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Which is the cult? Part 1

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  • Which is the cult? Part 1

    NOTE: This is a general post, meant for discussion. Not a personal one against anyone, no matter what they whine about.

    The Cult of “Christian” Antimasonry




    The source for this list comes from the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry and can be found online at: http://carm.org/cults-outline-analysis




    This is from the first section “What is a cult?” and represents a fairly standard listing of the traits of cults. I have not listed the points that are not relevant to the the discussion of “christian” antimasonry.

    I note how both “Christian” antimasonry and regular Freemasonry compare to these identifying criteria.

    What is a cult?
        1. Generally, it is a group that is unorthodox, esoteric, and has a devotion to a person, object, or a set of ideas.

          1. New Teaching – has a new theology and doctrine: Add works to grace by requiring all Masons to leave Freemasonry, often including writing letters formally withdrawing membership and other public rituals to renounce Freemasonry. Although many antimasons claim that being a Freemason has “nothing to do” with salvation status as a Christian, the constant accusations of Satanism, worshiping other gods and having another plan of salvation, as well as “invitations” to leave Freemasonry and then antimasons will “talk to us”, all show that claim to be false. As does comments that “real Christians” wouldn't be Masons. NOTE: this is a claim to know the heart of a man, which is something that God reserves only to Himself and not to any other.

    Freemasonry – Simply irrelevant. There is nothing new in Freemasonry, with any doctrines and theology being merely that of “natural theology” or, more simply, how a man can know that God exists. See Romans 1:18-20 and Psalms 19:1-4.
        1. Only True Teaching – often considers traditional religious systems to be apostate and it alone possesses the complete truth. A small group that considers the opinion of a vastly greater number of better trained theologians and preachers who don't disapprove of Masonic membership as ignorant, deceived or actively evil. They commonly interpret the Bible in a personal and private manner contrary to orthodox interpretations. This is preaching a different gospel.


    Freemasonry – not relevant, regular Freemasonry does not consider itself to be the possessor of any truth about religion, theology or salvation beyond the bounds of philosophy. Each individual Mason chooses his own religious beliefs.
        1. Strong Leadership – often an individual or small but powerful leadership group holds control of the group's teachings and practices. There are common threads, sources, claims and tactics of deceptive antimasonic teachings. This core shows up in the comments and “teachings” of all antimasons who claim to be Christian.


    Freemasonry - This might be a point regular Freemasonry shares....except that “strong leadership” that “holds control of the group's teachings and practices” in Freemasonry universally teach that beyond the specifically outlined philosophically derived limits that Freemasonry totally rejects anything to do with dictating or defining the religious beliefs, teachings and practices of any individual Mason.
        1. Asset Acquirement – often requires tithing and/or property transfer to the religious system. The professional antimasons who claim to be Christian always have their books, tapes, etc. With the “really real deal on Freemasonry” available for sale. Of course, to “support their ministry” generous contributions are solicited, sometimes with veiled insinuations that one's Christian salvation is threatened by not supporting their antimasonic belief system.


          Freemasonry - a number of Masonic sites have entire books available online for the the public at no charge. Many others can be found available for public reading at lodges and Scottish Rite reading rooms. Of course, a Mason must pay some minor amount in annual dues in most cases or they end up not being Masons anymore.
        1. Isolationist – to facilitate control over the members physically, intellectually, financially and emotionally. Ephesians5-11.org is a prime example with its suggested method of trickery and deceit to ambush a Mason by himself with a group to browbeat him. For example, there is a quote from the document Leading a Christian out of the lodge available on that site. In the section titled “Don't let them know you oppose Freemasonry”, it opens with: “Keep your intentions to witness to a Mason to yourself and your prayer group. If you don't, you may not get the opportunity to witness. Masons will not usually speak with you if they know that you hold a negative opinion about Freemasonry. The more they think you know, the less likely they are to let down their defenses and meet with you. The most common Masonic defense is silence. The most effective method is to work one-on-one with a man who has not had time to speak with other Masons about the meeting.



          So, the first thing the antimason chooses to emphasize here is that you must play false and not openly declare your position, then like a wolf working a flock, cut a “sheep” out for the “kill”. Personally, I find it repugnant when those deluded by antimasonic teachings turn children against their aged parents to harass them over this as I have personally witnessed happening repeatedly.




    Freemasonry - Instead encourages open exchanges of ideas, free thinking and learning. There is no trickery such as noted above. Two points that the followers of antimasonry will use to try to refute this are trivially irrelevant. First, they will claim that Freemasonry is a secret society with secrets. Amazing how a “secret society” has it places and times of meeting publicly available along with the names and contact information of the principal officers. True, what happens in lodge meetings is to be held secret, but that is because it is nobody else's business, exactly the same as many parts of my business information is and exactly the same as my church's business details are not public knowledge, it is, quite frankly, nobody's business, especially if all they are being is nosy, then using that to claim support for falsehoods.

    Secondly, they will point out the rule of no mentioning of religion in lodge meetings, usually by stretching the truth to claim it applies outside of those narrow bounds to prevent Christians from witnessing to their non-Christian Masonic brothers. Simply put, a total falsehood. During many meetings of groups, including those in my church for various business, financial and planning reasons, theological discussion is not permitted beyond opening and closing in prayer because it is not the purpose of the meeting and would be disruptive to the smooth flow of the meeting.

        1. Controlling - exercises control over the members. Sometimes this is through fear, threatening loss of salvation if you leave the group. Sometimes through indoctrination. Threatening loss of salvation, check. For some of the other attempts to control through fear, look up Jack Chick's antimasonic pamphlet “The Curse of Baphomet” where only a cultic ritual destruction of all Masonic related regalia can save the life of the couple's son. Look, “Christian” antimasons suggest using pagan ritual magic instead of the Bible...amazing how that deceptive truth shows the true colors of the antimason who claims to be Christian. (Ignoring the trivially proven fact that, like all other antimasonic falsehoods, this one is not using the truth to spread its "gospel" of antimasonry.)

    Freemasonry – simply put, such actions are repugnant to regular Freemasonry and contrary to the philosophical foundations of the fraternity.

        1. Indoctrination – possesses methods to reinforce the cult's beliefs and standards where opposing views are ridiculed and often misrepresented. Constant refrain of assertions without any proof for their views. The repetition of their position over and over and over again without dealing with logic, facts, context or even dealing with Scripture when quoted against them shows a pattern of indoctrination.


    Freemasonry – Trivially not the case. The “indoctrination” of Freemasonry is to ignore false claims made by those who speak not the truth, but it is not a requirement. For example, as a Christian apologist, I find the false teachings of followers of antimasonry dangerous when they claim to be Christian but teach contrary to the Bible in support of their false beliefs. Antimasonry as commonly shown here is most definitely not Christian and has no basis in the Bible except in the most spurious and superficial manner that depends on ignorance of the Bible and, the commonly repeated and proven, avoidance of actually discussion on antimasonry's claimed Bible “proofs”. The pattern of deception noted above will automatically disturb anyone who notes it, since the source for that pattern was someone who was not only antimason, but anti-Christian as well. It also disturbingly shows up commonly in anti-Semitic groups. Nice to know the source of the tactics of deceivers.

        1. Apocalyptic – to give the members a future focus and philosophical purpose in avoiding the apocalypse or being delivered through it. Often cited as a “sign of the times” by misusing the verses on end times deception to link to Freemasonry. Of course, the logical flaw that deception should be increasing(!), which means Freemasonry should be growing, but instead, all fraternal bodies are declining in membership as the population ages and more people are dying off.


    Freemasonry – has no eschatological position since it is not a religion or substitute for religion.

        1. Experience – various practices including meditation, repetition of words and/or phrases and “spiritual” enlightenment with God are used as confirmation of their truth. This one isn't closely relevant unless it falls under the “spiritual” enlightenment clause because of the number of “christian” antimasons who rely on personal testimonies of being “convicted” by some spirit, which gives them the authority to be unquestioned by all “real Christians”. That their spirit leads them to contradict the Bible also shows the spirit they are following isn't a holy one.


    Freemasonry – not relevant since it is not a religion or a substitute for religion.

        1. Persecution – predictions of being persecuted, often combined with claiming any opposing views demonstrated against them as a form of persecution. Done deal, this is constant.



    Freemasonry – doesn't care. Freemasonry's position is that the false claims of deceivers are expected and should be ignored as the falsehoods they are. Again, my personal one as a Christian is to point out the non-Christian teachings and practices of the followers of antimasonry, but I don't consider their tactics and untruths to be persecution, merely deceptive to Christians.

    Last edited by kamatu; 12-30-18, 10:02 PM.
    An open mind is a good thing.
    Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

  • #2
    Which is the cult? Part 2


    Many have non-verifiable belief systems

    1. For example, they teach something that cannot be verified. The best example of this remains the anonymous, supposed Mason who, contrary to what Freemasonry teaches, has decided that “Freemasonry is all the religion he needs...”. Then somehow this applies to all Masons everywhere. I'm not even going to touch on the ethical problems of using this kind of example, where some unknown person's actions contrary to what the teachings of a group (of any sort) somehow condemns the group.


    Freemasonry – Freemasonry specifically instructs each member that they are to study their holy writings and attend their faith's services. On the contrary, Freemasonry's philosophical beliefs and teachings are publicly available and as verifiable by logic as anything else.


    1. Often, the philosophy makes sense only if you adopt the full set of values and definitions that it teaches. With this kind of belief, truth becomes unverifiable, internalized, and easily manipulated through the philosophical systems of its inventor. This one rings a loud and clear bell, because the first issue is the claim that Freemasonry is a religion. Now once you assume that one without proof, actually contrary to objective facts, then you can gallop along adding in all kinds of trappings of religion freely and reinterpreting everything to suit your fancy and agenda. The antimason who claims to be Christian cannot get out of the mindset of beliefs, private (and sometimes heretical) interpretations of Scripture and seriously weird conspiracy theory “logic”. This is why “christian” antimasons often fail to answer questions about their beliefs and Scriptural interpretations, because they cannot defend them except within the framework of their core antimasonic belief system.




    Freemasonry – In contrast, Freemasonry imposes no such encompassing belief system, instead encouraging questioning and the use of reason while only having a few concrete concepts as a basis for its philosophical basis. Even those few are open to interpretation by individual Masons and those individuals do not have to agree on them exacty.




    The Leader of a Cult
    1. Often charismatic and is considered very special for varying reasons.
    • The leader has received a special revelation from God. Very common, you can see it on many antimasonic sites, all based on testimonies about some spirit guiding them.




    Freemasonry – Since it isn't a religion or substitute for religion, Freemasonry cannot have such a special revelation, let alone one that contradicts Scripture as the beliefs of followers of antimasonry do.
    • The leader claims to be appointed by God for a mission. Well, starting up multiple ministries doesn't count, does it? /sarcasm ends




    Freemasonry – Again, since it is not a religion or substitute for religion, this isn't applicable.
    • The leader claims to have special abilities. Their special “word” and “leading” that teaches them things taught to Masons that Masons don't seem to remember being taught, anywhere, at any time, in any regular lodge.




    Freemasonry – Which is precisely the point. Antimasonry depends for its very existence and proofs on making up untruths about what Freemasonry supposedly teaches that is not taught in any regular lodge. The need for such deceptions and trivially provable falsehoods as the basis of antimasonry shows that the antimasonic faith is one contrary to the teachings of the Bible. For a discerning Christian using the Scriptures, this condemns antimasonry as a false teaching and not Christian.

    1. The leader is often above reproach and is not to be denied or contradicted. Self evident by reading antimasonic material everywhere. To contradict the pronouncements of the antimason who claims to be Christian is to be branded a liar, ignorant, stupid or very evil. In any case, not “worthy” of questioning someone as exalted as the antimason. For example, among the many posts over the decade or more on these forums this level of absolute arrogance has been shown by certain antimasons who whine about being “insulted” by the truth while not caring one whit that these followers of antimasonry have been caught red-handed twisting Scripture and offering blatantly false teachings when compared to what the Bible clearly states. Instead, they whine and try to shut down the truths and proofs the antimason cannot refute by claiming offense at being outed is deceivers and bearers of false witness.




    Freemasonry – This level of arrogance doesn't exist in Freemasonry. Debates among Masons can be quite lively affairs with one of the primary hallmarks being attempting to understand other positions even if you disagree with them. Look at all the time that antimasons spend imputing fake authori-tie to whatever Masonic source they try to twist to fit their outright fabrications and falsehoods, when the simple truth of the matter ALWAYS among regular Masons is that no one man speaks for Masonry except the Grand Master, but only is his Grand Jurisdiction and for his term in office.







    This makes it really conclusive which group gives all the signs of being a non-Christian cult, and it isn't Freemasonry. Of course, the constantly changing goalposts, the perverse inability to absolutely never admit an error (as in an actual error, not some politically correct whining about being offended), the constant fleeing from any study of Scripture (yes, antimasons are known for dropping a verse, then claiming it supports their position, but if you actually examine the verse in context, it condemns antimasonry either directly or because is shows them to be bearing false witness), the uncritical acceptance of any fellow travelers whose writing can potential support their fabrications (even when they are proven forgers, liars and con artists...and some of these people even claim to be Christian apologists...ROFL), and the constant projecting on regular Freemasonry of the traits shown ONLY by the followers of antimasonry, NOT by regular Freemasonry.
    An open mind is a good thing.
    Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

    Comment


    • #3
      LoLz! What a load of shinola! It took you 5 months of absence of come up with this?
      Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Tim 2:15
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      • #4
        Originally posted by kamatu View Post
        Freemasonry – not relevant since it is not a religion or a substitute for religion.

            1. Persecution – predictions of being persecuted, often combined with claiming any opposing views demonstrated against them as a form of persecution. Done deal, this is constant.



        Freemasonry – doesn't care. Freemasonry's position is that the false claims of deceivers are expected and should be ignored as the falsehoods they are. Again, my personal one as a Christian is to point out the non-Christian teachings and practices of the followers of antimasonry, but I don't consider their tactics and untruths to be persecution, merely deceptive to Christians.
        It's been a little while since I've addressed the subject of "persecution" as the term is misused by the Cults (JWs, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, etc.) of the Occult (Freemasonry/Illuminati) and perhaps it would be good to have a discussion here about how Freemasonry misuses "persecution" per the indoctrination of their adherants.

        Kamatu, will you please provide the quote from Albert Pike's "Morals and Dogma" that pertains to how "persecution is Freemasonry's best friend"? Then we can begin a dialog on how it is that "persecution" is misused by the Occult in deceiving people into the House of the Dead; the Satanic ritual abuses; worship of the Devil, and so forth, and then, afterwards, we can contrast that "misuse" to what is actually written in The Holy Bible pertaining to The Lord Jesus Christ's use of the word "persecution" and we can take the discussion more in-depth to determine whether or not if Freemasonry is actually compatible with Biblical Christianity.

        Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Tim 2:15
        __________________
        Don't be Bible DECEIVED Get a KJB 1611 Today!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jaeger View Post

          It's been a little while since I've addressed the subject of "persecution" as the term is misused by the Cults (JWs, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, etc.) of the Occult (Freemasonry/Illuminati) and perhaps it would be good to have a discussion here about how Freemasonry misuses "persecution" per the indoctrination of their adherants.

          Kamatu, will you please provide the quote from Albert Pike's "Morals and Dogma" that pertains to how "persecution is Freemasonry's best friend"? Then we can begin a dialog on how it is that "persecution" is misused by the Occult in deceiving people into the House of the Dead; the Satanic ritual abuses; worship of the Devil, and so forth, and then, afterwards, we can contrast that "misuse" to what is actually written in The Holy Bible pertaining to The Lord Jesus Christ's use of the word "persecution" and we can take the discussion more in-depth to determine whether or not if Freemasonry is actually compatible with Biblical Christianity.
          Actually, I'll let you find a quote from Morals and Dogma if you want to use one as a basis for your position. I read the book a couple of decades ago and given its size and the fact I'm not interested in doing so a second time, I don't recall any such quote.

          Although, I'm not sure what purpose your post serves, since the point being made is that the antimasonic believers who claim to be Christian act like a cult and Freemasonry does not.
          An open mind is a good thing.
          Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

          Comment


          • #6
            I must admit, your site does have a boat load of books, of which can be useful in exposing Masonic practices & hypocrisies, but I couldn't help but notice that there are many books that are not listed there. Can you guess the titles? Can you guess the subject matter? Why not be completely transparent and post the links to the hard core books on witchcraft, Satanism, and so forth that are used by the Masons instead of the watered down list that is intended for the luring in of the simple minded and unlearned folks?
            Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Tim 2:15
            __________________
            Don't be Bible DECEIVED Get a KJB 1611 Today!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jaeger View Post
              I must admit, your site does have a boat load of books, of which can be useful in exposing Masonic practices & hypocrisies, but I couldn't help but notice that there are many books that are not listed there. Can you guess the titles? Can you guess the subject matter? Why not be completely transparent and post the links to the hard core books on witchcraft, Satanism, and so forth that are used by the Masons instead of the watered down list that is intended for the luring in of the simple minded and unlearned folks?
              There is no such list in use by regular Freemasonry. Some such list might be in use by individual Masons, but that is their choice of religion. I have no evidence that any Masons I've ever met use such, but then it is something that cannot be proven because you cannot prove a negative. Making such a claim as you do qualifies as a logical fallacy, the argument from ignorance, since you claim that I cannot "prove" there is no such list, then your claim wins and there is such a list. Why don't you try answering my question that antimasons cannot answer in the other thread? Because without that answer, no matter what you claim, it will NOT HAVE ANY AUTHORITY over the body of Masons in Freemasonry, which means your claims are irrelevant and possibly even false.

              That is why that question has been posted, outright begging for some kind of citation from any official credible regular Grand Lodge source that can be verified. Not what some Grand Lodge officer said somewhere or wrote somewhere in a non official setting or manner. Without it, all of these various fake claims by all these followers of antimasonry will be shown to be bearers of false witness and followers of a certain someone according to John 8:44.
              An open mind is a good thing.
              Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by kamatu View Post

                There is no such list in use by regular Freemasonry. Some such list might be in use by individual Masons, but that is their choice of religion. I have no evidence that any Masons I've ever met use such, but then it is something that cannot be proven because you cannot prove a negative. Making such a claim as you do qualifies as a logical fallacy, the argument from ignorance, since you claim that I cannot "prove" there is no such list, then your claim wins and there is such a list. Why don't you try answering my question that antimasons cannot answer in the other thread? Because without that answer, no matter what you claim, it will NOT HAVE ANY AUTHORITY over the body of Masons in Freemasonry, which means your claims are irrelevant and possibly even false.

                That is why that question has been posted, outright begging for some kind of citation from any official credible regular Grand Lodge source that can be verified. Not what some Grand Lodge officer said somewhere or wrote somewhere in a non official setting or manner. Without it, all of these various fake claims by all these followers of antimasonry will be shown to be bearers of false witness and followers of a certain someone according to John 8:44.
                Oh, but you already know that I can prove everything that I have said ...
                https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...74#post5748574
                Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Tim 2:15
                __________________
                Don't be Bible DECEIVED Get a KJB 1611 Today!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jaeger View Post

                  Oh, but you already know that I can prove everything that I have said ...
                  https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...74#post5748574
                  No, you cannot prove any such thing. You cannot even answer the question I asked in the other thread. You still use Morals & Dogma as a source like it is a masonic bible, but you cannot address the preface that denies all the authority YOU (not Freemasonry or Masons) claim for Pike's book. Nope, you just keep making stuff up and throwing it trying to get some of it to stick and never admit your errors. Classic traits of a certain school of propaganda.
                  An open mind is a good thing.
                  Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by kamatu View Post

                    No, you cannot prove any such thing. You cannot even answer the question I asked in the other thread. You still use Morals & Dogma as a source like it is a masonic bible, but you cannot address the preface that denies all the authority YOU (not Freemasonry or Masons) claim for Pike's book. Nope, you just keep making stuff up and throwing it trying to get some of it to stick and never admit your errors. Classic traits of a certain school of propaganda.
                    I don't like repeating myself, so I took the liberty of grabbing the link to my last reply to you:
                    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...79#post5753779

                    We both know that Pike's book is the Mason's go to, and is revered by the Masons. We also know that Antom LeVey wrote the Mason's Satanic bible. We also know that Albert Mackey, Albert Pike, along with Manly P. Hall and Aleister Crowley are the Mason's 4 primary daddies of Freemasonry, and each taught the very doctrines of devils that are blasphemies against The True and living God, and we further know that those blasphemies are of the false religions of the world; of temples of idols, and so forth.

                    Would you like to start copying and pasting from each of those books onto this thread so we can give them close inspection and prove my case?
                    Last edited by Jaeger; 01-02-19, 11:25 PM. Reason: correct some spelling
                    Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Tim 2:15
                    __________________
                    Don't be Bible DECEIVED Get a KJB 1611 Today!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jaeger View Post

                      I don't like repeating myself, so I took the liberty of grabbing the link to my last reply to you:
                      https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...79#post5753779

                      We both know that Pike's book is the Mason's go to, and is revered by the Masons. We also know that Antom LeVey wrote the Mason's Satanic bible. We also know that Albert Mackey, Albert Pike, along with Manly P. Hall and Aleister Crowley are the Mason's 4 primary daddies of Freemasonry, and each taught the very doctrines of devils that are blasphemies against The True and living God, and we further know that those blasphemies are of the false religions of the world; of temples of idols, and so forth.

                      Would you like to start copying and pasting from each of those books onto this thread so we can give them close inspection and prove my case?
                      Oh my. How droll.

                      The "4 primary daddies of Freemasonry"? Any documentation to back that up? How do you get around the preface in Morals & Dogma? Besides "we iz de antimasonz, wink wink, nod nod, nudge nudge, it iz all trulee true becuz we, de antimasonz, sez so!"? Anything? Or just claiming that you know, all antimasons know and (quite brazenly and falsely) that "all Masons know this"?

                      Hence, if "all Masons know this", you should have no problem answering the question that antimasons cannot answer. But, you won't because no antimason can answer it because their claims are false.

                      BTW, I notice how you want me to do all this grunt work, especially with books I've never owned, never ready, never had recommended to me to read (except by some seriously fruitcake conspiracy theory loon websites) and aren't interested in reading. They have no relevance to the study of Masonic philosophy. They are only sources for antimasonic conspiracy theory hoaxes.

                      Oh, and I prove Pike and Mackey get misquoted by antimasons to "prove" their antimasonic beliefs....in Character Counts.
                      An open mind is a good thing.
                      Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by kamatu View Post

                        Oh my. How droll.

                        The "4 primary daddies of Freemasonry"? Any documentation to back that up? How do you get around the preface in Morals & Dogma? Besides "we iz de antimasonz, wink wink, nod nod, nudge nudge, it iz all trulee true becuz we, de antimasonz, sez so!"? Anything? Or just claiming that you know, all antimasons know and (quite brazenly and falsely) that "all Masons know this"?

                        Hence, if "all Masons know this", you should have no problem answering the question that antimasons cannot answer. But, you won't because no antimason can answer it because their claims are false.

                        BTW, I notice how you want me to do all this grunt work, especially with books I've never owned, never ready, never had recommended to me to read (except by some seriously fruitcake conspiracy theory loon websites) and aren't interested in reading. They have no relevance to the study of Masonic philosophy. They are only sources for antimasonic conspiracy theory hoaxes.

                        Oh, and I prove Pike and Mackey get misquoted by antimasons to "prove" their antimasonic beliefs....in Character Counts.
                        We both know there is proof, and we both know that you have seen the list of Ministries that I had posted. Per the grunt work, why shouldn't you do the grunt work? Really now? A "good Mason" should be able to give an answer for what he believes, and should go to town copying and pasting from the books of the Authors that I listed. I have met other Masons that would do this without hesitation. Why are the Masons "here" so different?

                        You are so quick to accuse people of mis-quoting Pike & Mackey, but what have I asked? Hello? Are you there? What did I ask? Oh wait, let me grab a link for the above post on this thread:

                        https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...00#post5753800
                        Last edited by Jaeger; 01-03-19, 12:20 AM. Reason: typo
                        Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Tim 2:15
                        __________________
                        Don't be Bible DECEIVED Get a KJB 1611 Today!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Kamatu, In other posts in other threads in this Forum, you have accused Christians multiple times of misquoting Albert Pike and Albert G. Mackey, so really, is it to much to ask for you to copy and paste the writings of their books into the pages here, of your thread so that we can make a mutual determination as to the context of the subject matter and get to the root of what Freemasonry really teaches its adherants? It appears alread that you have the developed skill to copy and paste? Come on now, and let's get on with it, and settle this once and for all!
                          Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Tim 2:15
                          __________________
                          Don't be Bible DECEIVED Get a KJB 1611 Today!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by kamatu View Post
                            NOTE: This is a general post, meant for discussion. Not a personal one against anyone, no matter what they whine about.

                            The Cult of “Christian” Antimasonry




                            The source for this list comes from the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry and can be found online at: http://carm.org/cults-outline-analysis




                            This is from the first section “What is a cult?” and represents a fairly standard listing of the traits of cults. I have not listed the points that are not relevant to the the discussion of “christian” antimasonry.

                            I note how both “Christian” antimasonry and regular Freemasonry compare to these identifying criteria.

                            What is a cult?
                                1. Generally, it is a group that is unorthodox, esoteric, and has a devotion to a person, object, or a set of ideas.

                                  1. New Teaching – has a new theology and doctrine: Add works to grace by requiring all Masons to leave Freemasonry, often including writing letters formally withdrawing membership and other public rituals to renounce Freemasonry. Although many antimasons claim that being a Freemason has “nothing to do” with salvation status as a Christian, the constant accusations of Satanism, worshiping other gods and having another plan of salvation, as well as “invitations” to leave Freemasonry and then antimasons will “talk to us”, all show that claim to be false. As does comments that “real Christians” wouldn't be Masons. NOTE: this is a claim to know the heart of a man, which is something that God reserves only to Himself and not to any other.

                            Freemasonry – Simply irrelevant. There is nothing new in Freemasonry, with any doctrines and theology being merely that of “natural theology” or, more simply, how a man can know that God exists. See Romans 1:18-20 and Psalms 19:1-4.
                                1. Only True Teaching – often considers traditional religious systems to be apostate and it alone possesses the complete truth. A small group that considers the opinion of a vastly greater number of better trained theologians and preachers who don't disapprove of Masonic membership as ignorant, deceived or actively evil. They commonly interpret the Bible in a personal and private manner contrary to orthodox interpretations. This is preaching a different gospel.


                            Freemasonry – not relevant, regular Freemasonry does not consider itself to be the possessor of any truth about religion, theology or salvation beyond the bounds of philosophy. Each individual Mason chooses his own religious beliefs.
                                1. Strong Leadership – often an individual or small but powerful leadership group holds control of the group's teachings and practices. There are common threads, sources, claims and tactics of deceptive antimasonic teachings. This core shows up in the comments and “teachings” of all antimasons who claim to be Christian.


                            Freemasonry - This might be a point regular Freemasonry shares....except that “strong leadership” that “holds control of the group's teachings and practices” in Freemasonry universally teach that beyond the specifically outlined philosophically derived limits that Freemasonry totally rejects anything to do with dictating or defining the religious beliefs, teachings and practices of any individual Mason.
                                1. Asset Acquirement – often requires tithing and/or property transfer to the religious system. The professional antimasons who claim to be Christian always have their books, tapes, etc. With the “really real deal on Freemasonry” available for sale. Of course, to “support their ministry” generous contributions are solicited, sometimes with veiled insinuations that one's Christian salvation is threatened by not supporting their antimasonic belief system.


                                  Freemasonry - a number of Masonic sites have entire books available online for the the public at no charge. Many others can be found available for public reading at lodges and Scottish Rite reading rooms. Of course, a Mason must pay some minor amount in annual dues in most cases or they end up not being Masons anymore.
                                1. Isolationist – to facilitate control over the members physically, intellectually, financially and emotionally. Ephesians5-11.org is a prime example with its suggested method of trickery and deceit to ambush a Mason by himself with a group to browbeat him. For example, there is a quote from the document Leading a Christian out of the lodge available on that site. In the section titled “Don't let them know you oppose Freemasonry”, it opens with: “Keep your intentions to witness to a Mason to yourself and your prayer group. If you don't, you may not get the opportunity to witness. Masons will not usually speak with you if they know that you hold a negative opinion about Freemasonry. The more they think you know, the less likely they are to let down their defenses and meet with you. The most common Masonic defense is silence. The most effective method is to work one-on-one with a man who has not had time to speak with other Masons about the meeting.



                                  So, the first thing the antimason chooses to emphasize here is that you must play false and not openly declare your position, then like a wolf working a flock, cut a “sheep” out for the “kill”. Personally, I find it repugnant when those deluded by antimasonic teachings turn children against their aged parents to harass them over this as I have personally witnessed happening repeatedly.




                            Freemasonry - Instead encourages open exchanges of ideas, free thinking and learning. There is no trickery such as noted above. Two points that the followers of antimasonry will use to try to refute this are trivially irrelevant. First, they will claim that Freemasonry is a secret society with secrets. Amazing how a “secret society” has it places and times of meeting publicly available along with the names and contact information of the principal officers. True, what happens in lodge meetings is to be held secret, but that is because it is nobody else's business, exactly the same as many parts of my business information is and exactly the same as my church's business details are not public knowledge, it is, quite frankly, nobody's business, especially if all they are being is nosy, then using that to claim support for falsehoods.

                            Secondly, they will point out the rule of no mentioning of religion in lodge meetings, usually by stretching the truth to claim it applies outside of those narrow bounds to prevent Christians from witnessing to their non-Christian Masonic brothers. Simply put, a total falsehood. During many meetings of groups, including those in my church for various business, financial and planning reasons, theological discussion is not permitted beyond opening and closing in prayer because it is not the purpose of the meeting and would be disruptive to the smooth flow of the meeting.

                                1. Controlling - exercises control over the members. Sometimes this is through fear, threatening loss of salvation if you leave the group. Sometimes through indoctrination. Threatening loss of salvation, check. For some of the other attempts to control through fear, look up Jack Chick's antimasonic pamphlet “The Curse of Baphomet” where only a cultic ritual destruction of all Masonic related regalia can save the life of the couple's son. Look, “Christian” antimasons suggest using pagan ritual magic instead of the Bible...amazing how that deceptive truth shows the true colors of the antimason who claims to be Christian. (Ignoring the trivially proven fact that, like all other antimasonic falsehoods, this one is not using the truth to spread its "gospel" of antimasonry.)

                            Freemasonry – simply put, such actions are repugnant to regular Freemasonry and contrary to the philosophical foundations of the fraternity.

                                1. Indoctrination – possesses methods to reinforce the cult's beliefs and standards where opposing views are ridiculed and often misrepresented. Constant refrain of assertions without any proof for their views. The repetition of their position over and over and over again without dealing with logic, facts, context or even dealing with Scripture when quoted against them shows a pattern of indoctrination.


                            Freemasonry – Trivially not the case. The “indoctrination” of Freemasonry is to ignore false claims made by those who speak not the truth, but it is not a requirement. For example, as a Christian apologist, I find the false teachings of followers of antimasonry dangerous when they claim to be Christian but teach contrary to the Bible in support of their false beliefs. Antimasonry as commonly shown here is most definitely not Christian and has no basis in the Bible except in the most spurious and superficial manner that depends on ignorance of the Bible and, the commonly repeated and proven, avoidance of actually discussion on antimasonry's claimed Bible “proofs”. The pattern of deception noted above will automatically disturb anyone who notes it, since the source for that pattern was someone who was not only antimason, but anti-Christian as well. It also disturbingly shows up commonly in anti-Semitic groups. Nice to know the source of the tactics of deceivers.

                                1. Apocalyptic – to give the members a future focus and philosophical purpose in avoiding the apocalypse or being delivered through it. Often cited as a “sign of the times” by misusing the verses on end times deception to link to Freemasonry. Of course, the logical flaw that deception should be increasing(!), which means Freemasonry should be growing, but instead, all fraternal bodies are declining in membership as the population ages and more people are dying off.


                            Freemasonry – has no eschatological position since it is not a religion or substitute for religion.

                                1. Experience – various practices including meditation, repetition of words and/or phrases and “spiritual” enlightenment with God are used as confirmation of their truth. This one isn't closely relevant unless it falls under the “spiritual” enlightenment clause because of the number of “christian” antimasons who rely on personal testimonies of being “convicted” by some spirit, which gives them the authority to be unquestioned by all “real Christians”. That their spirit leads them to contradict the Bible also shows the spirit they are following isn't a holy one.


                            Freemasonry – not relevant since it is not a religion or a substitute for religion.

                                1. Persecution – predictions of being persecuted, often combined with claiming any opposing views demonstrated against them as a form of persecution. Done deal, this is constant.



                            Freemasonry – doesn't care. Freemasonry's position is that the false claims of deceivers are expected and should be ignored as the falsehoods they are. Again, my personal one as a Christian is to point out the non-Christian teachings and practices of the followers of antimasonry, but I don't consider their tactics and untruths to be persecution, merely deceptive to Christians.

                            I applaud you for getting to the root of what these folks are like.

                            There was an infamous antimason site that no longer exists that I made similar claims against. Flipped the whole cult premise back on them.

                            I felt that God lead me to this discovery. I felt God's hand on me.

                            Ironically, that site was shut down 3 months after God showed me how wicked they were. That was the E511 site.

                            I thank God that their wickedness was removed!

                            We Christian Masons have to defend against these attacks.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jaeger View Post

                              We both know there is proof, and we both know that you have seen the list of Ministries that I had posted. Per the grunt work, why shouldn't you do the grunt work? Really now? A "good Mason" should be able to give an answer for what he believes, and should go to town copying and pasting from the books of the Authors that I listed. I have met other Masons that would do this without hesitation. Why are the Masons "here" so different?

                              You are so quick to accuse people of mis-quoting Pike & Mackey, but what have I asked? Hello? Are you there? What did I ask? Oh wait, let me grab a link for the above post on this thread:

                              https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...00#post5753800
                              Character Counts has several examples of misquotes.

                              After all, I let the antimasons pull their misquote and then link to prove they did so.

                              It is known as giving someone enough rope to hang themselves.

                              Those who have been proven false by me before avoid doing so these days, which is why someone lists just page numbers without quotes or anything else to the citation.

                              This way they get to make their grandiose false claims (Big Lie tactics) and not have to be proven to be speakers of explicit falsehoods.
                              An open mind is a good thing.
                              Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

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