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  • Another Antimason fumbles Scripture

    Well then, I'll get the quote of Pike myself. I thought just MAYBE you might would go a mile to post the quotation by Pike for me, per my request. Per your citation of John 13:35, for the benifit of Christians that don't know that Freemasonry is the Antichrist Movement/Satanism; I recommend that my Brothers and Sisters consider 2Corinthians 6:14-18, 2Corinthians 11, 2Peter 2-3, 1John, 2John, 3John, 2Timothy 3 (highlighting verses 8-9), & Jude per the importance of not allowing for Masons to glory as Christians.
    Oh, look another antimason with drive-by Scripture quotes they don't understand. Let's see what repetitive claims based on the antimasonic belief system we have, because it sure doesn't come from an orthodox Christian belief.

    Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

    Well, given that this passage speaks to marriage ("yoked") of Christians, I'm not sure what you are pushing here. You could stretch this to cover all relationships between Christians and unbelievers, but then you deny the ability to witness since having contact ("communion") with them at all (except maybe scream preaching on the corners) would be impossible by the way you appear to be trying to interpret. Let alone the clearly commanded things that Christians are admonished to do in the world, like feeding the poor, aiding the sick and succoring the oppressed. So, given your antimasonic beliefs while claiming you are Christian, how do you justify the sin (by this (mis)interpretation you imply) you are committing by even interacting with those here?

    What we have here is a private interpretation, which is spoken against in accordance with 2 Peter 1:20 and a sign of a false teacher.

    Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles. But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things. Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely? I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service. And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself. As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia. Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (2 Corinthians 11:1-15)

    If the rest of the chapter (sufferings of Paul as an apostle) are relevant, then let us know why. I will give you the credit to think you don't have that level of hubris. Although given the sheer brass of your claims...

    Really, how do you apply this? Deception with subtlety? Amusing given the rather twisted web woven by antimasons in a conspiracy theory fashion as one of their primary tactic. Without any proof and with no teaching in Freemasonry, antimasons declare certain obscure books as having authority over Masons as the Bible does for Christians. Even more amusing, antimasons regularly "edit" those books to achieve "more clarity" by openly twisting them. This is outright deception and another sign that antimasons are false teachers for Christians.

    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. (2 Peter 2:1-22)

    In this case, the entire chapter is more relevant to this discussion given what has been proven about antimasons who claim to be Christian. Directly, all antimasons who claim to be Christian add works to Grace, which most certainly fits under the title of "damnable heresy". Adding works to Grace also denies Christ, because it denies His teachings as given to us in the Bible, which would be yet another sign that antimasons who claim to be Christian are teachers of false doctrines.

    The last sentence is especially relevant, since like Anti-Bible Lite crowd, JWs and Mormons, the antimasons continue to return to the same old errors (from a Christian perspective) without any justification based on Scripture, instead adding their own personal interpretations on top of the Bible and their personal "authori-tie" claims while twisting things into conspiracy theories.

    This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:5-10)

    A bit from 1 John, although this is in reality a simply attempt at fake piousness on your part by shotgunning out a bunch of Scripture with no exposition or explanation of the relevance, tossing out a five chapter book for part of your drive-by is a bit much. So, pare it down to what you think is relevant. I can tell you by much experience as a Christian dealing with various cults that I'm much more careful with context than followers of antimasonry. So I'll be sure to call you on being out of context and correct you.

    In this case, a simple look about the forums will show that one side in this discussion readily engages in suppression of the other side. Antimasons willfully take down any and every post that they can that proves their falseness and pettiness. They then speak great swelling words about what was in those posts, even though by their own actions they have suppressed that information, censoring it so that nothing can be shown. These antimasons depend on whining about how they are "offended" and the limited time of those who judge to make their "case".

    Note that I almost never flag a post for moderation and have eaten points for discussing exactly why I'm asking a post to be moderated for the "crime" of discussing moderation standards. Heh, the last time an antimason challenged me on this one and told me to "report away", that individual got a lengthy timeout in less than a day.

    So, the difference here is that the followers of antimasonry attempt to suppress and conceal, which fits them as walkers in darkness, while the Christians who are Masons allow the slurs, insults, outright gossip, conspiracy theories and grandiose falsehoods to exist. This agrees with the Bible for our Christian walk and also agrees with the philosophy taught by Freemasonry. Walk in the light and let the deceptions of those bearing false witness against you be shown to all.

    An open mind is a good thing.
    Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

  • #2
    Another Antimason Fumbles Scripture, part 2

    I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. (2 John 1:4-11)

    Removed the greetings from the beginning and end, if you think they are relevant, then go ahead and quote the specific verses and tell us why they are important to this issue.

    Again, well proven by a review of the threads here that antimasons do not walk in truth because they conceal in darkness anything against their position. Claim Christ has not come in the flesh is one way of denying Him. Not following His instructions given in the Bible are a similar way of denying Him. Without even as far a reach as the standard antimason makes, it could be said that it is the same as denying Jesus had come in the flesh because antimasons ignore His teachings.

    Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God. (3 John 1:10-11)

    Again, picked what appears relevant from your drive-by shotgunning trying to appear pious. Again, you are welcome to expound on the rest, but given the history of followers of antimasonry, you won't be able to.

    This one, well I've been prated on with malicious words quite a bit by antimasons who claim to be Christians. I've also seen the calls to cast me out of churches, but the falsehoods of antimasons cannot cast me out of the Church. This is just another sign of deceptions by antimasons, given that the decline in the membership of Freemasonry (which enjoins all of its members to study their sacred writings and attend their place of worship regularly) coincides with a decline in Bible reading, Bible comprehension, church attendance, and many known deceptions arising from those issues.

    Amusing contradiction: IF Freemasonry was the satanic end times deception that antimasons who claim to be Christians pushed, THEN Freemasonry should be growing mightily as a servant of evil...but it isn't, which exposes another false teaching of antimasonry.

    Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It does teach that Masons who are Christians should become stronger Christians though, based on the teachings of the Bible. The philosophies taught by Freemasonry are not in conflict with Christianity based on the Scriptures. Often enough, Freemasonry is in conflict with "Christianity" based on non-Biblical teachings and forms, as the thread on the ways antimasonry fits the hallmarks of being a false Christian cult clearly shows.

    This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. (2 Timothy 3:1-9)

    Again, what appears to be the most useful portion, using your choice, my knowledge of the falsehoods told by followers of antimasonry, and in more relevant context.

    Yep, several traits in that list that can be shown to be part of the antimasonic pattern and not of the Christians who are Freemasons. They can keep their antimasonic "form of godliness" (like spewing out Bible references without being able to expound on them or defend them, as the Bible commands Christians to do). As for me and mine, we will take the actual thing that comes from being a Christian that follows the Word of God.

    Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. (Jude 1:3-16)

    Again, blasting out entire chapters like you have a clue what they mean without any exposition or context is a sign of fakes, teachers of false doctrines and non-Christian cultists, not one of Christian faith. However, there is some that easily stands out against followers of antimasonry, as has been shown here repeatedly in these forums, in the descriptions of the "ungodly men" Jude writes of.

    One that comes to mind would be the antimason who demands that Masons contact some mythical list of "Christian broadcasters" to give him (the antimason) air time before he (the antimason) will provide his "proof" about the outlandish claims ("great swelling words", etc.) the antimason makes.

    These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. (Proverbs 6:16-19)

    A bit of my own quoting of Scripture back at the antimasons. Note that five of these seven abominations spoken of have been shown to be used by antimasons that claim to be Christian. It could be argued trivially that it is six of them and with a bit of effort, all seven of them.

    According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (2 Peter 1:3-9)

    This is what the Bible teaches Christians to do as their calling. This is the path that all Christians should be walking. Antimasons who claim to be Christians who try to use the Bible to support their falsehoods show that they do not walk this path. They do not fight, struggle and drag themselves down this path as Christians do.

    Antimasons claim "faith", but their lack of Biblical knowledge shows they lack that point.

    To then claim the further virtues is an outright deception.

    Instead, they simply make their claims based on their own personal "authori-tie", which exposes their belief system for what it is as I've noted in the thread on the signs of a cult.


    An open mind is a good thing.
    Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

    Comment


    • #3
      This is a copy of my post from your other thread accusing Christians of misquoting Satanist Albert Pike:

      https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...43#post5779043

      Originally posted by Jaeger View Post
      Kamatu, In other posts in other threads in this Forum, you have accused Christians multiple times of misquoting Albert Pike and Albert G. Mackey, so really, is it to much to ask for you to copy and paste the writings of their books into the pages here, of your thread so that we can make a mutual determination as to the context of the subject matter and get to the root of what Freemasonry really teaches its adherants? It appears alread that you have the developed skill to copy and paste? Come on now, and let's get on with it, and settle this once and for all!
      Originally posted by kamatu View Post

      Character Counts has several examples of misquotes.

      After all, I let the antimasons pull their misquote and then link to prove they did so.

      It is known as giving someone enough rope to hang themselves.

      Those who have been proven false by me before avoid doing so these days, which is why someone lists just page numbers without quotes or anything else to the citation.

      This way they get to make their grandiose false claims (Big Lie tactics) and not have to be proven to be speakers of explicit falsehoods.
      It is amazing how the Mason, after having accused Christians of misquoting the antichrist writings of Albert, has FAILED to provide the full context of the Pike's book, Morals and Dogma on this thread. I have been patient and allowed for some time for the Mason to step up to the plate to prove us wrong. Has the Mason followed through to provide the FULL contextual proof to substatiate his charges against Christians? With there being no surprise, the answer is NO. And before I have yet to even post a quote of Albert Pike, the infamous Masonic Satanist, the Mason has started yet, another thread against me, accusing me of misquoting Albert Pike. There is no proof of a misquote! LoLz!! I cannot help but laugh at the bogus and rediculous charges, though I choose not to laugh at the Mason. The question that is in my mind this morning, is, does the Mason think that with a mass quantity of posts and threads accusing Christians of misquoting the Satanic writings of Freemasonry can make the false accusation true? How many pages are there that make up the Satanic/Antichrist writings of Albert Pike from cover to cover? 900 or 1,000 pages, give or take/plus or minus?

      https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...bles-scripture
      Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Tim 2:15
      __________________
      Don't be Bible DECEIVED Get a KJB 1611 Today!

      Comment


      • #4
        Never trust Pike, or any mason, or any anti-mason, about anything, without verifying - proving - the truth according to Yahweh's Word. (as Yahweh Says, IN His Word).

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jethro77 View Post
          Never trust Pike, or any mason, or any anti-mason, about anything, without verifying - proving - the truth according to Yahweh's Word. (as Yahweh Says, IN His Word).
          Agreed.

          NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. (Psalms 119:105)

          Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. (Romans 7:12)

          And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:10-11)




          An open mind is a good thing.
          Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jaeger View Post
            This is a copy of my post from your other thread accusing Christians of misquoting Satanist Albert Pike:

            https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...43#post5779043





            It is amazing how the Mason, after having accused Christians of misquoting the antichrist writings of Albert, has FAILED to provide the full context of the Pike's book, Morals and Dogma on this thread. I have been patient and allowed for some time for the Mason to step up to the plate to prove us wrong. Has the Mason followed through to provide the FULL contextual proof to substatiate his charges against Christians? With there being no surprise, the answer is NO. And before I have yet to even post a quote of Albert Pike, the infamous Masonic Satanist, the Mason has started yet, another thread against me, accusing me of misquoting Albert Pike. There is no proof of a misquote! LoLz!! I cannot help but laugh at the bogus and rediculous charges, though I choose not to laugh at the Mason. The question that is in my mind this morning, is, does the Mason think that with a mass quantity of posts and threads accusing Christians of misquoting the Satanic writings of Freemasonry can make the false accusation true? How many pages are there that make up the Satanic/Antichrist writings of Albert Pike from cover to cover? 900 or 1,000 pages, give or take/plus or minus?

            https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...bles-scripture
            Antimasons misquote Pike and any other Freemason (and even non-Masons) in general.

            However, this is a thread about YOUR drive-by shotgun Scripture citations. Why don't you address those?

            There are other threads where you can quote whatever you think Pike wrote that provides you proof positive that your antimasonic teachings are based on the Bible and therefore the orthodox Christian faith.

            Here we are talking about the Bible and your citations from it. So, you are getting what you wanted, I'm responding directly to something you kinda sorta maybe references as some kind of vague hand-waving proof that your antimasonic beliefs are backed by the Bible.

            So come on neighbor, you say you are a Christian! Let's do some Bible study here.

            Or do the usual song and dance of antimasonry when the Bible comes up just like you did in this post I'm quoting.

            Or attempt to suppress my posts.

            BTW, why do I have to figure out what quotes to make to support your antimasonry?

            Regardless of what tin foil hat conspiracy theory you have heard, I've never met a Mason with psychic powers, particularly telepathy.

            IOW, I cannot read your mind, you have to put it out in public.

            Which should indicate to you that I'm not going to fall for a silly trick like putting up a quote, deconstructing how it proves that using it to condemn Freemasonry is false and then have the person I'm addressing go: "Nope, that isn't it, wrong quote".

            So quit wasting my time with trivial MBE claims like that when the failure to back up YOUR Biblical citations are gutting your claims for a Biblical or Christian basis for your antimasonic beliefs.
            An open mind is a good thing.
            Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by kamatu View Post

              Antimasons misquote Pike and any other Freemason (and even non-Masons) in general.

              However, this is a thread about YOUR drive-by shotgun Scripture citations. Why don't you address those?

              There are other threads where you can quote whatever you think Pike wrote that provides you proof positive that your antimasonic teachings are based on the Bible and therefore the orthodox Christian faith.

              Here we are talking about the Bible and your citations from it. So, you are getting what you wanted, I'm responding directly to something you kinda sorta maybe references as some kind of vague hand-waving proof that your antimasonic beliefs are backed by the Bible.

              So come on neighbor, you say you are a Christian! Let's do some Bible study here.

              Or do the usual song and dance of antimasonry when the Bible comes up just like you did in this post I'm quoting.

              Or attempt to suppress my posts.

              BTW, why do I have to figure out what quotes to make to support your antimasonry?

              Regardless of what tin foil hat conspiracy theory you have heard, I've never met a Mason with psychic powers, particularly telepathy.

              IOW, I cannot read your mind, you have to put it out in public.

              Which should indicate to you that I'm not going to fall for a silly trick like putting up a quote, deconstructing how it proves that using it to condemn Freemasonry is false and then have the person I'm addressing go: "Nope, that isn't it, wrong quote".

              So quit wasting my time with trivial MBE claims like that when the failure to back up YOUR Biblical citations are gutting your claims for a Biblical or Christian basis for your antimasonic beliefs.
              So wrong you are, Kamatu!

              No one supresses your posts. But if you break the simple rules, then THAT gets deleted and you earn an infraction or warning. You miss the mark, you get the penalty. Very simple!

              In many of your posts here, you take all the Scripture references which we who are Christians gave to you.and contemptiously dismissing them as "drive-by shotgun Scripture citations ". Those Scriptures tell us in many ways that the principles and practices of free masonry is forbidden by God's word. You reveal the content of your character by calling us silly names such "anti-Mason" (which is an ad hominem) then call us "not Christians" because we willingly choose to follow the Bible instead of your club/cult's arcane and forbidden rituals. I suggest that it is YOU, not us who ARE NOT following and obeying Jesus Christ. WE are the REAL Christians, not you.

              Then irrationally, you dismiss the tome of Pike. That is the equivalent of Christians dismissing the works of Billy Graham for no reason.
              MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

              1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

              2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

              3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

              4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by john t View Post

                So wrong you are, Kamatu!

                No one supresses your posts. But if you break the simple rules, then THAT gets deleted and you earn an infraction or warning. You miss the mark, you get the penalty. Very simple!

                In many of your posts here, you take all the Scripture references which we who are Christians gave to you.and contemptiously dismissing them as "drive-by shotgun Scripture citations ". Those Scriptures tell us in many ways that the principles and practices of free masonry is forbidden by God's word. You reveal the content of your character by calling us silly names such "anti-Mason" (which is an ad hominem) then call us "not Christians" because we willingly choose to follow the Bible instead of your club/cult's arcane and forbidden rituals. I suggest that it is YOU, not us who ARE NOT following and obeying Jesus Christ. WE are the REAL Christians, not you.

                Then irrationally, you dismiss the tome of Pike. That is the equivalent of Christians dismissing the works of Billy Graham for no reason.
                TLDR version: This is a thread about the Bible and Bible verses antimasons claim support their position but no exposition was given.

                Despite the accusations made against me, the antimason I'm replying to also chose not to engage in a Bible discussion.

                Instead unsupported accusations and claims, but no addressing of multiple issues across multiple threads, especailly the ones I started (like this one) to specifically address one general issue.

                End TLDR


                1) When the posts point out WITH PROOF logic fallacies and/or contain questions requesting clarification of a position, then yes, it is such.

                After all, the choice to hit the report button is up to an individual.

                This despite pointing out that declaring something a logical fallacy without any proof is the same as calling me a liar.

                As is making up accusations based on posts that don't exist anymore.

                For example, in the past, there have been a number of posts by various antimasons denying my salvation as a Christian for simply being a Freemason. This is direct evidence of an outright heretical contradiction of Scripture.

                I don't attempt to suppress them them and you can find them in the Character Counts thread where I keep them archived as examples (among a great many other issues that antimasons who claim to be Christian have).

                I prefer the intellectual honesty, my skin is thicker that tissue paper and IF there was actually something truly insulting, demeaning, etc in anything other than a vaporous PC sense, then it would prove MY point. Which is why I prefer not to report posts that violate the rules.

                I did so once, on a dare and regret giving in to that temptation, because the despite the personal satisfaction, it destroyed a number of posts that provided proof to Christians that followers of antimasonic beliefs are not what they claim to be.

                2) ROFLMBO!!!!! "In many of your (kamatu's) posts here,....". The distinct LACK of any Scriptural support for the allegations and outright direct falsehoods pronounced by the followers of antimasonry makes this an untrue statement. In fact, I actually complimented Jaeger on having the intestinal fortitude to at least post the Scripture references he did as an oddity among antimasons that claim to be Christian.

                I'm a Bible believing Christian, it is the rule and guide of my faith, I enjoy Bible discussions.

                Tossing out random verses, claiming they are relevant without any exposition, then refusing to discuss them (as you happen to be doing right here in a thread about allegedly antimasonic Bible verses) is not Bible discussion nor is it proving anything about Freemasonry.

                It in fact, proves something about the one engaging in those practices, in a negative manner, if they claim to be Christian. I'm sure you will clarify this situation as one who has just so boldly proclaimed what you have claimed and made the accusations you have just made.

                Do you care to try your hand in some exposition to prove that "Those Scriptures tell us in many ways that the principles and practices of free masonry is forbidden by God's word."?

                Which particular Scriptural quotes do you mean? The ones here? Others?

                Which "principles and practices"?

                Given the sheer amount of bearing of false witness here by antimasons, the evidence presented in the thread comparing Freemasonry and antimasonry that claims to be Christian to the list of cult traits found here on CARM remains without even an attempt at refutation.

                3) Ahhh, Pike. I'm the irrational one? Then answer the question that antimasons who claim to be Christian cannot answer.

                Show us all, for the first time in history, that tiny little smidgen of proof from any regular Grand Lodge that any of these various authors, documents, etc. are to be considered as authoritative to a Mason as the Bible declares itself to be (and is considered so by Bible scholars, even those who are not Christian) so.

                Until you have answered that question antimasons cannot answer, then the only irrationality here is quotes of Pike or other masonic authors and/or documents like they are that authoritative.

                Oh, I notice a distinct lack of those direct quotes of Pike, etc. despite your commentary on the subject.

                Do you care to make a few?

                I/m a Christian, and I know the Truth sets me free, so I can deal with whatever antimasons bring. Usually the first step is pointing out the error in their assumption, but depending on the source, one of the variations of quoting out of context, editing for content, etc. will occur. Oh, along with the total lack of proof on the authority status of the quote.
                Last edited by kamatu; 01-25-19, 02:41 AM.
                An open mind is a good thing.
                Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by kamatu View Post
                  TLDR version:...…..
                  ?????

                  R A Torrey was vehemently opposed to Freemasonry.


                  .
                  Oaths Are Morally Invalid
                  In a moment we shall pass to the second count which I wish to bring against these oaths. But before we do that, I want to show fully that these oaths are morally invalid. Of course it is well known that they are legally invalid, but I want to show that they are also morally invalid. It has been shown already that these oaths are anti-Scriptural, rash and extrajudicial. I have shown that it is impossible that a Masonic lodge have authority from God to administer oaths. Any sound reasoning, therefore, must lead to the conclusion that lodge oaths are not binding on the Christian, who, after making them, comes to realize their true nature.


                  If more proof of the invalidity of these oaths to the Christian is desired, it can be easily produced. In each of the three degrees of the Blue Lodge, before the candidate takes the oath, the Master pledges to the candidate that there is nothing in the oath which can conflict with his duty to God, his country, his neighbor, or himself.

                  Therefore, if the candidate at any time finds that his oath binds him to do anything that is contrary to his duty to God, his country, his neighbor, or himself, THE OATH AT THAT MOMENT BECOMES INVALID. If he comes to see that he was hoodwinked into taking an oath that is hateful in the sight of God, as he should see if he is an intelligent Christian, then the oath has conflicted with his duty to God; therefore he is privileged to, AND SHOULD PROMPTLY DISAVOW THE OATH. FROM EVERY STANDPOINT MASONIC OATHS ARE INVALID TO THE INTELLIGENT CHRISTIAN.
                  from
                  https://sglblibrary.homestead.com/fi...reemasonry.htm
                  MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                  1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                  2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                  3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                  4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If anyone claims to be a Christian, then it is assumed that the claimer does not treat the Bible like a Chinese buffet, taking this, but not that, Instead, the claimant is expected to take the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD into account, obeying ALL of it, and not just the cherry-picked verses, nor making attempts to make the Bible seemingly contradict itself.

                    Therefore let the weight of these verses make their impression upon those who minimize Scripture and/or resist their implications.

                    These are posted in no particular order:
                    .
                    Ephesians 5:12 ESV For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.

                    Amos 3:7 ESV For the Lord God does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets.

                    1 Thessalonians 5:22 ESVAbstain from every form of evil.

                    James 5:12 ESV But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your “yes” be yes and your “no” be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation.

                    Deuteronomy 29:29 ESV“ The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

                    2 Corinthians 6:14-18 ESV Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”

                    There are other verses saying the same sort of thing; so one cannot say, "yes, but...….." and maintain that s/he is a Bible-believing Christian. There can ONLY be one response from the Bible-believer, and that is an enthusiastic, "YES. LORD, I will obey!"


                    MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                    1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                    2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                    3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                    4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by john t View Post

                      ?????

                      R A Torrey was vehemently opposed to Freemasonry.


                      .
                      Oaths Are Morally Invalid
                      In a moment we shall pass to the second count which I wish to bring against these oaths. But before we do that, I want to show fully that these oaths are morally invalid. Of course it is well known that they are legally invalid, but I want to show that they are also morally invalid. It has been shown already that these oaths are anti-Scriptural, rash and extrajudicial. I have shown that it is impossible that a Masonic lodge have authority from God to administer oaths. Any sound reasoning, therefore, must lead to the conclusion that lodge oaths are not binding on the Christian, who, after making them, comes to realize their true nature.


                      If more proof of the invalidity of these oaths to the Christian is desired, it can be easily produced. In each of the three degrees of the Blue Lodge, before the candidate takes the oath, the Master pledges to the candidate that there is nothing in the oath which can conflict with his duty to God, his country, his neighbor, or himself.

                      Therefore, if the candidate at any time finds that his oath binds him to do anything that is contrary to his duty to God, his country, his neighbor, or himself, THE OATH AT THAT MOMENT BECOMES INVALID. If he comes to see that he was hoodwinked into taking an oath that is hateful in the sight of God, as he should see if he is an intelligent Christian, then the oath has conflicted with his duty to God; therefore he is privileged to, AND SHOULD PROMPTLY DISAVOW THE OATH. FROM EVERY STANDPOINT MASONIC OATHS ARE INVALID TO THE INTELLIGENT CHRISTIAN.
                      from
                      https://sglblibrary.homestead.com/fi...reemasonry.htm
                      And R.A. Torrey's opinion, which I only find as a quote by antimasons who claim to be Christian, specifically Duane Washum, who has been shown to hold and support non-Biblical beliefs as promulgated on the E5-11 website. I have yet to find anything other than a few sentences that appear off the cuff by brother Torrey, without any reasoning or justification by brother Torrey.

                      Now, you consider everything R.A. Torrey wrote to be as authoritative as the Bible?
                      Are the written words of R.A. Torrey inspired?
                      Are the written words of R.A. Torrey equal to the words of the Bible?

                      It is seriously important that you clarify your position here.

                      Otherwise you prove yourself guilty of wasting everyone's time with a red herring.

                      I'll provide you with my position and answers, they are No, No, and No. I've happened to have read several of brother Torrey's books and writings, I find them thoughtful and informative, but they are not authoritative, they are not inspired (in the sense the Bible writers were inspired) and they still have to be compared to the Bible to see if his teachings are in line with Scripture.

                      Please let us know if you disagree with that statement I just wrote and why.

                      Now, perhaps you were trying to insinuate that your source listed for the following was R.A. Torrey?

                      For the record, that is not true, the cited source is an anonymous document that reads like several I've debunked in the Character Counts thread, a mixture of falsehoods, incorrect assumptions, made up things not taught by regular Freemasonry, out of context quoting, etc., etc., etc.

                      As for the rest of the off topic blather, well, this not anything new, although the actual point would be that duties of a Freemason are not to interfere with an individual's duties to God, family or country. It does not invalidate any of the conditions of an oath taken before God other than that case. If person A, decides that their religious duty requires them to violate their entire obligation to Freemasonry and break the oath they took in the name of their deity, then base their decision on a Jewish temple ritual (as I've seen cited as the justification) under the Law (which actually requires the Temple and a physical ceremony) and then claim to be Christian.....LOL.

                      BTW, where is your proof for the assertion that the oaths are anti-Scriptural, rash, and extrajudicial?

                      Oh, some proof that they are "legally invalid", including how you are defining that term would be nice too. Especially since one of the "indictments" (#6 to be exact), where you lifted your quote from happens to (surprise, surprise, surprise) contradict itself like so many of these types of antimasonic "teachings" do.

                      Perhaps you should read what you are citing more carefully, since after declaring them "legally invalid", the anonymous writer then chooses that Masons have refused to testify in court based on their Masonic obligations. So, which is it?

                      Oh, just to make sure you know...you need to have clear cut Biblical proof that is not based on "I, John T, or some other source say that Freemasonry is X and if Freemasonry is X, then the Bible at book/chapter/verse condemns Freemasonry and makes it a sin." This would be a fallacy, not because the statement itself would be irrational, but because your premise is incorrect.

                      After all, many Freemasons would agree that If {some made up false tale about Freemasonry}, Then {Christians should not be Freemasons}.

                      Then laugh their arses off when the accuser cannot provide any actual objective proof for the "IF" condition.

                      Gentle readers, I really don't expect a substantive answer to any of this, or even to some of the simple questions. This shows YET AGAIN, that actually answering in context and to clarify would disprove the beliefs of antimasons are actually Christian ones.

                      Just as in a similar manner, this post totally ignores the post it is supposedly replying to and goes off on YET ANOTHER useless point coming from a third party source* that reads just like the other well refuted and proven false similar screeds put out by others who claim to be Christian by being antimasons.

                      *"source" refers to the website link by the author of the post to the source of the cut & paste he used, NOT a reference to the author of the post as the "source".
                      An open mind is a good thing.
                      Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by john t View Post
                        If anyone claims to be a Christian, then it is assumed that the claimer does not treat the Bible like a Chinese buffet, taking this, but not that, Instead, the claimant is expected to take the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD into account, obeying ALL of it, and not just the cherry-picked verses, nor making attempts to make the Bible seemingly contradict itself.

                        Therefore let the weight of these verses make their impression upon those who minimize Scripture and/or resist their implications.
                        I agree with what you have written...too bad the only time I actually remember you citing a Scripture was when you were trying to deny the ability of a Christian to take an oath based entirely and only on Matthew 5:33-37, ignoring the rest of the "WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD" to do so.

                        Of course, when it was demonstrated that you not only made Paul, but you made God, both as Father and Son into sinners because they all swore oaths....and the fact that the New Testament give examples of Christians swearing oaths, that line of posts was dropped quite quickly by followers of antimasonry.

                        These are posted in no particular order:
                        .
                        Ephesians 5:12 ESV For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.
                        But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; (Ephesians 5:3)

                        Let's add a bit of reference in context, using the "WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD".

                        Which is why failure to add exposition to a Bible citation counts for nothing, one must show why whatever one is condemning is against Scripture and therefore against God.

                        Amusing that you are trying to get close to E5-11's keystone verse, especially given that not only is it proven invalid to support their antimasonry, but a number of their antimasonic documents have been proven to be non-Biblical and therefore not Christian in basis.

                        There are more verses in this passage, but in the end, it is not simply having secrets or meeting in secret that is a problem, but, in this case, certain activities done in secret that are already listed in Scripture as sins.

                        This is why I don't try to suppress posts by antimasons, because the teachings of antimasonry are something that doesn't need to be hidden in darkness, but should be brought out into the light for all Christians to see.

                        Secrecy is not, in and of itself, as you appear to imply here an actual "sin".

                        Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. (Matthew 6:1-4)

                        Here Jesus tells us that some things should be done in secret.

                        A Christian knows that nothing he does in secret will be hidden.

                        In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops. (Luke 12:1-3)

                        So, who decides whatever is done in secret (or in private) is sin or not?

                        Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)

                        Notice, GOD will judge, not men. To claim to be able to do so happens commonly among antimasons and others such as JWs and Mormons because it is one of the traits of those who make private interpretations of Scripture to justify their own non-Biblical teachings or beliefs.

                        In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Romans 2:16)

                        Again, GOD will judge, not men. The passage goes on to describe true teachers, the ones who teach not to steal, don't go around stealing, etc.

                        Which is why those who bear false witness cannot be true teachers if they go around bearing false witness.

                        Amos 3:7 ESV For the Lord God does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets.
                        Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord GOD hath spoken, who can but prophesy? (Amos 3:7-8) Underlined emphasis added.

                        Excellent!

                        So, john t, by including this verse do you now claim that you are prophet, inspired by God, with the authority of Scripture attached to your words?

                        Please, let us know if you are claiming the mantle of a prophet by citing this verse.

                        Hint: the dangers of not giving any exposition, but merely dropping references or simply putting a verse down. It gives the appearance of one who wishes to project a faux righteousness using something they don't understand but they think makes them sound pious.

                        My guess and I MUST GUESS because YOU simply plopped these verses here without any commentary on why you think they are relevant or how you think they are relevant.

                        It appears you think that if Freemasonry was approved by God, then God would have sent inspired prophets to tell everyone that Freemasonry was blessed.

                        Of course, Freemasonry does not claim to be blessed by any deity and, much more importantly, the verse in Amos is discussing about when God is doing something, not every little thing that happens in life.

                        Feel free to actually do some exposition if either of my suggestions about why you dropped this verse in here happens to be incorrect.

                        1 Thessalonians 5:22 ESVAbstain from every form of evil.
                        This is from a list of exhortations, but let's look just one verse up: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. (1 Thessalonians 5:21-22)

                        Prove all things. How are Christians supposed to "prove all things"? By applying the test of the Scriptures to whatever is in question.

                        Not our own personal test. Not one based on gossip, rumors and innuendo designed to destroy, because the Bible has quite a bit to say about those who do those things, to the point where those that do are declared by Jesus in John 8:44 to not be His followers.

                        Note, that I don't declare those that practice deception as not being Christian, the Jesus in the Bible does so.

                        One must be objective, honest and rational as a Christian, not given to hypocrisy, twisting Scripture or (mis)interpreting it in a private manner to justify one's claims.

                        Now, regarding the "appearance of evil", we can see that one in action this past week in the case of the kids from Covington high school. They are certainly being accused of at least "appearing evil", but all such accusations are false and have been demonstrated to be false.

                        Still the shrill cries that the kids, or the school, or something, somehow must "appear evil" continue with demands for apologies still ongoing.

                        From which we can see the lesson of who decides "appearance of evil", each Christian must do so. What a Christian must NOT do, as the young man at the center of the Covington high school attacks does NOT do, is submit to the whining, bullying and constant badgering of those who have decided they are the "god-appointed" deciders on what is the appearance of evil.

                        Instead, they are Pharisees trying to add their own special interpretations to the Word of God to puff themselves up to try and appear more pious.

                        James 5:12 ESV But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath, but let your “yes” be yes and your “no” be no, so that you may not fall under condemnation.
                        Remember, we are going to take the "WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD" in this thread, so we will do so, even if the post didn't.

                        This is a repeat of an already shown (mis)interpretation based on Matthew 5:33-37 used by the author of the post I'm replying to.

                        The reference here and in Matthew 5 are both to speaking of frivolous oaths. Otherwise the list of people who are guilty of this "sin" would be massive, including every servicemember, every married person and a great many others who take oaths, vows, obligations, etc.

                        I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, (Romans 9:1)

                        Oath by Paul.

                        Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. (Galatians 1:20)

                        Oath by Paul

                        For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: (Hebrews 6:13-17)

                        Oaths by God

                        But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Matthew 26:63-64)

                        Jesus put under oath by the high priest and answers knowing he is under oath.


                        So, a false teaching by antimasons....Unless, of course, they are defining God as a sinner, which presents a number of issue with anyone claiming to be Christian.


                        Deuteronomy 29:29 ESV“ The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
                        Ooookay, this is the end of the covenant shortly before Moses dies between God and the Hebrews. God has his own secrets that he doesn't reveal to us, but the things that He does reveal to us are ours for all time and through all generations.

                        How is this relevant?

                        Seriously, you need to make this connection since this one is way out in left field, even for an antimason.

                        2 Corinthians 6:14-18 ESV Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”
                        My comments on this one and its misuse in this context are listed in the very first post.

                        In fact, this is the very FIRST Scripture citation in this thread.

                        So, the correct response would have been to show from Scripture where my comments were wrong, not simply reposting the same verses like they are new.

                        You are welcome to cut & paste my comments from there down to your reply and use them.

                        That is, if you ever actually reply in a relevant manner to this post, which I personally doubt you will.

                        There are other verses saying the same sort of thing; so one cannot say, "yes, but...….." and maintain that s/he is a Bible-believing Christian. There can ONLY be one response from the Bible-believer, and that is an enthusiastic, "YES. LORD, I will obey!"
                        Certainly, but not on the basis of the unsupported Scripture you dropped in here without actually doing the, you know, "WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD" thing you wrote about on any of it. In fact, I've done it for you.

                        There is no "yes, but" because as presented, this represents what I've called it before, not an actual exposition that condemns Freemasonry. In most of what was cited here, the "YES LORD, I will obey!" would go to the ones who reject the false teachings of antimasons who claim to be Christian.

                        Going O/T a bit.

                        I'm curious though, by your sig, you are asserting that you are a Christian apologist.

                        So, what was the source of your apologetics training that ignores using the Bible until pushed to it as I did in this thread and then not using exposition to show how the Bible is relevant to the discussion/situation?

                        I've never heard of a CHRISTIAN apologetics style like that, so where did you learn?
                        An open mind is a good thing.
                        Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Never fear, antimasonic salvation is at hand.

                          The end of all these trials and tribulations.

                          The end of all your problems actually trying to understand what the Bible means in context can be yours.

                          Don't worry, I know exactly the verse that condemns Freemasonry just like antimasons who claim to be Christian want the Bible to (but never can quite manage actually proving it):

                          "Thou shalt not be a Freemason. Thou shalt not be saved by grace unless thou performest the work of leaving Freemasonry."


                          EDIT PER MOD

                          /humor
                          Last edited by 4Him; 01-27-19, 09:46 PM.
                          An open mind is a good thing.
                          Ensure that you don't open your mind so far that your brain falls out.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by kamatu View Post
                            Of course, when it was demonstrated that you not only made Paul, but you made God, both as Father and Son into sinners because they all swore oaths....and the fact that the New Testament give examples of Christians swearing oaths, that line of posts was dropped quite quickly by followers of antimasonry.
                            There is zero truth in that statement
                            .

                            Which is why failure to add exposition to a Bible citation counts for nothing, one must show why whatever one is condemning is against Scripture and therefore against God.
                            So says you, who makes up inconsistent, untrue and unnecessary "rules for interpretation"

                            Amusing that you are trying to get close to E5-11's .....
                            Irrelevant to the issue at hand.


                            This is why I don't try to suppress posts by antimasons, because the teachings of antimasonry are something that doesn't need to be hidden in darkness, but should be brought out into the light for all Christians to see.
                            No, you just attempt to destroy the plain teachings of Scripture. Nothing wrong with that, right?

                            Secrecy is not, in and of itself, as you appear to imply here an actual "sin".
                            Your RED HERRING is noted as well as dismissed

                            . But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.[/I][/COLOR] (Matthew 6:1-4)

                            Here Jesus tells us that some things should be done in secret.
                            Again a
                            RED HERRING
                            . You are simply avoiding what the Bible teaches about secret ORGANIZATIONS


                            So, john t, by including this verse do you now claim that you are prophet, inspired by God, with the authority of Scripture attached to your words?
                            Irrelevant & personal attack. I am NOT the issue; it is freemasonry

                            Please, let us know if you are claiming the mantle of a prophet by citing this verse.
                            Irrelevant & personal attack. I am NOT the issue; it is freemasonry


                            My guess and I MUST GUESS because YOU simply plopped these verses here without any commentary on why you think they are relevant or how you think they are relevant.
                            So says you, who makes up inconsistent, untrue and unnecessary "rules for interpretation"

                            It appears you think that if Freemasonry was approved by God, then God would have sent inspired prophets to tell everyone that Freemasonry was blessed.

                            Again a
                            RED HERRING

                            Of course, Freemasonry does not claim to be blessed by any deity and, much more importantly, the verse in Amos is discussing about when God is doing something, not every little thing that happens in life.

                            Again a
                            RED HERRING

                            Feel free to actually do some exposition if either of my suggestions about why you dropped this verse in here happens to be incorrect.

                            So says you, who makes up inconsistent, untrue and unnecessary "rules for interpretation"

                            Instead, they are Pharisees trying to add their own special interpretations to the Word of God to puff themselves up to try and appear more pious.
                            Insult of my motivations is noted

                            Remember, we are going to take the "WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD" in this thread, so we will do so, even if the post didn't.

                            So says you, who makes up inconsistent, untrue and unnecessary "rules for interpretation"

                            I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, (Romans 9:1)

                            Oath by Paul.
                            You are making things up that have no truth

                            Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. (Galatians 1:20)

                            Oath by Paul
                            Again, you are making things up which have no truth

                            For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: (Hebrews 6:13-17)

                            Oaths by God
                            Again, you are making things up which have no truth. You would do well to study the nature of a covenant


                            Jesus put under oath by the high priest and answers knowing he is under oath.
                            Again, you are making things up which have no truth

                            So, a false teaching by antimasons....Unless, of course, they are defining God as a sinner, which presents a number of issue with anyone claiming to be Christian.

                            This is simply blasphemy, to attack God, and to attempt tp engage Him in a game of specious logic. It tells more about your character and hatred for God than anything else


                            That is, if you ever actually reply in a relevant manner to this post, which I personally doubt you will.
                            Your trolling insult is noted

                            It is abundantly clear from this, and other poststhat you have more interest in "scoring points" and attempting to prove that God did not mean what He wrote in Scripture. Therefore further attempts at rational and respectul discussion is impossible

                            Therefore I leave you with this from Hebrews 10
                            .
                            26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God
                            ESV
                            .
                            All of the things mentioned in verse 29, you have done in your posts. That is why it is unfruitful for me, and other REAL Christians to continue with you
                            MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                            1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                            2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                            3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                            4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by john t View Post

                              There is zero truth in that statement
                              .



                              So says you, who makes up inconsistent, untrue and unnecessary "rules for interpretation"



                              Irrelevant to the issue at hand.




                              No, you just attempt to destroy the plain teachings of Scripture. Nothing wrong with that, right?


                              Your RED HERRING is noted as well as dismissed



                              Again a
                              RED HERRING
                              . You are simply avoiding what the Bible teaches about secret ORGANIZATIONS




                              Irrelevant & personal attack. I am NOT the issue; it is freemasonry



                              Irrelevant & personal attack. I am NOT the issue; it is freemasonry




                              So says you, who makes up inconsistent, untrue and unnecessary "rules for interpretation"




                              Again a
                              RED HERRING




                              Again a
                              RED HERRING




                              So says you, who makes up inconsistent, untrue and unnecessary "rules for interpretation"



                              Insult of my motivations is noted




                              So says you, who makes up inconsistent, untrue and unnecessary "rules for interpretation"



                              You are making things up that have no truth



                              Again, you are making things up which have no truth



                              Again, you are making things up which have no truth. You would do well to study the nature of a covenant




                              Again, you are making things up which have no truth




                              This is simply blasphemy, to attack God, and to attempt tp engage Him in a game of specious logic. It tells more about your character and hatred for God than anything else




                              Your trolling insult is noted

                              It is abundantly clear from this, and other poststhat you have more interest in "scoring points" and attempting to prove that God did not mean what He wrote in Scripture. Therefore further attempts at rational and respectul discussion is impossible

                              Therefore I leave you with this from Hebrews 10
                              .
                              26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God
                              ESV
                              .
                              All of the things mentioned in verse 29, you have done in your posts. That is why it is unfruitful for me, and other REAL Christians to continue with you

                              Brother Kamatu, as I've warned you a long time ago, you'll get nowhere with the antimasons on this forum.

                              You can see in the above post how he clearly avoids what you clearly pointed out and then claims you brought up a red herring!

                              All of this clearly points out what you've brought out recently, and what I told these same 2 posters years ago. They continue to arrogantly claim some form of biblical knowledge that only certain people that believe exactly as they do seem to have. Yet they have the stones to claim we're not Christians! Unbelievable!

                              I applaud your effort brother, I really do. However, it took me time to realize that the game is stacked against us. Something you've mentioned recently.

                              Comment

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