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Refuting WTS doctrines -Jesus Christ

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  • Refuting WTS doctrines -Jesus Christ

    Testimonies of ex-JWs in various webs confirm what is well evident ų Jesus Christ id not glorified, honoured, served or praised by the Governing Body or individual JWs.
    This is contrary to what the Bible teaches. See:-
    1) John 5v23. " That ALL may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. He who does not honour thr Son does NOT honour the Father.
    2) John 12v26 " ..... My Father will honour the one who serves me"
    3) Romans 1v9 ( the apostle Paul talking). " -God whom I serve withmy whole heart in preaching the Gospel of his SON".
    4) Colossians 3v24 ....." It is the Lord Christ you are serving".
    5) Revelation 5v12 " ........ In loud voive they sang:- Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strengh and honour and glory and praise.




  • #2
    Glad to see you, Julio. Hope all is going well for you.

    Remember this video that Thomas posted last year about the JW who praised Jesus so much his fellow JWs thought he didn't love Jehovah any more. He said he felt like he had to be a secret agent.

    Originally posted by thomas1961 View Post
    Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Julio191 View Post
      Testimonies of ex-JWs in various webs confirm what is well evident ų Jesus Christ id not glorified, honoured, served or praised by the Governing Body or individual JWs.
      This is contrary to what the Bible teaches. See:-
      1) John 5v23. " That ALL may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. He who does not honour thr Son does NOT honour the Father.
      2) John 12v26 " ..... My Father will honour the one who serves me"
      3) Romans 1v9 ( the apostle Paul talking). " -God whom I serve withmy whole heart in preaching the Gospel of his SON".
      4) Colossians 3v24 ....." It is the Lord Christ you are serving".
      5) Revelation 5v12 " ........ In loud voive they sang:- Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strengh and honour and glory and praise.


      But they do inadvertently have prayer going to Jesus:

      [w07 3/15 p. 3] John earnestly prayed: ďCome, Lord Jesus.Ē (Revelation 22:20)

      *** re chap. 44 p. 319 par. 19 Revelation and You ***
      19 Thus, with John, we fervently pray: ďAmen! Come, Lord Jesus.Ē

      Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by HollyWood View Post
        Glad to see you, Julio. Hope all is going well for you.

        Remember this video that Thomas posted last year about the JW who praised Jesus so much his fellow JWs thought he didn't love Jehovah any more. He said he felt like he had to be a secret agent.


        Hi Holly,
        I am fine. At dialysis at the moment. I bought myself a tablet so I could get into
        Internet and be able to contact with CARM.
        Will be listening to
        Thomas video in the course of my treatment here today. Thanknfings for sending it to me.
        God bless

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Julio191 View Post
          Testimonies of ex-JWs in various webs confirm what is well evident ų Jesus Christ id not glorified, honoured, served or praised by the Governing Body or individual JWs.
          This is contrary to what the Bible teaches. See:-
          1) John 5v23. " That ALL may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. He who does not honour thr Son does NOT honour the Father.
          2) John 12v26 " ..... My Father will honour the one who serves me"
          3) Romans 1v9 ( the apostle Paul talking). " -God whom I serve withmy whole heart in preaching the Gospel of his SON".
          4) Colossians 3v24 ....." It is the Lord Christ you are serving".
          5) Revelation 5v12 " ........ In loud voive they sang:- Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strengh and honour and glory and praise.




          Yes Jesus received all those things shared by his Father with him--Worship is not one of those things. The only ones on earth who are Jesus servants are those that-OBEY every teaching he gave to us.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by kjw47 View Post



            Yes Jesus received all those things shared by his Father with him--Worship is not one of those things. The only ones on earth who are Jesus servants are those that-OBEY every teaching he gave to us.
            I doubt it very much that you can possibly be at the same level as any born again
            christian, mainly because the WTS does not reach that spiritual level.
            Apart from that your knowledge of New Testament theology is evidently scarce, otherwise you would not make the type of comments you make.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Julio191 View Post
              Hi Holly,
              I am fine. At dialysis at the moment. I bought myself a tablet so I could get into
              Internet and be able to contact with CARM.
              Will be listening to
              Thomas video in the course of my treatment here today. Thanknfings for sending it to me.
              God bless
              Thank you, Julio. Your posts are appreciated very much. We are blessed to have you here. I pray God richly blesses and comforts you.

              You're so right about the lack of spiritual level among JWs. Moggy always calls them Watchtower Followers and that is truly what they are. They claim to obey Jesus' every command yet when he says to "Take, eat, this is my body" they don't obey him, they obey the WTS leaders who tell them not to obey Jesus.

              It's been since 1954 that they've rejected worshipping Jesus with the same worship they were giving to Almighty God. Their founder, C.T. Russell, had worship of Jesus written into the charter of the WTBTS as one of its purposes. When the 1954 WTS leadership decided JWs had been guilty of idolatry for all those years by worshiping Jesus, they took it out of their corporate charter.
              Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                It's been since 1954 that they've rejected worshipping Jesus with the same worship they were giving to Almighty God. Their founder, C.T. Russell, had worship of Jesus written into the charter of the WTBTS as one of its purposes. When the 1954 WTS leadership decided JWs had been guilty of idolatry for all those years by worshiping Jesus, they took it out of their corporate charter.
                But not the same kind of worship, not the worship of that which should be directed to God only but worship, relative worship of His Son. The English word had the same broad meaning as the Greek PROSKYNEO which the latter was used for others other than Jehovah and rightly so. But the English word now is more restricted. Yet another instance of you reading into something that that something does not really contain and hence the error you naively make. Perhaps though not naively but on purpose because you have been alerted to your misleading error several times now but you continually make it. Your comment here then is inexcusable.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                  But they do inadvertently have prayer going to Jesus:

                  [w07 3/15 p. 3] John earnestly prayed: “Come, Lord Jesus.” (Revelation 22:20)

                  *** re chap. 44 p. 319 par. 19 Revelation and You ***
                  19 Thus, with John, we fervently pray: “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.”
                  You are wrong as it was not a prayer to, not in direct address to the Lord Jesus but a translation of a Greek ejaculation. Compare Paul at 1 Corinthians 16.22. One can of course include this hope in prayer to God the Father who Paul says is the one we should direct our prayers to in everything. Philippians 4.6.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                    When the 1954 WTS leadership decided JWs had been guilty of idolatry for all those years by worshiping Jesus, they took it out of their corporate charter.
                    A plain simple fabrication.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by kjw47 View Post



                      Yes Jesus received all those things shared by his Father with him--Worship is not one of those things. The only ones on earth who are Jesus servants are those that-OBEY every teaching he gave to us.
                      The founder of your religion believed worshipping Jesus was one of the WTS' purposes, for he wrote it into its charter: "for public Christian worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus". There's an online scan of this, and also you can find it in the 1945 yearbook (which is what the scan shows.) https://jwfacts.com/images/watchtowe...45-page-32.jpg

                      It was not until 1999 that worship of Jesus was finally removed to simply state "arrange for and hold assemblies for religious worship," taking with it the worship of Almighty God as well.
                      Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by kjw47 View Post

                        Yes Jesus received all those things shared by his Father with him--Worship is not one of those things. The only ones on earth who are Jesus servants are those that-OBEY every teaching he gave to us.
                        Russell's worship of Jesus was based on his belief that Jesus was God:

                        "It seems clear that His Divinity was retained in humanity because He repeatedly spoke of Himself as having come down from heaven, and because He, though passing through trial and sorrow as a man, was yet possessed of the authority and exercised the prerogatives of a God. He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born King. Matt. 2:2-11. Even the angels delighted to do Him honor. "When He bringeth the first-begotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." Heb. 1:6. He never reproved any one for acts of worship offered to Himself, but when Cornelius offered such service to Peter--the leading apostle-- "he took him up, saying, stand up; I myself also am a man." .... Had Christ not been more than a man the same reason would have prevented from receiving worship...." Zion's Watch Tower 1880 Oct pp.2-3

                        Nor did Russell consider worship of Jesus as what any ordinary person of high rank would be accorded:

                        "In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles....They worshiped him in three senses of the word: (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence. (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence. (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience." Zion's Watch Tower 1906 Jan 1 p.15

                        Russell also believed Jesus should be prayed to:

                        "It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate, who loved us and gave himself for us....Although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him, it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshiped him." Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157

                        Your next president of the WTS (Rutherford) also held Russell's beliefs about worshiping Jesus:

                        "Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower November 15, 1939 p. 339.

                        "During the Millennium, "the princes will lead the people in their worship of Jehovah and of Christ." Vindication Volume 3 (J. F. Rutherford, 1932) p.295

                        "The people of all nations who obtain salvation must come to the house of the Lord to worship there; that is to say, they must believe on and worship Jehovah God and the Lord Jesus Christ, his chief instrument (Philippians 2:10, 11)." Salvation (J. F. Rutherford, 1939) p.151

                        As did Knorr:

                        "Now, at Christ's coming to reign as king in Jehovah's capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy." Watchtower 1945 Oct 15 p.313

                        Then in the 1950s to coincide with their own translation of the Bible, worshiping Jesus was changed to "merely bowing or doing obeisance to a person out of deep respect." [w54 1/1 p.30]

                        JWs today are to consider the reverent adoration they gave Jesus for all those decades was a form of idolatry---worshiping a mere man who was supposed to be shown only deep respect.:

                        Yes, reverent adoration should be expressed only to God. To render worship to anyone or anything else would be a form of idolatry, which is condemned in both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures......Accordingly, true Christians do well to direct their worship only to Jehovah God, the Almighty. Awake! 2000 Apr 8 pp.26,27
                        Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                          Russell's worship of Jesus was based on his belief that Jesus was God:

                          "It seems clear that His Divinity was retained in humanity because He repeatedly spoke of Himself as having come down from heaven, and because He, though passing through trial and sorrow as a man, was yet possessed of the authority and exercised the prerogatives of a God. He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born King. Matt. 2:2-11. Even the angels delighted to do Him honor. "When He bringeth the first-begotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." Heb. 1:6. He never reproved any one for acts of worship offered to Himself, but when Cornelius offered such service to Peter--the leading apostle-- "he took him up, saying, stand up; I myself also am a man." .... Had Christ not been more than a man the same reason would have prevented from receiving worship...." Zion's Watch Tower 1880 Oct pp.2-3

                          Nor did Russell consider worship of Jesus as what any ordinary person of high rank would be accorded:

                          "In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles....They worshiped him in three senses of the word: (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence. (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence. (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience." Zion's Watch Tower 1906 Jan 1 p.15

                          Russell also believed Jesus should be prayed to:

                          "It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate, who loved us and gave himself for us....Although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him, it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshiped him." Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157

                          Your next president of the WTS (Rutherford) also held Russell's beliefs about worshiping Jesus:

                          "Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower November 15, 1939 p. 339.

                          "During the Millennium, "the princes will lead the people in their worship of Jehovah and of Christ." Vindication Volume 3 (J. F. Rutherford, 1932) p.295

                          "The people of all nations who obtain salvation must come to the house of the Lord to worship there; that is to say, they must believe on and worship Jehovah God and the Lord Jesus Christ, his chief instrument (Philippians 2:10, 11)." Salvation (J. F. Rutherford, 1939) p.151

                          As did Knorr:

                          "Now, at Christ's coming to reign as king in Jehovah's capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy." Watchtower 1945 Oct 15 p.313

                          Then in the 1950s to coincide with their own translation of the Bible, worshiping Jesus was changed to "merely bowing or doing obeisance to a person out of deep respect." [w54 1/1 p.30]

                          JWs today are to consider the reverent adoration they gave Jesus for all those decades was a form of idolatry---worshiping a mere man who was supposed to be shown only deep respect.:

                          Yes, reverent adoration should be expressed only to God. To render worship to anyone or anything else would be a form of idolatry, which is condemned in both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures......Accordingly, true Christians do well to direct their worship only to Jehovah God, the Almighty. Awake! 2000 Apr 8 pp.26,27
                          There is nothing in all those quotes that show the Witnesses "worshipped" Jesus as being "God." So, when you state "Russell's worship of Jesus was based on his belief that Jesus was God" that is untrue. In those quotes there are express statements and comments that Jehovah God and Jesus, the Christ are two separate and distinct beings. And it appears you are still labouring under the delusion that the English word "worship" meant worship of one that is God only. That is not so as the English word decades ago had a broader meaning than it perhaps has today. And the Greek word PROSKYNEO also, and was used by the NT authors for God as well as those who were not without any conflict with the worship of One God only. It is not the word Hollywood that matters but what they meant by it and what is in the heart and mind of the one who worships. These basic truths you have not a clue of and your copy and pasting this is simply another case of someone who has pulled the wool over your eyes. But this is not the first time by a long shot. Most recently we found you willingly being duped by a one Dr Vickers, (see here readers, beginning at the start. https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...ah-s-witnesses )

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Julio191 View Post

                            I doubt it very much that you can possibly be at the same level as any born again
                            christian, mainly because the WTS does not reach that spiritual level.
                            Apart from that your knowledge of New Testament theology is evidently scarce, otherwise you would not make the type of comments you make.
                            It's not only NT theology JWs are lacking in, they don't appear to know their own WTS beliefs. That's what comes of not being led by the Holy Spirit.

                            Were they to ever reason on it, they'd see that if the worship they intended toward Jesus was okay and didn't mean he was God, why would they feel it necessary to take worship of Jesus out of the WTS charter.....along with worship of Almighty God, a worship they did not designate as being worship in the one case and merely deep respect in the other. If their worship of Jesus was seen by them as merely deep respect and not reverent adoration, why even tell them it was not okay to worship Jesus? [see QFR 1/1/1954 p.30]
                            Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                              It's not only NT theology JWs are lacking in, they don't appear to know their own WTS beliefs. That's what comes of not being led by the Holy Spirit.

                              Were they to ever reason on it, they'd see that if the worship they intended toward Jesus was okay and didn't mean he was God, why would they feel it necessary to take worship of Jesus out of the WTS charter.....along with worship of Almighty God, a worship they did not designate as being worship in the one case and merely deep respect in the other. If their worship of Jesus was seen by them as merely deep respect and not reverent adoration, why even tell them it was not okay to worship Jesus? [see QFR 1/1/1954 p.30]
                              Once again you have failed to see that it matters not what word one uses but what is in the heart and mind of the worshipper which determines what kind and what for such "worship" is given. If there was a change in what words one uses this would not matter at all except to be more nuanced or precise. Just as the Greek word PROSKYNEO was used for worship of God, it, the very same word, could be used to describe what was given, rightly, to those who were not God. Hence it can be translated the same way as "worship"(common Bibles in Russell's time and beyond tended to use the one word, "worship" even when the subjects were not God) or at times differently, if a translator wished to(as more modern translations do) depending on who the subject is that receives it, so that it matters not a jot that those quotes said what they did in the way they did. One only has to look at what they did say to see that the "worship" given to Jehovah and that given to Jesus, the Christ was different because of who they were. Clearly, even from the quotes you copied and pasted from Grundy's web page not once do we find your false statement that Russell believed that Jesus was "God." Yes, like Dr Vickers so also Grundy. They have pulled the wool over your eyes. But I feel that is because you are not critical of their words but gulp them down simply because they fit your agenda of being anti-JW come what may and such little things like facts won't change your way of thinking. .
                              Last edited by barneyman3; 07-11-17, 03:03 AM.

                              Comment

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