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Refuting WTS doctrines - Jesus Christ bodily resurrection

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  • Refuting WTS doctrines - Jesus Christ bodily resurrection

    The WTS teaches that Jesus Christ resurrected as a " spirit", NOT in his physical
    body.
    The Bible says:- " If Christ has not been raised our preaching is useless and so is your faith " ( 1 Corinthians 15v14).
    What does the Bible say?
    Matthew 28v17- 18. " When they SAW him they worshipped him. Then Jesus
    SAID.......
    Luke 24v15-30 on the road to Emmaus:-
    - Jesus WALKED along with them v 15
    - Jesus SPOKE to them v 17
    - Jesus EXPLAINED to them what had to happen v 25-27
    - Jesus STAYED the night with both disciples v 29
    - Jesus SAT at the table with them and ATE v 30.
    John 20 v 16-29
    - Jesus SPEAKS to Mary of Magdala v 16-17
    - Jesus APPEARS to his disciples, SPOKE with them, and SHOWED them his hands and side v 19-20.
    - Thomas put his fingers in Jesus hands and side v 26 - 29.
    John 21 v1- 17 By the sea of Tiberias.
    - His disciples RECOGNISED it was Jesus v 7
    - Jesus had BREAKFAST with his disciples v 12
    - Jesus has a CONVERSATION with Peter v 15- 17
    Acts 1v3 Jesus GAVE many proofs that he was ALIVE.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Julio191 View Post
    The WTS teaches that Jesus Christ resurrected as a " spirit", NOT in his physical
    body.
    The Bible says:- " If Christ has not been raised our preaching is useless and so is your faith " ( 1 Corinthians 15v14).
    What does the Bible say?
    Matthew 28v17- 18. " When they SAW him they worshipped him. Then Jesus
    SAID.......
    Luke 24v15-30 on the road to Emmaus:-
    - Jesus WALKED along with them v 15
    - Jesus SPOKE to them v 17
    - Jesus EXPLAINED to them what had to happen v 25-27
    - Jesus STAYED the night with both disciples v 29
    - Jesus SAT at the table with them and ATE v 30.
    John 20 v 16-29
    - Jesus SPEAKS to Mary of Magdala v 16-17
    - Jesus APPEARS to his disciples, SPOKE with them, and SHOWED them his hands and side v 19-20.
    - Thomas put his fingers in Jesus hands and side v 26 - 29.
    John 21 v1- 17 By the sea of Tiberias.
    - His disciples RECOGNISED it was Jesus v 7
    - Jesus had BREAKFAST with his disciples v 12
    - Jesus has a CONVERSATION with Peter v 15- 17
    Acts 1v3 Jesus GAVE many proofs that he was ALIVE.
    None of those scriptures show that Jesus was not then a spirit. They show he made Himself manifest certainly and in a physical body then cold be felt, eat food. Humans can not see spirits with their puny limited eyes unless they made themselves physically manifest in some way or other. That Jesus is now a spirit read 1 Corinthians 15. 45.

    That Jesus now is no longer made of dust, which all earthly bodies are, read 1 Corinthians 15.35ff.

    It is a spirit body because that was exactly what the apostle Paul was speaking of at 1 Corinthians 15.35ff. In 1 Corinthians 15.44-49. Paul writes there is a physical body and there is a spiritual body. Does the latter retain anything of the first? Not according to Paul it doesn't. For Jesus is now a "life giving spirit." Does a spirit have flesh?(See also Jesus' word at Luke 24.39) No, as Paul draws on the first man Adam, the "first man." Paul says this one is "out of the earth and made of dust." Jesus resurrection body is not "out of the earth and made of dust." Adam was but Jesus as a spirit no longer. He is now "out of heaven" and there never has been a fleshy body there. There is no mixing of the two here. So, when Paul speaks of being "clothed" with immortality it does not mean the physical body is resurrected and so clothed but the person is given in the resurrection a "body" just as God is pleased to give(see v.38.) and this is the body that will be immortal. In 2 Corinthians 5.1ff Paul clearly shows how one obtains immortality. In verse 1 he knew that their "earthly house, this tent," that is, their earthly physical bodies will be "dissolved."(v.1). Then they are to have a "building from God, a house not made with hands." This body is another body. It is "not made with hands," that is, it is not physical. See Hebrews 9.11. Paul says they yearn to "put on the one from heaven.." The Christians when in their physical bodies are absent from the Lord.(v.6) But they would rather be "absent from the body[their present physical body] and be with the Lord.(v.8) However, you believe differently. You would have Jesus' earthly body, made out of dust, resurrected. You disagree with Paul then as the spiritual body that Jesus has now is not. You disagree that the physical body will be dissolved and the Christians, as did Jesus, receive another body, one "not made with hands," not physical.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Julio191 View Post
      The WTS teaches that Jesus Christ resurrected as a " spirit", NOT in his physical
      body.
      The Bible says:- " If Christ has not been raised our preaching is useless and so is your faith " ( 1 Corinthians 15v14).
      What does the Bible say?
      Matthew 28v17- 18. " When they SAW him they worshipped him. Then Jesus
      SAID.......
      Luke 24v15-30 on the road to Emmaus:-
      - Jesus WALKED along with them v 15
      - Jesus SPOKE to them v 17
      - Jesus EXPLAINED to them what had to happen v 25-27
      - Jesus STAYED the night with both disciples v 29
      - Jesus SAT at the table with them and ATE v 30.
      John 20 v 16-29
      - Jesus SPEAKS to Mary of Magdala v 16-17
      - Jesus APPEARS to his disciples, SPOKE with them, and SHOWED them his hands and side v 19-20.
      - Thomas put his fingers in Jesus hands and side v 26 - 29.
      John 21 v1- 17 By the sea of Tiberias.
      - His disciples RECOGNISED it was Jesus v 7
      - Jesus had BREAKFAST with his disciples v 12
      - Jesus has a CONVERSATION with Peter v 15- 17
      Acts 1v3 Jesus GAVE many proofs that he was ALIVE.
      Excellent scriptures, Julio.

      If we were to ask a JW what of Jesus survived the death of his body, they would say nothing did. They would say, "When a person dies, he ceases to exist."

      Even though scriptures is adamant that Jesus' body did not see corruption, they say it did, dissolving as all physical bodies do back into the atoms and elements it is made of; they say his spirit was an impersonal life force like energy or electricity; and they say his soul was not something that can exist apart from the body---in their words, his soul was him with all his physical and mental qualities.

      They also put Jesus in the position of being deceptive because when he showed them his hands and his feet and his side, and invited Thomas to touch the scars in them, according to JWs it was not really the hands and feet that had been pierced with nails nor the side that was pierced with a sword. No, JWs say Jesus faked those scars by quickly creating a physical body that included scars on the hands, feet, and side.

      When Jesus said, "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” JWs insist that he was a spirit---a spirit that had quickly created a scarred body to show them.

      I'm glad you shared 1 Cor. 15:14 because by JWs denying the resurrection of Jesus, their preaching is useless and so is their faith (being that their faith is in the WTS and not in Jesus.)
      Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

        Excellent scriptures, Julio.

        If we were to ask a JW what of Jesus survived the death of his body, they would say nothing did. They would say, "When a person dies, he ceases to exist."
        That is exactly what the Scriptures teach. Let me remind you:

        At Genesis 2.7 we see that at Adam's creation he became "a living soul." He became a living soul when God breathed into his nostrils the "breath of life." So, a "living soul" is a body plus this breath of life. The Hebrew word nephesh the NWT renders consistently as "soul" basically means "a breather." But Adam disobeyed. What did that mean for Adam? The death of his body and his soul survives? But that can not be as Adam was a soul. So would death for Adam be the death of a soul? Yes. At Genesis 3.19 Jehovah told Adam "you[Adam, this "living soul"] will return to the ground, since from it you[Adam, this "living soul"] were taken; for dust you[Adam, this "living soul"] are and dust you[Adam, this "living soul"] will return." Is Jehovah speaking about the destruction of Adam's body only and not some immaterial soul that can continue to think and survive the destruction of a body? If so Jehovah is completely silent about that. No, Jehovah address Adam, this "living soul." Adam as a soul will suffer this fate. He will be a dead soul. By definition a dead soul no longer exists. Adam, the "living soul" no longer exists. And that is exactly what we read is the fate of Adam, this "living soul." But if you hold that there is a "soul" that survives the death of the body you would have Adam not suffer the fate that Jehovah said he would and so you will have to think it was the serpent was telling the truth to Eve that even if she did disobey God she "will surely not die."-Genesis 3.4. But both Adam and Eve did. They no longer exist. The whole bible is consistent with that, that the nephesh/PSYKHE is either the person itself or the life of that person and it does not survive the death of the body."

        It, the nephesh is something that can be preserved or killed(die),Genesis 19.19, 20; it is something that can be struck fatally, Genesis 37.21; it is something that can die, Joshua 2.13; it is something that can be destroyed, Joshua 10.28; it is something that can be struck by the sword(and die), Joshua 10.30; it is something that can be looked for and taken away from its owner, 1 Kings 19.14; it is something that can suffer suffocation and die, Job 7.15; it is something that can be torn to pieces, Psalms 7.2; it is something that can be placed in a pit, Jeremiah 18.20; it is something that can be devoured, Ezekiel 22.25; it[PSYKHE] is something that can be "killed", Mark 3.4; it is something that can be saved from "death", James 5.20.
        Now, the scriptures do clearly show that this nephesh, PSYKHE does indeed die when the person dies.



        The KJV is often inconsistent with its translation of nephesh('soul'). This is important because not only are human beings called by the Hebrew word nephesh. A Professor of OT Langauges, Professor Snaith in discussing Genesis 2.7 says:

        "The Authorized Version translated this phrase 'living soul', but when exactly the same phrase is used in verse 29 of animals and birds, the translation is 'living creature'. Such conduct is most reprehensible, and it is a grave reflection on the Revisers that they retained this misleading difference in translation.....The Hebrew phrase should be translated exactly the same way in both cases. To do otherwise is to mislead all those who do not read Hebrew. There is no excuse and no proper defence. The tendency to read 'immortal soul' into the Hebrew nephesh and translate accordingly is very ancient."- Justice and Immortality, SJT, 17(1964), pp.312,313.

        Agreeing with that is a Professor Bailey:

        "Some readers may recall that the KJV(and other versions) describes 'the man' as a 'living soul' (Gen.2.7) but the other animals as 'moving creatures' (1.20) or as 'living creatures'(1.24). However, the same Hebrew word is used in both places (nephesh hayyah), and thus the KJV, under the influence of later anthropological views introduces a distinction which the Genesis writer never intended."-Biblical Perspectives on Death, 1979, Philadelphia, Fortress Press, 45.

        Professor Snaith went on to say:

        "[nephesh]..Neither word means an 'immortal soul' after the Platonic style. If 'nephesh' is ever used for an individual after death, then it means a dead body and by no means anything alive."

        W. Emslie in How Come Our Faith(1940, London, Collins, p.145) writes about the OT view:

        "When a man dies, what happens? Obviously, for the Hebrew thought his nephesh no longer exists; for that word signified only the Being caused by the coexistence of animating breath with flesh, bones and blood."

        So, for the Hebrews, humans were the same as other animals as all were 'nephesh hayyah' or "living souls." If a 'soul' or nephesh was not mortal then the Hebrew word hayyah "living" would be redundant as a soul could not be anything else! Tie this in with the above and one can immediately see that this is a scriptural truth: All breathing creatures are mortal and when dying no 'immortal part' or 'soul' survives.


        I'm glad you shared 1 Cor. 15:14 because by JWs denying the resurrection of Jesus, their preaching is useless and so is their faith (being that their faith is in the WTS and not in Jesus.)
        Jesus was resurrected but no longer with a weak fleshly body(which he sacrificed hence would not take back. See below) but the same as all those who reside in the heavens have, a spirit, non-fleshly, not an earthly, made of dust body. It is a spirit body because that was exactly what the apostle Paul was speaking of at 1 Corinthians 15.35ff. In 1 Corinthians 15.44-49. Paul writes there is a physical body and there is a spiritual body. Does the latter retain anything of the first? Not according to Paul it doesn't. For Jesus is now a "life giving spirit." Does a spirit have flesh?(See also Jesus' word at Luke 24.39) No, as Paul draws on the first man Adam, the "first man." Paul says this one is "out of the earth and made of dust." Jesus resurrection body is not "out of the earth and made of dust." Adam was but Jesus as a spirit no longer. He is now "out of heaven" and there never has been a fleshy body there. There is no mixing of the two here. So, when Paul speaks of being "clothed" with immortality it does not mean the physical body is resurrected and so clothed but the person is given in the resurrection a "body" just as God is pleased to give(see v.38.) and this is the body that will be immortal. In 2 Corinthians 5.1ff Paul clearly shows how one obtains immortality. In verse 1 he knew that their "earthly house, this tent," that is, their earthly physical bodies will be "dissolved."(v.1). Then they are to have a "building from God, a house not made with hands." This body is another body. It is "not made with hands," that is, it is not physical. See Hebrews 9.11. Paul says they yearn to "put on the one from heaven.." The Christians when in their physical bodies are absent from the Lord.(v.6) But they would rather be "absent from the body[their present physical body] and be with the Lord.(v.8) However, you believe differently. You would have Jesus' earthly body, made out of dust, resurrected. You disagree with Paul then as the spiritual body that Jesus has now is not. You disagree that the physical body will be dissolved and the Christians, as did Jesus, receive another body, one "not made with hands," not physical.

        That Jesus could not take his earthly body back again in the resurrection the following shows:

        Hebrews 10.1 tells us the Law was a "shadow of the things to come."(Compare Hebrews 8.5) The Atonement Day sacrifices pictured what Jesus Himself would do. Sacrifice his body as a "burnt" and "sin" offering. See Hebrews 10.5-10. Yes, Jesus sacrificed his earthly body. Now, those sacrifices according to the Law was not taken back by the one who offered them and the whole sacrifice would be offered, no part of the animal would remain over. This foreshadowed what Jesus would do by the offering of his body. This means that if Jesus earthly fleshly body had been resurrected and he now has it he did not sacrifice it and means the sacrifices on Atonement Day do not foreshadow Jesus' sacrifice. Hebrews 13.11 also shows that like those animals whose bodies were burnt up then likewise Jesus'. So yes, Hebrews 10.1f and 13.11 do show that Jesus could not take back his body of flesh which he gave on behalf of the world.(John 6. 51)





        Comment


        • #5
          Holly:Even though scriptures is adamant that Jesus' body did not see corruption, they say it did, dissolving as all physical bodies do back into the atoms and elements it is made of..
          It did not see corruption because just as the Atonement sacrifices where burnt up so likewise what they prefigured, the atoning sacrifice of Jesus body. Remember.:

          Hebrews 10.1 tells us the Law was a "shadow of the things to come."(Compare Hebrews 8.5) The Atonement Day sacrifices pictured what Jesus Himself would do. Sacrifice his body as a "burnt" and "sin" offering. See Hebrews 10.5-10. Yes, Jesus sacrificed his earthly body. Now, those sacrifices according to the Law was not taken back by the one who offered them and the whole sacrifice would be offered, no part of the animal would remain over. This foreshadowed what Jesus would do by the offering of his body. This means that if Jesus earthly fleshly body had been resurrected and he now has it he did not sacrifice it and means the sacrifices on Atonement Day do not foreshadow Jesus' sacrifice. Hebrews 13.11 also shows that like those animals whose bodies were burnt up then likewise Jesus'. So yes, Hebrews 10.1f and 13.11 do show that Jesus could not take back his body of flesh which he gave on behalf of the world.(John 6. 51)

          We can see this is confirmed by closely looking at Acts 2.29-32. We read there that "David" was both "deceased and was buried" and that his tomb was in existence then. Please note it is said that "David" not just David's body that was "buried." This indicates that when the body dies it is the person who ceases to live and not only the body as if the person, the 'soul' continues to exist. So, the point here is that David did not survive his death and his body slowly decayed, it suffered corruption. There was his tomb to show this. Would this happen to Jesus' body? No, for not only did Jesus die and yet be resurrected but also his body would not suffer or see "corruption." The context determines what this means. As David's body was buried and his tomb still existed, with the decayed remains, Jesus' body of flesh would not see this corruption. Or as the New American Standard puts it, "nor did his flesh suffer decay". See preceding paragraph about what happened to his body of flesh which was a sacrifice.
          And as for bodies of flesh being "dissolved" one only need to go to Paul at 2 Corinthians 5.1. Note there too that in the resurrection the apostle expected to receive another body, a different one, "not made with hands." That is, not physical, not earthly, not made with dust. That earthly, physical one gets to be "dissolved" or "demolished"(Barclay's translation)

          Note that one is "buried" in Hades and hence is a place in the ground that all who die go.
          Last edited by barneyman3; 07-01-17, 10:06 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by barneyman3 View Post

            It did not see corruption because just as the Atonement sacrifices where burnt up so likewise what they prefigured, the atoning sacrifice of Jesus body. Remember.:

            Hebrews 10.1 tells us the Law was a "shadow of the things to come."(Compare Hebrews 8.5) The Atonement Day sacrifices pictured what Jesus Himself would do. Sacrifice his body as a "burnt" and "sin" offering. See Hebrews 10.5-10. Yes, Jesus sacrificed his earthly body. Now, those sacrifices according to the Law was not taken back by the one who offered them and the whole sacrifice would be offered, no part of the animal would remain over. This foreshadowed what Jesus would do by the offering of his body. This means that if Jesus earthly fleshly body had been resurrected and he now has it he did not sacrifice it and means the sacrifices on Atonement Day do not foreshadow Jesus' sacrifice. Hebrews 13.11 also shows that like those animals whose bodies were burnt up then likewise Jesus'. So yes, Hebrews 10.1f and 13.11 do show that Jesus could not take back his body of flesh which he gave on behalf of the world.(John 6. 51)

            We can see this is confirmed by closely looking at Acts 2.29-32. We read there that "David" was both "deceased and was buried" and that his tomb was in existence then. Please note it is said that "David" not just David's body that was "buried." This indicates that when the body dies it is the person who ceases to live and not only the body as if the person, the 'soul' continues to exist. So, the point here is that David did not survive his death and his body slowly decayed, it suffered corruption. There was his tomb to show this. Would this happen to Jesus' body? No, for not only did Jesus die and yet be resurrected but also his body would not suffer or see "corruption." The context determines what this means. As David's body was buried and his tomb still existed, with the decayed remains, Jesus' body of flesh would not see this corruption. Or as the New American Standard puts it, "nor did his flesh suffer decay". See preceding paragraph about what happened to his body of flesh which was a sacrifice.
            And as for bodies of flesh being "dissolved" one only need to go to Paul at 2 Corinthians 5.1. Note there too that in the resurrection the apostle expected to receive another body, a different one, "not made with hands." That is, not physical, not earthly, not made with dust. That earthly, physical one gets to be "dissolved" or "demolished"(Barclay's translation)

            Note that one is "buried" in Hades and hence is a place in the ground that all who die go.
            I prefer to believe what Scripture has to say and what Jesus himself said.
            Paul believed in a risen Christ. The apostles believed it too. They all preached a risen Saviour.
            In Acts 1v3, a testimony by Luke, says:-" Jesus gave many proofs that he was
            ALIVE
            If Jesus had not risen then the Bible is deceiving, my faith is useless, and so is my hope.
            You are free to think what you like, but all true christians believe in Jesus bodily resurrection because that is what the Bible reveals.
            Knowing who Jesus is, why is it so impossible that he lived after dying?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Julio191 View Post

              I prefer to believe what Scripture has to say and what Jesus himself said.
              If what I wrote disagreed with Scripture then the onus is on you to show how.

              Paul believed in a risen Christ. The apostles believed it too. They all preached a risen Saviour.
              Nothing I wrote says differently. So, have you misunderstand what you read? But how could you as it was simple to follow and understand

              In Acts 1v3, a testimony by Luke, says:-" Jesus gave many proofs that he was
              ALIVE
              Nothing I wrote denied this so why the need to say this?

              If Jesus had not risen then the Bible is deceiving, my faith is useless, and so is my hope.
              Nothing I wrote and you read denied this so why the need to say this?

              You are free to think what you like, but all true christians believe in Jesus bodily resurrection because that is what the Bible reveals.
              If you disagree with what I believe the Scriptures to teach in this matter why not show why and how you think I wrote unscriptually. Over to you then. Or have you nothing but assertions to make?

              Knowing who Jesus is, why is it so impossible that he lived after dying?
              Then if he did he did not die! But he did die and was resurrected on the third day....on that day he lived again.
              Last edited by barneyman3; 07-03-17, 12:49 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Julio191 View Post

                I prefer to believe what Scripture has to say and what Jesus himself said.
                Paul believed in a risen Christ. The apostles believed it too. They all preached a risen Saviour.
                In Acts 1v3, a testimony by Luke, says:-" Jesus gave many proofs that he was
                ALIVE
                If Jesus had not risen then the Bible is deceiving, my faith is useless, and so is my hope.
                You are free to think what you like, but all true christians believe in Jesus bodily resurrection because that is what the Bible reveals.
                Knowing who Jesus is, why is it so impossible that he lived after dying?
                Exactly, Julio. JWs have to keep trying to prop up WTS falsehoods no matter what----they would even rather regard the Bible as lying rather than their leaders in the WTS.
                Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                  Exactly, Julio. JWs have to keep trying to prop up WTS falsehoods no matter what----they would even rather regard the Bible as lying rather than their leaders in the WTS.
                  Don't think you should charge anyone with "falsehoods" and "lying" HollyWood since you were duped by the 'falsehoods' of Dr Vickers and you yourself change the Word of God to "prop" up your own beliefs(For example, your saying the "stars of heaven" of Revelation 6.13 are meteorites)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Julio191 View Post
                    The WTS teaches that Jesus Christ resurrected as a " spirit", NOT in his physical
                    body.
                    The Bible says:- " If Christ has not been raised our preaching is useless and so is your faith " ( 1 Corinthians 15v14).
                    What does the Bible say?
                    Matthew 28v17- 18. " When they SAW him they worshipped him. Then Jesus
                    SAID.......
                    Luke 24v15-30 on the road to Emmaus:-
                    - Jesus WALKED along with them v 15
                    - Jesus SPOKE to them v 17
                    - Jesus EXPLAINED to them what had to happen v 25-27
                    - Jesus STAYED the night with both disciples v 29
                    - Jesus SAT at the table with them and ATE v 30.
                    John 20 v 16-29
                    - Jesus SPEAKS to Mary of Magdala v 16-17
                    - Jesus APPEARS to his disciples, SPOKE with them, and SHOWED them his hands and side v 19-20.
                    - Thomas put his fingers in Jesus hands and side v 26 - 29.
                    John 21 v1- 17 By the sea of Tiberias.
                    - His disciples RECOGNISED it was Jesus v 7
                    - Jesus had BREAKFAST with his disciples v 12
                    - Jesus has a CONVERSATION with Peter v 15- 17
                    Acts 1v3 Jesus GAVE many proofs that he was ALIVE.
                    Hi Julio,

                    Here's the documentation I referred to about how the WTS says Jesus' body saw corruption even though the Bible is clear that it did not:

                    They used to say his body was dissolved into gases. And at one time they believed it was preserved, dead, for display during the Millennium.....I guess like a mummy.

                    Their current belief is that God disposed of it, disintegrating it back into the elements and atoms human bodies are made of----which they also describe as being the corruption the Bible says did not happen to Jesus' body.

                    Watch Tower view of corruption:

                    Awake! July 22, 1979 Life After Death—A Sure Hope p.15 God can restore to life a person whose body was putrefying, as he did with Lazarus, or, if one’s body has completely disintegrated, he can re-create an entirely new one and restore life to the person.

                    Watchtower January 1, 2009 Do You Fear The Dead? p.11 Jehovah was the first to speak of death. He warned that Adam and Eve would die if they disobeyed him. (Genesis 2:17) What did that mean? Jehovah explained: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) At death the body disintegrates; it goes back to the dust. Life ceases.

                    Watchtower June 1, 1959 pp.346-347 Only those will experience a resurrection from the dead who either have proved themselves keepers of integrity or at least had a leaning toward righteousness but who because of ignorance did not serve God and therefore are termed the “unrighteous.”—Acts 24:15.
                    What will be resurrected? The body? No, for it has disintegrated and its atoms have become parts of other living things, which, in turn, may have become part of other living creatures.

                    Watchtower September 1, 1952 p.518 Moses’ body returned to the dust by process of decay, as all human bodies do, but not so in Jesus’ case, for it is written: “For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption.” (Ps. 16:10, AS; Acts 2:31) So God caused Jesus’ body to disappear, but not corrupt, meaning that it was dissolved, disintegrated back into the elements from which all human bodies are made.—John 20:1-13

                    Awake! August 8, 1976 Is Cremation Proper for Christians? P.28 Additionally, the Bible plainly shows that it matters not whether a dead body is returned to dust rapidly by fire or gradually by decay. Either way God’s words are true: “For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen. 3:19) It certainly is not as if God needs a mummy in order to resurrect a person. The apostle Paul taught that a person resurrected to heaven will be given a new body, so that he is “changed” from the fleshly body that disintegrated. He showed that ‘God gives to each one a body just as it pleases him.’ (1 Cor. 15:35-49) It will be similar with those resurrected to life on earth in the New Order. God will be able to provide adequate human bodies no matter how their former bodies disintegrated, whether rapidly by fire or slowly by decay.

                    Resurrection involves a reactivating of the life pattern of the individual, which life pattern God has retained in his memory. According to God’s will for the individual, the person is restored in either a human or a spirit body and yet retains his personal identity, having the same personality and memories as when he died. [Reasoning From The Scriptures pg.333]

                    At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body.[ibid]

                    Jesus, as a perfect, flesh-and-blood man, actually died as a man and remains dead as a man forever. [w87 4/15 p.6]

                    [w53 9/1 p.518] "JESUS’ FLESHLY BODY
                    DISSOLVED.......disintegrated back into the elements from which all human bodies are made."
                    Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                      Hi Julio,

                      Here's the documentation I referred to about how the WTS says Jesus' body saw corruption even though the Bible is clear that it did not:

                      They used to say his body was dissolved into gases. And at one time they believed it was preserved, dead, for display during the Millennium.....I guess like a mummy.

                      Their current belief is that God disposed of it, disintegrating it back into the elements and atoms human bodies are made of----which they also describe as being the corruption the Bible says did not happen to Jesus' body.

                      Watch Tower view of corruption:

                      Awake! July 22, 1979 Life After Death—A Sure Hope p.15 God can restore to life a person whose body was putrefying, as he did with Lazarus, or, if one’s body has completely disintegrated, he can re-create an entirely new one and restore life to the person.

                      Watchtower January 1, 2009 Do You Fear The Dead? p.11 Jehovah was the first to speak of death. He warned that Adam and Eve would die if they disobeyed him. (Genesis 2:17) What did that mean? Jehovah explained: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) At death the body disintegrates; it goes back to the dust. Life ceases.

                      Watchtower June 1, 1959 pp.346-347 Only those will experience a resurrection from the dead who either have proved themselves keepers of integrity or at least had a leaning toward righteousness but who because of ignorance did not serve God and therefore are termed the “unrighteous.”—Acts 24:15.
                      What will be resurrected? The body? No, for it has disintegrated and its atoms have become parts of other living things, which, in turn, may have become part of other living creatures.

                      Watchtower September 1, 1952 p.518 Moses’ body returned to the dust by process of decay, as all human bodies do, but not so in Jesus’ case, for it is written: “For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption.” (Ps. 16:10, AS; Acts 2:31) So God caused Jesus’ body to disappear, but not corrupt, meaning that it was dissolved, disintegrated back into the elements from which all human bodies are made.—John 20:1-13

                      Awake! August 8, 1976 Is Cremation Proper for Christians? P.28 Additionally, the Bible plainly shows that it matters not whether a dead body is returned to dust rapidly by fire or gradually by decay. Either way God’s words are true: “For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen. 3:19) It certainly is not as if God needs a mummy in order to resurrect a person. The apostle Paul taught that a person resurrected to heaven will be given a new body, so that he is “changed” from the fleshly body that disintegrated. He showed that ‘God gives to each one a body just as it pleases him.’ (1 Cor. 15:35-49) It will be similar with those resurrected to life on earth in the New Order. God will be able to provide adequate human bodies no matter how their former bodies disintegrated, whether rapidly by fire or slowly by decay.

                      Resurrection involves a reactivating of the life pattern of the individual, which life pattern God has retained in his memory. According to God’s will for the individual, the person is restored in either a human or a spirit body and yet retains his personal identity, having the same personality and memories as when he died. [Reasoning From The Scriptures pg.333]

                      At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body.[ibid]

                      Jesus, as a perfect, flesh-and-blood man, actually died as a man and remains dead as a man forever. [w87 4/15 p.6]

                      [w53 9/1 p.518] "JESUS’ FLESHLY BODY
                      DISSOLVED.......disintegrated back into the elements from which all human bodies are made."
                      None of the above says Jesus' body suffered corruption. Ongyo is right to question your ability to understand any thing you quote from the WTS publications. In fact one of those quotes stated that Jesus' body did not see corruption!(See Watchtower September 1, 1952 p.518 Moses’ body returned to the dust by process of decay, as all human bodies do, but not so in Jesus’ case, for it is written: “For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption.” (Ps. 16:10, AS; Acts 2:31) So God caused Jesus’ body to disappear, BUT NOT CORRUPT, meaning that it was dissolved, disintegrated back into the elements from which all human bodies are made.—John 20:1-13) Still, all of the above agree with Acts 2.35 and in fact I shew you his body could not and did not see "corruption" by the following which I repeat here for your convenience and correction:

                      Hebrews 10.1 tells us the Law was a "shadow of the things to come."(Compare Hebrews 8.5) The Atonement Day sacrifices pictured what Jesus Himself would do. Sacrifice his body as a "burnt" and "sin" offering. See Hebrews 10.5-10. Yes, Jesus sacrificed his earthly body. Now, those sacrifices according to the Law was not taken back by the one who offered them and the whole sacrifice would be offered, no part of the animal would remain over. This foreshadowed what Jesus would do by the offering of his body. This means that if Jesus earthly fleshly body had been resurrected and he now has it he did not sacrifice it and means the sacrifices on Atonement Day do not foreshadow Jesus' sacrifice. Hebrews 13.11 also shows that like those animals whose bodies were burnt up then likewise Jesus'. So yes, Hebrews 10.1f and 13.11 do show that Jesus could not take back his body of flesh which he gave on behalf of the world.(John 6. 51)

                      We can see this is confirmed by closely looking at Acts 2.29-32. We read there that "David" was both "deceased and was buried" and that his tomb was in existence then. Please note it is said that "David" not just David's body that was "buried." This indicates that when the body dies it is the person who ceases to live and not only the body as if the person, the 'soul' continues to exist. So, the point here is that David did not survive his death and his body slowly decayed, it suffered corruption. There was his tomb to show this. Would this happen to Jesus' body? No, for not only did Jesus die and yet be resurrected but also his body would not suffer or see "corruption." The context determines what this means. As David's body was buried and his tomb still existed, with the decayed remains, Jesus' body of flesh would not see this corruption. Or as the New American Standard puts it, "nor did his flesh suffer decay". See preceding paragraph about what happened to his body of flesh which was a sacrifice.
                      And as for bodies of flesh being "dissolved" one only need to go to Paul at 2 Corinthians 5.1. Note there too that in the resurrection the apostle expected to receive another body, a different one, "not made with hands." That is, not physical, not earthly, not made with dust. That earthly, physical one gets to be "dissolved" or "demolished"(Barclay's translation)

                      Note that one is "buried" in Hades and hence is a place in the ground that all who die go.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by barneyman3 View Post

                        None of the above says Jesus' body suffered corruption. Ongyo is right to question your ability to understand any thing you quote from the WTS publications. In fact one of those quotes stated that Jesus' body did not see corruption!(See Watchtower September 1, 1952 p.518 Moses’ body returned to the dust by process of decay, as all human bodies do, but not so in Jesus’ case, for it is written: “For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption.” (Ps. 16:10, AS; Acts 2:31) So God caused Jesus’ body to disappear, BUT NOT CORRUPT, meaning that it was dissolved, disintegrated back into the elements from which all human bodies are made.—John 20:1-13) Still, all of the above agree with Acts 2.35 and in fact I shew you his body could not and did not see "corruption" by the following which I repeat here for your convenience and correction:

                        Hebrews 10.1 tells us the Law was a "shadow of the things to come."(Compare Hebrews 8.5) The Atonement Day sacrifices pictured what Jesus Himself would do. Sacrifice his body as a "burnt" and "sin" offering. See Hebrews 10.5-10. Yes, Jesus sacrificed his earthly body. Now, those sacrifices according to the Law was not taken back by the one who offered them and the whole sacrifice would be offered, no part of the animal would remain over. This foreshadowed what Jesus would do by the offering of his body. This means that if Jesus earthly fleshly body had been resurrected and he now has it he did not sacrifice it and means the sacrifices on Atonement Day do not foreshadow Jesus' sacrifice. Hebrews 13.11 also shows that like those animals whose bodies were burnt up then likewise Jesus'. So yes, Hebrews 10.1f and 13.11 do show that Jesus could not take back his body of flesh which he gave on behalf of the world.(John 6. 51)

                        We can see this is confirmed by closely looking at Acts 2.29-32. We read there that "David" was both "deceased and was buried" and that his tomb was in existence then. Please note it is said that "David" not just David's body that was "buried." This indicates that when the body dies it is the person who ceases to live and not only the body as if the person, the 'soul' continues to exist. So, the point here is that David did not survive his death and his body slowly decayed, it suffered corruption. There was his tomb to show this. Would this happen to Jesus' body? No, for not only did Jesus die and yet be resurrected but also his body would not suffer or see "corruption." The context determines what this means. As David's body was buried and his tomb still existed, with the decayed remains, Jesus' body of flesh would not see this corruption. Or as the New American Standard puts it, "nor did his flesh suffer decay". See preceding paragraph about what happened to his body of flesh which was a sacrifice.
                        And as for bodies of flesh being "dissolved" one only need to go to Paul at 2 Corinthians 5.1. Note there too that in the resurrection the apostle expected to receive another body, a different one, "not made with hands." That is, not physical, not earthly, not made with dust. That earthly, physical one gets to be "dissolved" or "demolished"(Barclay's translation)

                        Note that one is "buried" in Hades and hence is a place in the ground that all who die go.
                        No non-JW want to dispute anything from this post? Seems to me some like to start a thread then instead of dealing with it, their own thread, they start numerous others....and do the same with them.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          From a past post of mine.
                          1. There is so much wrong in [your post] its hard to know where to start! But let us tackle it this way. You seem to think that for Jesus to be Jesus again his soul would have to survive his death and his body would be raised and re-united with the immaterial part of him, his soul. However, you forget at least two truths or facts. The first is that we as humans have bodies which are formed of atoms but through catabolism and anabolism all atoms are being replaced and in seven years the body you had has been replaced with another for all the atoms from seven years ago have gone elsewhere. But would you say you are a mere copy of the person or soul you were seven years ago? Hardly. So why do you insist that Jesus must have his old body given back to him for him to be the self same person or soul he was before? Additionally, I believe you believe that Adam as a soul still exists, has a conscious existence despite his death about six thousand years ago and he will be resurrected. But where is that body now ? Do you think those atoms that composed the body of Adam at the time he died will have to be all collected together again? Also, you seem to forget that Adam as a "living soul" died, not just his body. Allow me yet again to re-quote myself because up to now you have not even attempted a refutation of the following.
                            Genesis 2.7 where we see that at Adam's creation he became "a living soul." He became a living soul when God breathed into his nostrils the "breath of life." So, a "living soul" is a body plus this breath of life. The Hebrew word nephesh the NWT renders consistently as "soul" basically means "a breather." But Adam disobeyed. What did that mean for Adam? The death of his body and his soul survives? But that can not be as Adam was a soul. So would death for Adam be the death of a soul? Yes. At Genesis 3.19 Jehovah told Adam "you[Adam, this "living soul"] will return to the ground, since from it you[Adam, this "living soul"] were taken; for dust you[Adam, this "living soul"] are and dust you[Adam, this "living soul"] will return." Is Jehovah speaking about the destruction of Adam's body only and not some immaterial soul that can continue to think and survive the destruction of a body? If so Jehovah is completely silent about that. No, Jehovah address Adam, this "living soul." Adam as a soul will suffer this fate. He will be a dead soul. By definition a dead soul no longer exists. Adam, the "living soul" no longer exists. And that is exactly what we read is the fate of Adam, this "living soul." But if you hold that there is a "soul" that survives the death of the body you would have Adam not suffer the fate that Jehovah said he would and so you will have to think it was the serpent was telling the truth to Eve that even if she did disobey God she "will surely not die."-Genesis 3.4. But both Adam and Eve did. They no longer exist. The whole bible is consistent with that, that the nephesh/PSYKHE is either the person itself or the life of that person and it does not survive the death of the body.
                            But since this is the case and yet if you would still cling to the belief that Adam will be resurrected then how it is going to be Adam and not someone who thinks he is?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It is worth noting that the person who resurrected Jesus is always said to be the Father. Jesus was dead so needed the Father to save him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              If the resurrection means raising the body the person once had to be re-united with a soul that survived death, what of those who have died many many years ago? For example. If a man dies in battle. He lies there unburied. Scavengers eat off the dead body, and other smaller creatures consume it. The flesh then is gone. His bones are left. Sometime in the future the individual bones get picked up, separately and at different times. The bones suffer different fates. Some are used, some discarded, some consumed by fire, etc. All of the atoms of that body then have been dispersed. The little creatures could then be eaten by birds. Those birds die and decay into the ground. The atoms of those birds then could become part of trees. The tree's fruit is eaten by other creatures including humans. Likewise the atoms of those bones. Many atoms would then have become part of living things at the time of the resurrection. Even part of human beings too. So, if the body is to be resurrected it must mean God will have gather together and re-assemble all the original atoms by taking them away from living things, including some humans, and the earth! The scriptures do not teach that! The scriptures teach that in the resurrection the person is resurrected, brought back to life again, not the old body which has been destroyed over time.

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