            Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

            Comment


            • #7
              I asked for a link. Apparently you are unable to provide one.

              Comment


              • #8
                DBR in the lodge Debunked.

                Originally posted by Duane Washum View Post
                I asked for a link. Apparently you are unable to provide one.

                I've already told you it could be found on this website. I choose not to provide it because I do not desire to assist a certain anti(free)masonry advocate the potential of any assistance in his quest to silence all discussion that disproves his position.


                Now, we should move on to the first round of Character Counts. My favorite start the last two times was with William J. 'Bill' Schnoebelen, since he is just too funny as a poster child for the antimason who claims to be Christian. I don't even bother with anything he wrote, simply list his own claims of everything he has done.

                As I stated earlier, I'm going to start with emfj (dot) org (slash) dbr (dot) htm, a document entitled “Death, Burial & Resurrection in the Masonic Lodge”.

                I'll note that as a source, the author uses the Thorndike-Barnhart Dictionary written for the World Book Encyclopedia. I'm unable to directly check that source because I'm not going to buy one, but I'll note that both the encyclopedia is tuned more for adolescent students and the dictionary appears to be aimed more at children and teens and to help interest them. IOW, it is a bit of a specialty dictionary with a different emphasis than standard dictionaries. So, when the author gives a definition, I will cross check it with several online dictionaries, including Webster's, which is a solid standard for dictionaries.

                First, it is explained that most people are deluded and that only by following the tale laid out in this essay will the hidden and concealed truth be shown. Then we get two definitions, one for resurrection which is fairly standard since it involves a return to life and the second is baptism, which is correct in its primary but the author's secondary definition is a bit odd and not repeated in any of the online dictionaries I consulted.

                However, look very closely at this second definition of the word, from the same dictionary:
                "any experience that cleanses a person, or introduces him into a new kind of life." As you can see, the scope of baptism, particularly outside of the Christian church, has now been broadened with this second definition of the word.
                It's obvious that the author is pinning a lot on this bit by his surrounding commentary. He then goes on to show his next “dot” from the 1963 SBC BFM where a similar “new life” quote is found...but in relation to literal baptism, not the secondary definition and without showing a connection to Freemasonry.

                Then we get the definition of salvation and the following often used quote about Freemasonry:
                "Freemasonry has been well defined as, ‘A peculiar system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols’.
                followed by yet another interesting definition that doesn't appear in any online dictionary, this time for allegory
                "a long and complicated story with an underlying meaning different from the surface meaning of the story itself."
                How different from:
                1. (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) a poem, play, picture, etc, in which the apparent meaning of the characters and events is used to symbolize a deeper moral or spiritual meaning
                2. (Art Terms) a poem, play, picture, etc, in which the apparent meaning of the characters and events is used to symbolize a deeper moral or spiritual meaning
                3. (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) the technique or genre that this represents
                4. (Art Terms) the technique or genre that this represents
                5. (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) use of such symbolism to illustrate truth or a moral
                6. (Art Terms) use of such symbolism to illustrate truth or a moral
                7. anything used as a symbol or emblem
                Quite a bit less sinister sounding anyway.


                Then we get an overview of Masonic degrees from some source I'm not familiar with until we get to the moment of truth for the author in which he attempts to link up all these various stray dots he claims are there:
                (Please note a similarity at this point, between Christian baptism, and what I refer to as Masonic baptism: I have already quoted from the Southern Baptist statement on baptism that baptism "…, is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership…" In a Masonic lodge room, the Worshipful Master informs the candidate that what he is about to endure is prerequisite to his becoming a Master Mason.)
                Okay, the author self-defines in advance that this is a “Masonic baptism”, then tries to use something from the SBC to make the meaning of both events the same in terms of membership. Huh? What relationship does a SBC document using the literal definition, the author's allegorical definition and the author's conclusion have to do with each other....except the author wants to make his data fit his conclusion.
                Besides which, Masonic membership in good standing requires paying your dues, not being in some made up "baptism". After all, a very common method of joining Masonry these days are one day classes where one of the many candidates goes through a degree while the rest watch and Oopise!, they "miss" their "baptism".


                Then there is a return to the author's description of the degrees and which includes the statement that the entire purpose of recovery of the body is to rebury it, but somehow, based on a statement out of the Nevada ritual, pointing out that despite the lesson being over, the ritual doesn't include an actual burial (oh how suspicious) and something from the Grand Lodge of Nevada that no Mason has to accept as authoritative like Scriptures, it is actually a “resurrection”. Dead body to new grave doesn't sound like any new life to me in there.


                Then we are treated to that rather unique definition of allegory instead of a more standard one to “prove” that this is indeed some kind of secret “baptism” & “resurrection”, followed by a plethora of quotes that again “prove” this is all true. (Including appeals to dated materials as I noted in the first posts as a red flag that false witness is incoming.) The author notes that there is a “lockstep response” that all of these writings are the personal opinion of the writer (which is true).


                Is it easier to believe that thousands and thousands and millions of Freemasons are truthfully giving the correct response (that is actually written in a number of these sources), or that all these thousands and millions of Freemasons have managed to successfully conceal a vast conspiracy for at least the last three centuries (and at least two or more centuries longer) by lying in this “lockstep response”?


                Then the author claims that no fraternity can have anything to do with philosophy, especially of the religious type. However in the history of fraternities, that is exactly part of what fraternal organizations did, going back to the trade guilds of the Middle Ages. It is supposedly a “quantum leap”, when in fact it is entirely normal, especially given the age of Freemasonry. The only “quantum leap” in sight here is how the author claims to have special knowledge that goes against the testimony of thousands and millions of men of good report.


                Then finally, we get a bit of Scripture from this antimason who claims to be Christian. Jesus answered him, ‘I have spoken openly to the world; I always taught in synagogues, and in the temple where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret’." (John 18:20)


                Remember, a text without a context is a pretext for a proof text. Context: Jesus being illegally tried (under Jewish law) by Annas and Caiaphas the high priest. The question being asked was: The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine. John 18:19 Which means verse 20 was a response a question about the doctrine Christ was teaching, not about (as the author seeks to imply falsely) everything that Jesus did was always in public like some kind of hyper-FaceBooker/Tweeter who gives a minute by minute account of everything they do in life.


                Christ did speak in private and taught things in private as can be seen twice in Matthew 13: 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. ….36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. There are plenty of similar examples in Scripture. Note that none of these contradict the doctrines that Christ taught openly and somehow make John 18:20 false, they simply show that the author (by trying to imply that everything Jesus taught or said was done in public where third party witnesses were available) twists Scriptures in his attempt to “prove” his thesis.


                Then we get some more quotes from different sources that are not authoritative to individual Freemasons as Scriptures are to an orthodox Christian. In fact, amusingly enough the author scores an own goal in discussing one book when he stated the following:
                "Written as a commission from the Grand Lodge of Iowa, and approved by that Grand body, a copy of this book is to be presented to every man upon whom the degree of Master Mason is conferred within this Grand Jurisdiction."
                Folks, that’s as official as it gets.
                One regular Grand Lodge out of over 150 regular Grand Lodges in the world and if one contacted that Grand Lodge, the “lock-step” would again state the truth that no man speaks for all of Freemasonry. Which means “as official as it gets” = “no proof for the anti(free)masonry author here”, yet again.


                Then the author notes, yet again, this little speed bump he keeps hitting:
                If it is the intent of the Craft, by its various monitors, to make the truth unmistakable, the Craft has failed miserably in its endeavors. To this day, virtually every single Mason I have ever debated this matter with, either refuses to admit the truth, thereby deliberately lying in a feeble attempt to defend the honor of the lodge - there’s an irony for you - or is so totally ignorant of the facts that he doesn’t know the truth himself. In either case, the circumstances are deplorable and totally devoid of principals and honor.. Because either the member is lying or the lodge is deliberately lying to the member and he is nothing more than an unknowing pawn.
                Bold emphasis added.
                The bold points out yet another own goal by the author that notes that this “masonic truth” he keeps trying to fabricate cannot be found in the Grand Lodge sources he is quoting from. It also notes again that Masons always point out that all of these sources (that the anti(free)masonry movement that claims to be Christian must so desperately have be authoritative in a Scriptural sense to have a case for their teachings) are not authoritative at all, nor binding on any individual Freemason. Which follows with a fallacy of the excluded middle or false dilemma. Which means the author only gives two of the possible alternatives (“Have you stopped beating your wife yet?”) when there actually exists a simpler one that also happens to be more logically valid. Namely, that these Masons simply speak truthfully.


                IOW, yet another overreach by an anti(free)masonry author who claims to be Christian, but still finds himself stuck in the position of being a false witness and attempting to cause divisiveness in the Church teaching false doctrines. The recurrent refusal to admit the logical fallacy and demand a "have you stopped beating your wife?", choice to attempt to force such an obvious conclusion condemns the intellectual integrity of the author. Since this author also happens to be a Past Master, this is not any kind of honest mistake, but deliberate. It also shows up, yet again, another trait for the list.

                Cognitive Dissonance
                Avoidance of critical thinking and/or maintaining logically impossible beliefs and/or beliefs that are inconsistent with other beliefs held by the group.
                Avoidance of and/or denial of any facts that might contradict the group's belief system.
                An open mind is a good thing.
                Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

                Comment


                • #9
                  If you want to move on without providing the link for what you have claimed is on this site, I'm not too sure that's going to happen.

                  I will continue to request that link as long as you continue to refuse the request.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Meet Bill, the Uber-Anti...well, pretty much everything

                    Originally posted by Duane Washum View Post
                    If you want to move on without providing the link for what you have claimed is on this site, I'm not too sure that's going to happen.

                    I will continue to request that link as long as you continue to refuse the request.
                    Front page of CARM, you already figured out where it is from, so easy to find. edit personal comments linked through the front page of this website, let's get back on the business of showing what the character and fruits of antimasons who claim to be Christian.

                    ---------------------
                    Meet Bill, the Uber-Anti...well, pretty much everything



                    I like Mr. Bill. Once you look at his bio, debunking his actual works just seems like a waste of time, but this is one of the shining lights and glorious hopes of the anti(free)masonry group that claims to be Christians. This is what anti(free)masons who claim to be Christian really are.


                    William J. 'Bill' Schnoebelen has been many things in his life. I'm even going to skip the John Todd connections except to dismiss them as coincidences with John Todd as the guru and leader of the “everything Is Satanic, especially the Freemasons” teachers of false doctrine who claim to be Christian and Bill Schnoebelen as one of his disciples. Bill himself has had a “busy life” that is also quite confusing. He claims to have been:


                    • a Wiccan
                    • a "high Druidic" priest
                    • a voodoo high pries
                    • an Ordo Templi Orientis initiate (2nd degree)
                    • a channeler
                    • a Masters degree in Theological Studies from a Catholic seminary
                    • a Satanist
                    • a member of the Illuminati
                    • a Mormon
                    • a Catholic priest
                    • a 90th Degree Freemason
                    • a 9th Degree Rosicrucian
                    • a Knight Templar
                    • a Gnostic bishop
                    • a spiritualist priest
                    • a vampire
                    • a member of Elizabeth Clare Prophet's Church Universal and Triumphant
                    • a Black Ops expert
                    • a nuclear/biological warfare expert
                    • a fundamentalist Christian/ordained minister
                    • a naturopathic physician
                    • a government health conspiracy expert


                    No, I'm going to skip the majority of this except to note that he managed to do almost all of this (except for the last several) between 1968 and 1984, or in 15 years. Note that he is never a “little fellow”, but always promoted up to the “big league”. I'm also leaving off this current list Mr. Bill's “achievements” his evidently now defunct UFO ministry where he reported seeing UFOs almost daily and had worked with hundreds of UFO abductees, including Christians...
                    Let me simply point out that his “Masonic” credentials include spurious fake organizations (hence the 2d degree OTO & 90th(!) degree fake masonry), not recognized regular Masonic groups. He also follows, like most anti(free)masonry nuts, the Taxil hoaxes which includes the firm belief that Pike's Morals & Dogma simply must be some kind of “Masonic Scripture”, which has been repeatedly proven (unless one resorts to tinfoil hat conspiracy theories) to be false.
                    The best part about the big list of what Mr. Bill hath done so that his homepage can be covered with book you can buy from him to get the “real deal” on whatever subject it is you are interested in.
                    Note that Mr. Bill has been endorsed by several prominent (or at least noisy) anti(free)masonry types who claim to be Christian, among them, Mr. Ed Decker, the originator of the first EMFJ franchise, which started out against Mormonism and then added Masonry and later passed that baton down to the second EMFJ (M for Masonry this time) by endorsing it. Yes, Mr. Decker's works will be exposed to view in this thread also.
                    By accepting Mr. Bill, proponents of anti(free)masonry who claim to be Christian are far from reproving the unfruitful works of darkness, but actually approving them. Which makes these anti(free)masons who claim to be Christian what?
                    Last edited by CARM Admin 2; 10-17-14, 04:58 PM. Reason: edit/violation
                    An open mind is a good thing.
                    Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hank Tries His Hand & Fails

                      The beat goes on, a little item that can be found at equip (dot) org (slash) perspectives (slash) freemasonry-is-freemasonry-occultic (slash). It is from Hank Hanegraaff speaking officially from his position as the head of CRI ministry. So, here we go again with the original being in bold:

                      IS MASONRY OCCULTIC?
                      Mysterious symbols. Secret rites. Hidden teachings. Is this an accurate portrayal of what Freemasonry is all about? Is Masonry really occultic?

                      With close to 34,000 lodges around the globe and a membership numbering upwards of 6 million, it is obvious why the Encyclopedia Britannica would dub Freemasonry as the largest world-wide secret society. But just because something is secret does not necessarily mean that it’s occultic. In fact, the majority of Freemasons contend that their organization has no occultic elements whatsoever. However, the deeper we dig into the recesses of Masonic teaching, the more reprehensible the picture becomes.
                      Christian author John Weldon lists five ways in which Freemasonry fosters occultic involvement among its members: First, Freemasonry supports the now-popular New Age dictum that man houses within himself unlimited power that can be unlocked using specific procedures. Second, Freemasonry espouses a philosophy and a system of symbols which bear a striking resemblance to many of the occultic arts — for example kabbalism, Rosicrucianism, and hermetic philosophy. Third, Freemasonry encourages its members to discover the deeper significance (or “esoteric truths”) lying beneath its ceremonies and symbols. Fourth, Freemasonry promotes the development of altered states of consciousness, an exercise rooted in mysticism. Finally, a number of Masons regard their organization as the vehicle that will lead the world into an age of occultic enlightenment.
                      “Why are so many Masons unaware of this side of Freemasonry?,” one may well ask. The reason is that a large portion of Masons seldom strive to advance beyond the initial ranks or degrees offered within their organization. But as one progresses to higher degrees, more and more details about the underlying foundations of Masonic ideology are gradually revealed, including its occultic dimensions. It is therefore imperative that we warn others about the dangers brewing beneath the surface of the Masonic Lodge.
                      On Masonry and the occult, that’s the CRI Perspective. I’m Hank Hanegraaff.


                      Yet more chicken puckey. Same crappy sources that promote the usual lies, but let’s check on Hank’s five points:
                      1) Really, news to me, but it is interesting how antimasons have so penetrated the “secrets” of Freemasonry that they can always manage to teach something new to Masons about Masonry.
                      2) Striking or vague? Yes, some symbols are common, but then the cross itself has some pagan interpretations and this says what about the Christian interpretation?
                      3) News to me, as usual. This one can be considered as having a grain of truth though. There is some urging to think on the meaning of certain symbols, but the meanings are explained, not the attempted New Age link (it was Satanic in earlier decades). For example, the compasses (of Square & Compasses fame) are a symbol to remind Masons to circumscribe their actions and keep their passions within due bounds. Definitely not New Age meditations for esoteric meaning stuff.
                      4) News to me, really never heard of this.
                      5) Okay, some “number of Masons” believe this. Since all the secrets are open to the dedicated antimason (otherwise they couldn’t make their pronouncements with any authority), what number? Can it be stated as a percentage or raw number? Can we get an estimate closer than one to some millions? I doubt it, I'm familiar with this kind of argument, it comes from fundy athiests and other lightweights.


                      Of course, the usual ending of how sincere, devoted Christians, even theologians, ministers and Christian apologists, men of intellectual attainment and spiritual discernment stay members of Freemasonry. How can this be? AHA! They are too stupid and/or ignorant to notice this “problem” with Masonry, even though they are objectively far better qualified than the antiMason is to discern these issues. Oh yeah, if the Mason doesn’t accept this without question, then he just hasn’t “gone far enough” in the degree system. That’s it, case closed. So my question would be: Is it any wonder that the Church today finds itself confused, disoriented and riddled with heresy and heretical teachings?
                      An open mind is a good thing.
                      Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Misc Anti(free)mason Generic Errors

                        This appears to have been lifted from some Presbyterian subgroup report in 1942, but the antimasonic website I originally got it from had no citation for where it came from. Points from the document are made in bold. These items are so basic to the deception practiced by anti(free)masonry that claims to be Christian, if I have to restart this thread again, I'll put this up at the top as opening statements. These same false assumptions get floated all the time on this forum and elsewhere about the web.

                        Something for all readers to note carefully, nobody subscribing to the anti(free)masonry beliefs who claims to be Christian will directly and clearly answer any of the questions asked here. Extremely common response.


                        Some opening points:
                        1) Even though well written, this document fails utterly to consider the basic fact that what any Mason says about Masonry is simply that Mason’s opinion when he writes in areas outside of the landmarks and basics of Freemasonry. This is most especially true when speaking of "mystical" areas.

                        2) As a Mason, I find it sad that despite the claims of writers such as these to be godly and impartial, I can usually immediately or with a trivial amount of research spot omissions and glossing over of portions of rituals and Masonic books that make points like these obviously self-refuting. It gives the appearance that the writers are ignorant at best and liars at worst.
                        3) The scholarship of the antimason rivals the scholarship of pop antiChristian writers. If one agrees with the level of scholarship in The Da Vinci Code, then this is no problem. Change contexts and redefining terms into something other than their original meaning is not honest scholarship.


                        Masonry also lays claim to universalism, but its universalism differs radically from that of Christianity in that it denies Christian particularism and exclusivism.

                        No, it does not deny it, it simply does not address it. Masonry acknowledges the Creator (“Grand/Great Architect of the Universe” or GAOTU) as He reveals Himself in nature. From the Christian perspective this would be a preChristian belief not something in “competition”. It is simply why every man is not excused because creation itself declares the Creator.


                        Christianity claims to have the only true book, the Bible. Masonry places this book on a par with the sacred books of other religions.

                        Correct since Masonry does not elevate itself to make those kinds of distinctions since it is not a religion in and of itself. This is a category error since Freemasonry specifically does NOT choose to operate at that level organizationally, but leaves such determinations to the individual Mason.


                        Christianity lays claim to the only true God, the God of the Bible, and denounces all other Gods as idols. Masonry recognizes the Gods of all religions.

                        No, it only recognizes the Creator and leaves the rest of the “details” to the individual Mason. Again, this goes beyond the scope of Freemasonry to judge.
                        Christianity describes God as the Father of Jesus Christ and of those who through faith in Him have received the right to be called the sons of God. The God of Masonry is the universal father of all mankind.
                        As Christ, the last Adam, died for all men (although not all will receive His sacrifice), so all men are descended from the first Adam and are made in the image of God. To deny this would be to repeat the error of Cain when he asked if he was his brother’s keeper. I addressed the other issue with this kind of comment at kamatu (dot) blogspot (dot) com (slash) 2008 (slash) 12 (slash) discernment-grammar-vocabulary-and (dot) html. Simply put, God is my Father and all Christians are to be my brothers, but what do I call the man who provided the genetic material to make me? (IOW, "fathered" me.) What do I call fellow veterans from the military? What do I call my male siblings? Am I ****** to hell and a questionable Christian because I call my male siblings "brother" and the man responsible for half of my DNA "father"?



                        Christianity holds that only the worship of the God who has revealed Himself in Holy Scripture is true worship. Masonry honors as true worship the worship of numerous other deities.

                        Again confusion about where Freemasonry draws the line. Masonry, as an organization, does not make this distinction, but leaves it to the individual Mason. It seems a definition error also. Any man can truly worship anything, but as to whether or not it is valid or simply praying to the dark is beyond the scope of what Freemasonry judges.


                        Christianity recognizes but one Saviour, Jesus Christ, the only Mediator between God and man. Masonry recognizes many saviours.

                        No. Same error again between organizational position and individual position.


                        Christianity acknowledges but one way of salvation, that of grace through faith. Masonry rejects this way and substitutes for it salvation by works and character.

                        No, Freemasonry has no plan of salvation, that is left to the individual Mason’s religion to outline. I’m mildly surprised by this continual “missing” of the point of James’ discussion of faith and works. Faith saves, but faith without works is empty. You do not do works to be saved (as a Christian), but a proof of your salvation is your works or fruits.


                        Christianity teaches the brotherhood of those who believe in Christ, the communion of saints, the church universal, the one body of Christ. Masonry teaches the brotherhood of Masons and the universal brotherhood of man.

                        Same error. Big difference between brotherhood in the body of Christ and the brotherhood of all humanity made in the image of God.


                        Christianity glories in being the one truly universal religion. Masonry would rob Christianity of this glory and appropriate it to itself.

                        No. Masonry stops at general revelation (that the creation reveals a Creator) and does not get into special revelation such as given in the Bible (or any other writings). This also appears to be forcing a particular definition on the phrase "universal religion", mainly for effect. Last I heard, Christianity considers itself to be the one true religion, but not to be the universal one. After all, I can point out a few people who might just disagree on that. They happen to not be Christians.
                        Christianity maintains that it is the only true religion. Masonry denies this claim and boasts of being Religion itself.
                        Freemasonry’s level of religion, including not being a religion, can be considered the one universal one knowable to all men regardless of knowledge of any other special revelation (see Romans 1:20). The most base pagan has access to this level of religious knowledge as well as the most holy Christian saint. What Christianity has is the special revelation given us in the Scriptures. Masonry does not judge that level.


                        What gets me, I have pointed out a number of things that appear to be either ignorance or lies in these points. So, if you are trying to make a case to me and the first things I read are false, what does that say about the rest of your "case"?
                        An open mind is a good thing.
                        Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          How Do You Fight the Lies...

                          ...from those who claim to be Christian? As can be noted in the brief study I did on bearing false witness, breaking this particular commandment is linked to a number of other problems. It looks like this can be said of other commandments also, but when we look at the fruits of those who claim to be Christian (our only standard to discern a true Brother in Christ), if this one pops up, then I've seen that the others will follow. After all, I could make the case for the key commandment being the first one, but how can I tell if someone has some other god before God? Only by their fruits.

                          I was reading some of John Piper's work after seeing a missions video on youtube that was linked to his quote about missions: "Go, Send or Disobey." While exploring his website, I did what I do from time to time when I find a new preacher, I searched for "Freemasonry" and "Masonry". There was only one hit on the entire site which from my research indicates there is probably something from someone else. I've found that solid, orthodox, reformed preachers tend to have nothing or one item from someone else. For some reason, Freemasonry isn't on their radar screens.

                          So we find here. My search only found one document (desiringgod (dot) org (slash) articles (slash) thoughts-from-lausanne-ii-in-manila) from July 21, 1989(!) with the following quote:
                          33. Ron Carlson, an expert in cults, ate lunch with me and others one day and spoke of the amazing inroads of the Masonic Lodge in America. He has made a tape exposing the cultic, Eastern, counter-Christian elements of the Lodge. Fifteen thousand men have left the Lodge because of this tape. Ron has been threatened. He said 40 percent of Southern Baptist pastors belong to the Lodge. The whole elder board at a well-known Twin Cities Presbyterian church belonged to the Masons at one time recently. When you join you must take an oath that you will slit your throat before revealing the secrets of the Lodge. The IRS investigated recently and discovered that none of the money raised by the circuses went for the children’s hospitals. The red Fez with the Islamic sword and crescent is based on the bloody slaughter of 10,000 Christians by Muslims in the city of Fez. Norman Vincent Peale, who is high up in the Masonic order, told Ron that Masonry is the most important thing in his life. One board chairman in the Twin Cities who railed at Ron answered his question of why he should be accepted into heaven by saying, “I guess I’ll say I was a good Mason.” How vigilant we must be about the subtlety of sin and error.
                          So, what do we really have here?
                          1. The source is "Ron Carlson, an expert in cults."Ok, the first line would be that since Freemasonry isn't a cult, he doesn't know jack about it. Unfortunately, as we will see, it may sound like a snippy joke, but it is actually the just the simple truth, as will be shown later when Mr. Carlson's open and public dishonesty (i.e. - character) will be discussed.
                          2. Next we have "amazing inroads of the Masonic Lodge in America". Uh, like every single other secular fraternal organization in America, we have a steadily declining membership. Even when I've seen a local "boom" in new members, it is merely a slowing of the rate of decrease.
                          3. Next, "He (Carlson) has made a tape exposing...". I've heard recordings of Mr. Carlson's presentations at conferences. He is called on to speak against Freemasonry. Within a few minutes, despite this talk supposedly being the "real deal" about Masonry, Mr. Carlson will be telling people about "resources" available for sale on the back table. I gues this would qualify this tape as being the "real real deal".
                          4. "cultic": Not by any definition either ancient or modern. The only basis for this remains the constant stretch by these antimasons who claim to be Christians that Freemasonry is a religion. This despite the massive witness of centuries of Masons that Masonry is NOT a religion. Oh, we are all just Satanists anyway, right?
                          5. "Eastern": Oh wow. Care to comment on the Oriental nature of the people that produced the Bible? Now, if this is a "modern" pop definition of Eastern (i.e. slant eyed folks), then it is a laugh. I don't think you will find the corporate group state mentality in Freemasonry that you will find there, or even in the Bible where one Man was chosen to die for the good of the state.
                          6. "counter-Christian": How is it "counter"? I know of nothing in Masonry that is against ("counter") Christianity. Unless it is the fact that this secular fraternity chooses not to whole-heartedly endorse Christianity as the one, true faith. Of course, then it wouldn't be secular, would it? It wouldn't be Freemasonry either.
                          7. "15,000 men have left the Lodge because of this tape". Really? Does Mr. Carlson have this in writing? I doubt it. Of course, having worked the phones to call older brothers who are about to lose their membership for not paying their dues (wait, isn't this a cult, you know, HARD to get out of?), I'm quite aware of one problem among my older Masonic brethren, especially if they are also my Christian brethren. When I call and let them know that if they are in distress economically that we can provide for them, I find them politely thanking me and requesting that we don't. Why? Is this the Great Carlson AntiMasonic Tape at work!?! Maybe. The reason these older Christian and Masonic brothers are letting their dues lapse is that they are old, no longer active and are tired of being harassed by their kids and preachers who are listening to Mr. Carlson's or Mr. Ankerberg's lies. Remember what I said about bearing false witness leading to other sins? Here, the idea of honoring they father and mother or respect for the elder ones in the church go >poof!<
                          8. "Ron had been threatened." By who? The last time you had a case of that was the Morgan Affair in the early 1800s. Oh wait, bearing false witness and dividing the church? Scripture has somewhat to say about that, but I don't think it is a mere threat.
                          9. "40% of SB preachers/Presbyterian Church". The first is a known lie, pushed by Dr. Holly among all his other ones. As for the other, if true, so what?
                          10. "take an oath to slit your throat". Old lie, I did not do so, have not heard of anyone else doing so and after sitting in many jurisdictions both in the USA and overseas for degrees, I've not observed any oath calling for slitting your own throat.
                          11. IRS and the Shrine. I'm not aware of anything back then, but I am aware, even though I'm no longer a Shriner, that an internal investigation is ongoing into some abuses by members of a subgroup of Shriners. If this is true (and it looks like it is), then the Shriners involved will probably end up no longer Masons as well as no longer Shriners.
                          12. The Red Fez lie: I'll only cover the first fact on this one. The city of Fez was founded by the Muslim sultan who conquered the area from pagans (although there may have been some Christians there) and the hat known as the "fez" for the city didn't exist until the next sultan built up the city of Fez to attract more commerce to it. Oops! BTW, the currently fashionable number and the one I've always heard was 50,000 Christians, not the mere 10,000 of Mr. Carlson's myth.
                          13. Norman Vincent Peale: Oh, this is a personal testimony (how about two or three witnesses?) by Mr. Carlson.
                          14. "I was a good Mason." See #13 above.
                          15. "How vigilant we must be about the subtlety of sin and error." Amen Brother Piper, Amen. I suggest you start with Mr. Carlson. Over half of the points above are lies, the rest appear to have no evidence except for Mr. Carlson's personal testimony and Mr. Carlson appears to use his conference appearances as live infomercials for his products. I find his fruit to be a bit dubious.

                          Fortunately, Mr. Piper most definitely appears to be only guilty of trusting someone who is supposed to be of good report.
                          An open mind is a good thing.
                          Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            John MacArthur preaches a false sermon, Part 1

                            John MacArthur has tossed his hat into the ring at gty (dot) org (slash) resources (slash) sermons (slash) 2006 (slash) True-Worship-Part-3?q=masonry; and as we will see, he will fair no better than any of the others. I actually had thought better of him, but unfortunately, from the format of some of his quotes and the sources of them I found online, he may be too trusting and have been deceived by some of the antimasonic charlatans out there.

                            The Iowa Quarterly Bulletin, way back in April of 1917, says this (and this is their own publication), quote: "Masonry is a Divinely appointed institution, designed to draw men nearer to God, to give them a clearer conception of their proper relationship to God as their Heavenly Father, to men as their brethren and the ultimate destiny of the human soul," end quote.


                            Now that is a religion. Anything that says it's a divinely appointed institution, designed to draw men nearer to God, to give them a clear conception of their proper relationship to God, to men and the ultimate destiny of their human soul—that's a religion. Masonry is a religion even though they don't want to admit it.


                            Oh well, I guess if somebody said it somewhere, then it must be so. So, I'm sure that John MacArthur is going to happily join in Christian brotherhood with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses? How about Jim Jones? Maybe David Duke? They all claim to be Christians and if they wrote down anything somewhere, then it just must be true for all Christians, right?. Sorry, I'm not going to drink that koolaid.

                            I'm not going to go any further with this quote, but there are several extremely pertinent questions to be asked about the context of this source in any scholarly discussion which John MacArthur fails to bring up, including actually citing page numbers for his quotes from M&D. As we will see, there is a good reason for this if one is being deceptive.


                            Albert Pike, who has been called by fellow Masons one of the most distinguished Masons the Western World has ever produced, has written one of their very important books called Morals and Dogmas. It's so important that it appears in their edition of the Bible. They have their own Bible known as the Hertel's Bible. And this is what he has written: "Masonry reverences all the great reformers. It sees in Moses, the Lawgiver of the Jews, in Confucius and Zoraster, in Jesus of Nazareth, and in the Arabian Iconoclast, great teachers of morality, and eminent reformers, if no more, and allows every brother of the Order to assign to each such higher and even Divine Character as his Creed and Truth require. We do not undervalue the importance of any Truth. We utter no word that can be deemed irreverent by anyone of any faith. We do not tell the Moslem that it is only important for him to believe that there is but one God, and wholly unessential whether Mahomet was His prophet. We do not tell the Hebrew that the Messiah whom he expects was born in Bethlehem nearly two thousand years ago; and he is a heretic because he will not so believe. And as little do we tell the sincere Christian that Jesus of Nazareth was but a man like us, or His history but the unreal revival of an older legend. To do either is beyond our jurisdiction. Masonry, of no one age, belongs to all time; of no one religion, it finds its great truths in all. To every Mason, there is a God; One Supreme, Infinite in Goodness, Wisdom, Foresight, Justice, and Benevolence; Creator, Disposer, and Preserver of all things. How, or by what intermediates He creates and acts, and in what way He unfolds and manifests Himself, Masonry leaves to creeds and religions to inquire," end quote.
                            Uh oh. There is something seriously wrong here. Several things in fact, so this one solid paragraph needs to be cut up to be addressed properly, but I wanted to show that this was one intact statement in MacArthur's lesson. I will point out here, that John MacArthur is using Pike without addressing the following sentence in the preface to Morals & Dogma (M&D): “Every one is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound.

                            FYI, failure to deal with the preface of M&D is an immediate red flag to the discerning that you'd better put your hip waders on because it is going to get deep.


                            Albert Pike, who has been called by fellow Masons one of the most distinguished Masons the Western World has ever produced, has written one of their very important books called Morals and Dogmas. It's so important that it appears in their edition of the Bible. They have their own Bible known as the Hertel's Bible
                            .

                            I must assume on such skimpy information that this refers to the John A. Hertel publishing company who published a number of Bibles and religious books. It was bought out in 1948 by Devore and Sons, Inc. and produces a number of “heirloom” style Bibles for several different fraternal groups, unions and family Bibles. I happen to own both of their current products, which have been published in the same format for decades. They merely include some Masonic history and other trivia in the same binding with a standard KJV of the Bible. The text of the actual Scriptures varies not one jot or tittle from any other KJV Bible of the same type. M&D is not included as implied by Mr. MacArthur in the version of the "Hertel" Bible I have access to and the quotations that appear linked to the "Hertel" Bible are citations from M&D, which make them fall under the preface cited above in any case. John MacArthur implies here by context that this special Bible is somehow different from an orthodox Christian Bible. I know I immediately thought of the JW version which differs substantially from an orthodox Christian Bible. This is deception by omission or in plain speaking, a lie.Breaking it down:
                            And this is what he has written: "Masonry reverences all the great reformers. It sees in Moses, the Lawgiver of the Jews, in Confucius and Zoraster, in Jesus of Nazareth, and in the Arabian Iconoclast, great teachers of morality, and eminent reformers, if no more, and allows every brother of the Order to assign to each such higher and even Divine Character as his Creed and Truth require. (M&D pg 525)

                            We do not undervalue the importance of any Truth. We utter no word that can be deemed irreverent by anyone of any faith. We do not tell the Moslem that it is only important for him to believe that there is but one God, and wholly unessential whether Mahomet was His prophet. We do not tell the Hebrew that the Messiah whom he expects was born in Bethlehem nearly two thousand years ago; and he is a heretic because he will not so believe. And as little do we tell the sincere Christian that Jesus of Nazareth was but a man like us, or His history but the unreal revival of an older legend. To do either is beyond our jurisdiction. Masonry, of no one age, belongs to all time; of no one religion, it finds its great truths in all. To every Mason, there is a God; One Supreme, Infinite in Goodness, Wisdom, Foresight, Justice, and Benevolence; Creator, Disposer, and Preserver of all things. How, or by what intermediates He creates and acts, and in what way He unfolds and manifests Himself, Masonry leaves to creeds and religions to inquire," end quote.
                            (M&D pg 524)

                            I will note that there are some reasonable variation with the original text for clarity, for example, the first word in the first part is “It”, but that refers to Masonry, so the change to “Masonry” from “It” is reasonable.

                            However, then John MacArthur pulls a very strange thing. He runs two paragraphs together, normally not unreasonable for this purpose, but he puts the one on page 525 first and then appends the one on page 524 directly like it is one passage and skips all four of the intervening paragraphs. Why? It appears to be deceptive, especially without citations.

                            I underlined a few sentences to point out something Pike wrote in these two paragraphs and in the four intervening ones all repeating something Freemasons have been pointing out for centuries: that since it is not a religion (at least as antimasons who claim to be Christian must have it be to have any case at all) that claims any special revelation, it does not judge between special revelations as an organization, but allows each individual to follow his own conscience. You know, that whole freedom of religion thing.

                            In other words, they say they believe in God but you can decide who He is, what He wants, and how to get to Him.


                            And this is different from any other secular organization how?

                            So, who do we ask? John MacArthur? The Pope? Sanhedrin? The local Wiccans? Secular humanists? Communists? The next panhandler we meet? Who tells us these things? Who makes us believe them? Who decided for John MacArthur? I've found my answers in the Scriptures and by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but each individual has the free will to choose their own wayand Freemasonry, as an organization, does not claim any special knowledge or revelation, but leaves it up to each individual Mason to decide.

                            And then they claim all these secret words and they are told that when they come into Masonry they're not allowed to speak certain words. And if you've known a Mason you may have known the fact that he would not reveal those words but I would like to reveal them this morning.
                            Oh gee, we took an obligation before God not to reveal them and since we aren't Jews with a Temple and under the Law, we cannot use the methods of the Law to lose that obligation...at least if you are an orthodox Christian and not some Judaizer trying to mix Law with Grace. So, I guess John MacArthur is inciting to sin, because to stand foresworn in such a case is taking the Name of the Lord in vain, at least for a Christian. So, Freemasons are “guilty” because they won't sin by breaking their obligation taken to God. Again, deception by omission, or a lie.
                            An open mind is a good thing.
                            Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              John MacArthur preaches a false sermon, Part 2

                              I'm going to skip over the discussion of the various words, not only because I'm going to honor my obligation taken before God, but it is some of the same old regurgitated stuff that antimasons who claim to be Christian have been peddling forever, also, there is something very disturbing in the next quote from M&D.

                              Pike in his Morals and Dogmas further says, "To achieve salvation the Mason must first attain a solid conviction founded upon reason, that he has within himself a spiritual nature, a soul that is not to die when the body is dissolved, but is to continue to exist and advance toward perfection through all the ages of eternity, and to see more and more clearly, as it draws nearer unto God, the light of the Divine Presence," end quote.
                              (M&D pg 855)

                              This one is frightening. It also accounts for my belief that John MacArthur labors under a deceptive influence, mainly because of the sources of this modified quote from Pike. Notice that above, “Masonry” replaced “It” in a quote, which was legit and reasonable because the “It” in question was Masonry. In this quote, “it” has been replaced by “salvation”. Ok, fine, except in this case, the subject is NOT SALVATION!!!!

                              This is an outright lie preached by John MacArthur. Here is the preceding paragraph from M&D (pg 854-5) for context (emphasis in original): "Freemasonry is the subjugation of the Human that is in man by the Divine; the Conquest of the Appetites and Passions by the Moral Sense and the Reason; a continual effort, struggle, and warfare of the Spiritual against the Material and the Sensual. That victory, when it has been achieved and secured, and the conqueror my rest upon his shield and wear the well-earned laurels, is the true Holy Empire."

                              I'm not going to dissect that passage or its further context in philosophical terms, because that is not the purpose of this forum and I have read the preface to M&D, however it is not teaching salvation in any terms I'd acknowledge as a basis for discussion. It might fit into Proverbs 1:7 where “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge...”, but that is only the beginning, not the end of salvation, but the false substitution of "salvation" for "it" in Mr. MacArthur's sermon constitutes a serious deception.

                              And then Pike says: "At the Masonic altar, the Christian, the Hebrew, the Moslem, the Brahmin, and the followers of Confucius and Zoroaster, can assemble as brethren and unite in prayer to the one God.
                              (M&D, pg 226) The chaplain of the Masonic Lodge who prays as the voice of the lodge, does not pray in the name of the Carpenter of Nazareth or the name of Jehovah or the name of Allah. He prays to the Grand Artificer or the Great Architect of the Universe. Under that title men of all faiths may find each other his own deity. Failure to mention any deity by name is not denial but merely the practice of a gracious courtesy, so that each man for whom prayer is offered can hear the name of his own deity in the all inclusive title of Great Architect," end quote. (STB 8-58)

                              I'm trying something different here. The above is one quote by John MacArthur, supposedly by Pike from M&D. However, such is not the case and another lie is exposed. The first part as far as I can find by searching online is the partial opening clause of a sentence that begins: “Masonry, around whose altars the Christian, ...” instead of “At the Masonic altar,”. Of course, this alteration in the actual text makes it a complete sentence for MacArthur to segue into his next sentence, supposedly from the same author, the same book and the same thought, but it was not.

                              It comes from a Short Talk Bulletin from August 1958 titled “Some Misconceptions about Freemasonry” (LOL!) and since Pike was dead decades before 1958, another author. So John MacArthur is caught out in a lie again.

                              I underlined a common Masonic point that all antimasons who claim to be Christian must avoid at all costs, that NO deities are mentioned by name as deities. Why? Simply because Freemasonry does not judge between special revelations, which means it cannot confirm nor deny any of them as the one, true, living God.

                              Well, I think you understand, that's enough…that's enough, frankly, to sicken anyone because that's a Satanic false religion. It says, “Yes, we believe in the true God,” but it reduces Him to a wrong form. It worships Him in a wrong manner and with a wrong heart attitude. It is unacceptable. And there are myriads of such unacceptable kinds of worship. And destiny is determined by that. You may think you're worshipping God, but you're not.
                              Actually, I agree with John MacArthur here.

                              It is enough
                              , because the Gospel and Church of Jesus Christ does not need to be defended by lies or liars.

                              Scripture itself says that “no lie is of the truth” and tells us who the father of lies is.

                              John MacArthur, a man whose teaching I have respected for a number of years has been led into deception by a false spirit or has chosen to become a teacher of false doctrine.

                              John MacArthur, lies to “defend” God and Christianity told as a sermon during a worship service is worshiping Him in a wrong manner and with a showing bad fruits. It is unacceptable.

                              John MacArthur has shown himself to be capable of practising one of the myriads of unacceptable kinds of worship.

                              John MacArthur may think he is worshipping God by speaking lies, but he is not.
                              Last edited by Mod18; 11-02-14, 05:00 PM. Reason: alert: no violation; opinions not about a poster is allowed
                              An open mind is a good thing.
                              Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

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