Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

Refuting WTS doctrines - Jesus Christ bodily resurrection

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    This is worth reposting here(from here https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...-2-18-22/page2. Post #25)


    What is our hope? Organic "continuity" or God's power?


    That the hope for the dead is the resurrection is one of the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith. The writer of Hebrews calls it "primary doctrine." (Heb 6:1-2)

    However, some do not trust in the resurrection alone for their eternal salvation but rather insist that logic teaches that unless one's original organic molecules are re-assembled and joined with one's consciousness which continues to exist in a bodiless state, they cannot truly believe that they are indeed the same individual person that existed before they died.

    These ones appear to doubt that the Almighty God's memory of them is not perfect enough to resurrect their bodies and minds without a crutch of some piece of DNA from their original body and that God needs to preserve their personality and intellect in a bodiless "soul" because he is not truly omniscient and omnipotent.

    Man's "logic" and philosophy cannot solve this for us. We need God's Word the bible. What does the bible say about the matter?

    1Corinthians 15 is perhaps the single most comprehensive passage which deals with this subject. While other passages contribute to the Bible's viewpoint on the resurrection, this purpose of 1Corinthians is clearly to teach about the specifics of the resurrection. The resurrection body is not the human that is sown.

    1Cor 15:36 says
    "You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies ; 37 and as for what you sow, you sow, not the body [OU TO SWMA] that will develop, but a bare grain"
    Therefore there is no physical or "organic" continuity because Paul very explicitly says that the original body is emphatically "not the body[OU TO SOMA]" "that will develop." In very clear and unambiguous language Paul Paul states that the original organic human body will not be in heaven. The heavenly body does not retain either the form or organic function of the earthly human.

    The World Book Encyclopedia says
    "When a seed begins to germinate, it absorbs large amounts of water. The water causes many chemical changes inside the seed. It also causes the seed's internal tissues to swell and break through the seed coat." The seed dies as a seed and becomes an emerging plant." [Watchtower--July 1,1998, page 20, par. 5]
    Therefore, when a living seed of wheat germinates it literally dies. The plant that develops from a seed is not merely a modification to the seed but a completely new and different sort of organism. As Paul put it, the body of the seed does not develop into or is not modified to become the body of the plant.

    The DNA of the seed defines the seed as an organism that has a function and form that is entirely different that the plant that develops. The purpose of a seed is to germinate and when it senses that the time is right it is programmed to release enzymes that completely dissolve and destroy itself. The plant has new DNA which is programmed to produce a plant which is unrelated in form and function to the seed that preceded it. The form and function of the seed is not incorporated into the plant that grows. This is the point of 1Corinthians 15:37 which says says that God gives it a body. God does not modify the existing body, he GIVES it a body. There is a big difference between this and organic continuity from the existing body. Therefore the belief that God needs to use the original organic material in the resurrection body and retain it's appearance is without merit.

    Organic continuity can be illustrated in the development of a tadpole into a frog. Both the tadpole and the frog share many common features like heart, blood, eyes and so forth. The form and function are not completely different but merely modified between the tadpole and the frog. In contrast the wheat plant that develops comes from the blueprint that God put into the seed and is not a metamorphosis of the organic matter of the seed. Thus the wheat plant does not retain the form and function of the original organic seed. The continuity "lies wholly in God"

    Thus "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament", V. IX, p. 1062, states
    "In 1C.15:35-44 life after death is for Paul dependent on the resurrection of the body... There is no inner part of man in which heavenly life is already man's possession so that he is no longer referred to God's creative act."
    TDNT, Volume VI p. 650, 5. Secularity of the Usage [of "soul" in Paul]
    "the new life of the risen Lord would be understood wholly as a gift on the basis of a new creative act of God ... For him there is a continuity between the earthly life and that of the resurrection ... Paul says with greater theological sharpness [than the Gospels] that the continuity lies wholly in God."
    The composition of the resurrection body is not organic.

    The new body is not made of dust like the original body therefore it cannot have "organic" continuity.
    "48 As the one made of dust[hO XOIKOS] [is], so those made of dust[hOI XOIKOI] [are] also; and as the heavenly one[hO EPOURANIOS] [is], so those who areheavenly[hOI EPOURANIOI] [are] also."
    Conclusion

    Therefore the person who is resurrected to heavenly life is not the body that they sowed as a human being. The heavenly person is not made of the organic dust of the earth but is given a body by God which does not have a physical organic continuity to the earthly body made of the dust of the ground.

    Comment


    • #17
      Question for thought. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/m...eath/#?insight

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

        Excellent scriptures, Julio.

        If we were to ask a JW what of Jesus survived the death of his body, they would say nothing did. They would say, "When a person dies, he ceases to exist."

        Even though scriptures is adamant that Jesus' body did not see corruption, they say it did, dissolving as all physical bodies do back into the atoms and elements it is made of; they say his spirit was an impersonal life force like energy or electricity; and they say his soul was not something that can exist apart from the body---in their words, his soul was him with all his physical and mental qualities.

        They also put Jesus in the position of being deceptive because when he showed them his hands and his feet and his side, and invited Thomas to touch the scars in them, according to JWs it was not really the hands and feet that had been pierced with nails nor the side that was pierced with a sword. No, JWs say Jesus faked those scars by quickly creating a physical body that included scars on the hands, feet, and side.

        When Jesus said, "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” JWs insist that he was a spirit---a spirit that had quickly created a scarred body to show them.

        I'm glad you shared 1 Cor. 15:14 because by JWs denying the resurrection of Jesus, their preaching is useless and so is their faith (being that their faith is in the WTS and not in Jesus.)
        Bumping
        Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

        Comment


        • #19
          Jehovah's Witnesses calling Jesus a lair in
          Luke 24:38-39

          ďWhy are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
          39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.Ē

          Comment


          • #20
            Paul does not say that the difference between Adam and Jesus is that Adam had a physical body and Jesus did not. When Jesus became a man, when Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit and bore the Messiah as a virgin, the child conceived was a physical human being. As to His substance, He consisted of flesh like any other man, and that flesh did not deprive Him of His glory:

            "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth," (John 1:14).

            Likewise, Jesus rose from the dead still as a man. He explained to His followers:

            "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have," (Luke 24:39).

            Indeed, Paul himself teaches earlier in the chapter that Jesus "was buried and then rose again," (1 Corinthians 15:4). What was buried is what rose. The body that went down into the grave is the body that came up out of it. Paul's point contrasting Adam and Jesus was not a matter of substance. Jesus was made of physical flesh. But there was a crucial difference. Adam was made from the earth. Jesus descended from heaven. This is the difference to which Paul draws our attention. We bear the image of the earthy man. In him is sin, death, and corruption. We must bear the image of the heavenly man. In Him is life and eternity. None of this means we cease to be humans and reincarnate as some angelic beings in ethereal heavenly realms beyond. Instead, it means freedom from the curse under Adam and new and better life in Christ for all ages to come! Paul goes on to explain:

            "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, 'Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?'" (1 Corinthians 15:50-55).

            Comment


            • #21
              1. Why would Jesus state that a sign of His authority would be the resurrection of His body (John 2:18-22). If, as
              Jehovah's Witnesses claim, He raised "spiritually"?

              2. If Jesus raised as a spirit, then what happened to His body?

              3. If Jesus is a spirit, then why did Paul write some 30 years following the resurrection that Christ is existing in a physical body? (Cor 2:9 = Greek: somatikos = physical form)

              4. If Jesus was raised as a spirit, then why did He deceive His disciples into thinking He was resurrected in a body of flesh and bone? (Luke 24:36)

              5. If only a spirit or ghost, not "flash and bone" could transcend through locked doors and windows, then was Jesus a spirit when He walked on water? (John 6:19)

              6. If Jesus was raised as a spirit and only materialized in different forms then why, on the road to Emmaus, were the eyes of the disciples "veiled" or "holden" to keep them from recognizing Him? (Luke 24:16; 31)

              7. What is the Gospel preached by millions of JW's in their door-to-door publishing work? The Gospel preached by born-again Christians is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Is this the same Gospel or a different Gospel than that which is preached by JW's?

              8. What did Paul state the Gospel by which we are saved to be? (1 Cor 15:1-4) What is the end result of preaching a different Gospel? (Gal 1:8-9)

              Comment


              • #22
                1. They use 1 Pet. 3:18 where it says that Christ was "put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit" as an attempt to show that Jesus was not raised physically but as a kind of spirit creature.
                Their use of the scripture to support their position is incorrect because this verse does not say that He was raised a spirit creature. It says that He was "made alive in the spirit." What does that mean? Quite simply, it means that Jesus was raised in an imperishable body. This is what 1 Cor. 15:35-45 says when it refers to the body as being sown perishable, but raised imperishable; sown in dishonor and raised in glory; sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body, etc. Jesus was the "Last Adam" - a life-giving spirit. Paul is typifying the resurrection body. In this passage Paul is talking about the resurrection of all people. All Christians will be raised in physical bodies. It is said the same of Jesus.

                2. The Bible says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:44-50). Therefore, Jesus' physical body could not be raised lest it contradict this verse.
                What the Jehovah's Witnesses miss is that after His resurrection Jesus said, "Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have," (Luke 24:39). You must note that Jesus did not say, "flesh and blood." He said, "flesh and bones." This is because Jesus' blood was shed on the cross. The life is in the blood, and it is the blood that cleanses from sin: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul," (Lev. 17:11). See also, Gen. 9:4; Deut. 12:23; and John 6:53-54. Jesus was pointing out that He was different. He had a body but not a body of flesh and blood. It was flesh and bones.

                3. The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus manifested different physical forms in order to convince the disciples that He had been raised.
                This is faulty for several reasons. First, it would mean that Jesus was tricking His disciples into believing that His body had been raised when it hadn't. Second, it disregards the clear teaching of Jesus Himself who said His very body would be raised. He said in John 2:19-21, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21But He was speaking of the temple of His body." Jesus said that His body would be raised. The Jehovah's Witnesses clearly deny Jesus' very words. Fourth, 1 Tim. 2:5 says, "For there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus." Jesus is said to be a man--in present-tense language. If He was not raised physically, then how could he be a man? He could not be.

                4. Jesus manifested different bodies after the resurrection--the same way the angels took human form in the Old Testament in order to show the disciples that He had been raised.
                Again, this contradicts what Jesus said in John 2:19-21 that He would raise Himself from the dead . . . physically. Also, Jesus is not an angel contrary to what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe. Jesus was God in flesh (John 8:58; John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8).

                The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus did not rise from the dead in the same body He died in. This is a dangerous doctrine that contradicts the Bible and condemns those who believe it to eternal destruction because it is denying His physical resurrection which is the proof that He conquered death. The Jehovah's Witnesses need to keep Jesus' own words in mind when He said, "Destroy this temple and in three days, I will raise it up." (John 2:19). Since He was speaking of His body says John in verse 21, then it must be true; Jesus rose from the dead in the same body He died in. Also, at His ascension people watched Him rise to be with the Father. They saw His body ascend. That is why it can be said that Jesus, the man, is the mediator between God and man. (1 Tim. 2:5). It isn't an angel or a spirit creature that is the mediator. It is Jesus the man.



                https://carm.org/jehovahs-witnesses-...rrection-jesus

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by thomas1961 View Post
                  1. Why would Jesus state that a sign of His authority would be the resurrection of His body (John 2:18-22). If, as
                  Jehovah's Witnesses claim, He raised "spiritually"?



                  5. If only a spirit or ghost, not "flash and bone" could transcend through locked doors and windows, then was Jesus a spirit when He walked on water? (John 6:19)

                  More to the point: Was Peter also a ghost/spirit being when HE got out of the boat and walked on the water towards Jesus?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by vashtiwood View Post

                    More to the point: Was Peter also a ghost/spirit being when HE got out of the boat and walked on the water towards Jesus?

                    Good question.

                    Hi Vashti, welcome to the forum. Are we related?



                    Holly
                    Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      bumping

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by thomas1961 View Post
                        1. Why would Jesus state that a sign of His authority would be the resurrection of His body (John 2:18-22). If, as
                        Jehovah's Witnesses claim, He raised "spiritually"?

                        2. If Jesus raised as a spirit, then what happened to His body?

                        3. If Jesus is a spirit, then why did Paul write some 30 years following the resurrection that Christ is existing in a physical body? (Cor 2:9 = Greek: somatikos = physical form)

                        4. If Jesus was raised as a spirit, then why did He deceive His disciples into thinking He was resurrected in a body of flesh and bone? (Luke 24:36)

                        5. If only a spirit or ghost, not "flash and bone" could transcend through locked doors and windows, then was Jesus a spirit when He walked on water? (John 6:19)

                        6. If Jesus was raised as a spirit and only materialized in different forms then why, on the road to Emmaus, were the eyes of the disciples "veiled" or "holden" to keep them from recognizing Him? (Luke 24:16; 31)

                        7. What is the Gospel preached by millions of JW's in their door-to-door publishing work? The Gospel preached by born-again Christians is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Is this the same Gospel or a different Gospel than that which is preached by JW's?

                        8. What did Paul state the Gospel by which we are saved to be? (1 Cor 15:1-4) What is the end result of preaching a different Gospel? (Gal 1:8-9)
                        Hi Thomas,

                        Great posts. Excellent questions.

                        I'm going to bump your post so that JWs and their apologists can review these questions. Hopefully the Holy Spirit will guide them into all the truth as they study the Bible for the answers.


                        Holly
                        Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heartís desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about Godís righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                          Hi Thomas,

                          Great posts. Excellent questions.

                          I'm going to bump your post so that JWs and their apologists can review these questions. Hopefully the Holy Spirit will guide them into all the truth as they study the Bible for the answers.


                          Holly
                          Do play more attention Hollywood....they have all(his usual copy/paste of course) been answered in this thread....but some of mine do need addressing.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X