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John 1:1 A Response to the Jehovah's Witnesses

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  • Originally posted by TibiasDad View Post

    Excellent argument!

    Doug
    An excellent argument? The reason they say Jesus there is because they know him as Jesus and they did not know him as the Word.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

      Hi Nathan,

      Well, you believe that Jesus was the Word before he became flesh, don't you?

      Jesus spoke of that time in John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."

      Hebrews 13:8 tells us that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

      And then again in Revelation 19:13 "He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God."

      But if you're talking about the time when the Word became flesh and was given the name "Jesus", then I understand your point.


      Holly

      Edited to add: I'm assuming you weren't meaning to exclude all of creation that existed before the Word became flesh.
      Exactly it is when he became flesh and was given the name Jesus that I am talking about. Before that he was the Word of God and not the Son of God.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Nathan p View Post
        Exactly it is when he became flesh and was given the name Jesus that I am talking about. Before that he was the Word of God and not the Son of God.
        That view not only contradicts the Bible, it also contradicts what JWs teach. You know you're in disagreement with the WTS, right?

        If Jesus is the Son of God today, he was the same before his birth: Hebrews 13:8 tells us that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

        Are you tending more toward Unitarianism that the Word did not have a personal, conscious existence but was God's divine expression, his plan and purpose and wisdom, but not a conscious being.....not even Michael the archangel?


        Holly
        Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Nathan p View Post
          Note the bible says when he is born you will name him Jesus. Or Jesus did not exist before that. There was only God and the Word who would be named Jesus later.
          Jesus thinks he did exist before that, John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."

          Is he confused, or are you


          Holly
          Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

            Jesus thinks he did exist before that, John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."

            Is he confused, or are you


            Holly
            Of course he knew he existed before. But it was as the Word and not as Jesus or the Son of God. Again you have to document that Jesus existed before he was made flesh?And you have to document that there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Nathan p View Post
              An excellent argument? The reason they say Jesus there is because they know him as Jesus and they did not know him as the Word.
              Jesus was speaking of himself in John 17:5. He is recalling a past time when he possessed something in concert with the Father. The singular being that is known as Jesus and the Word at various points of reference is the same personal being. His identity, relative to a particular frame of time or point of reference may vary from Jesus and the Word, but it is always the same being, the same person.

              Doug
              Dare to be Gracious

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Nathan p View Post
                Of course he knew he existed before. But it was as the Word and not as Jesus or the Son of God. Again you have to document that Jesus existed before he was made flesh?And you have to document that there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh?
                We do teach that at J 3:16, when God sent His Son, it was from heaven. That does not mean human son. When Job was told at Job 38:4-7 that "all the sons of God" applauded at the creation of the physical heavens and earth, that would have included the Word of God.

                EDITED--advertising
                Last edited by Mod10; 10-10-18, 06:26 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Georg Kaplin View Post

                  We do teach that at J 3:16, when God sent His Son, it was from heaven. That does not mean human son. When Job was told at Job 38:4-7 that "all the sons of God" applauded at the creation of the physical heavens and earth, that would have included the Word of God.
                  EDITED
                  No it says he gave his Son at John 3:16 (niv). The scripture you are thinking about says he sent his Son into the world and not to the world. There is a difference between into and to.
                  Last edited by Mod10; 10-10-18, 06:27 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Nathan p View Post
                    Of course he knew he existed before. But it was as the Word and not as Jesus or the Son of God. Again you have to document that Jesus existed before he was made flesh?And you have to document that there was a Son of God before the Word became flesh?
                    You've just said he existed before he was made flesh. Aren't we saying the same thing? No one here is saying he was named Jesus before his birth, only that he existed before his birth (a personal conscious existence), and you appear to be agreeing with that.


                    Holly
                    Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                      You've just said he existed before he was made flesh. Aren't we saying the same thing? No one here is saying he was named Jesus before his birth, only that he existed before his birth (a personal conscious existence), and you appear to be agreeing with that.


                      Holly
                      But you are saying the Word was the Son of God before the Word became flesh correct? There was only a Son of God when the Word became flesh.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Nathan p View Post
                        But you are saying the Word was the Son of God before the Word became flesh correct? There was only a Son of God when the Word became flesh.
                        Only from a human perspective; to God, the Word was always his Son, for he was slain from the foundation of the world, which means that God the Father has perceived him as "the one and only Son" that would be given.


                        Doug
                        Dare to be Gracious

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TibiasDad View Post

                          Only from a human perspective; to God, the Word was always his Son, for he was slain from the foundation of the world, which means that God the Father has perceived him as "the one and only Son" that would be given.


                          Doug
                          The foundation of the world was in the beginning and thus the Son had not always been the Son.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Nathan p View Post
                            The foundation of the world was in the beginning and thus the Son had not always been the Son.
                            "In the beginning", as portrayed in John's prologue, is a point before "the beginning in Genesis". John is referring to all the time of eternity past prior to the beginning of the creative process in Genesis. The prologue is about the essential nature of the Word in his primary state of existence, not about the point of creation relative to it. It is because the Word was God in his primary essence prior to creation that he could then create "all that has been made".


                            Doug
                            Dare to be Gracious

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Nathan p View Post
                              The foundation of the world was in the beginning and thus the Son had not always been the Son.
                              Furthermore, if the the foundation of the world, or the beginning of the creation of the earth, is the point from which, in our perspective, the crucifixion was certain to happen, then God certainly knew this certainty before that point, for an omniscient God does not discover new knowledge, so the Word, in God the Father's mind, has always been known as the Son.


                              Doug
                              Dare to be Gracious

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Nathan p View Post
                                No it says he gave his Son at John 3:16 (niv). The scripture you are thinking about says he sent his Son into the world and not to the world. There is a difference between into and to.
                                I don't know if you are JW or not, but have you read the Insight book on "Sons of God?"

                                Comment

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