Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

Matthew Slick and John 15.13.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • barneyman3
    started a topic Matthew Slick and John 15.13.

    Matthew Slick and John 15.13.

    Matthew Slick argues that at John 15.13 Jesus spoke about what is the "greatest" act of love and why then Jesus must be "God."

    See here: https://carm.org/has-jehovahs-witnes...st-act-of-love

    Awhile back I countered this erroneous argument(on a website of my own and the article may have been reproduced by others elsewhere) and herewith I supply it.

    The following will show that Slick's charge against the God of the Bible, the God of the Jehovah's Witnesses, God the Father, Jehovah, is false and that the greatest ever love performed in the history of the universe was by God the Father when he sent and gave his own Son to die for the "world." See John 3:16 and 1 John 4:8-10.

    Paul says of God the Father "He [the Father] who did not even spare his own Son but delivered him up for us all."- Romans 8:32.

    This is not to say that the Son himself as the "man" Jesus Christ when dying for the world did not have a great love Himself. See Romans 5:8, 15.

    However, as John Stott rightly comments on the love of God, the Father, in sending his Son to die says about what John wrote at 1 John 4:9, 10:

    "The coming of Christ is, therefore, a concrete, historical revelation of God's love, for love (agape) is self sacrifice, the seeking of another's positive good at one's own cost, and a greater self-giving than God's gift of His Son there has never been, nor could be....No greater gift of God is conceivable because no greater gift was possible. This was God's 'unspeakable gift' (2 Cor. ix. 15). Cf. John iii. 16, Romans viii. 32...The greatness of God's love, manifest in the nature of His gift and its purpose, is seen also in its beneficiaries, for God gave His Son to die for us undeserving sinners....He [God] loved us and sent His Son to rescue us because He [God] is love. So, the greatness of His love is seen in the costliness of His self-sacrifice for the wholly undeserving (cf. Rom. v. 7, 8). A clearer manifestation of God's love could not be imagined."- The Epistles of John, An Introduction and Commentary, Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, 1st edition, July 1964, pp. 162, 163.-bold ours.

    The "love" of God, the Father, then of both John 3:16 and 1 John 4:8-10 is the greatest love ever performed by God for there is no other equal to His beloved own unique Son[UION TON MONOGENH "Son the only-begotten] whom the Father could send and could give on behalf of the "world" and so the Father's "love" here is even greater than the love Jesus spoke of at John 15:13 which as George R. Beasley-Murray rightly describes as:

    "the greatest measure of altruistic human love." World Biblical Commentary: John.

    George R. Beasley-Murray is correct as the context of Jesus' words at John 15:13 restricts the "love" there spoken of to that done by those for one's "friends."

    Andrew T. Lincoln seems to agree for commenting on verses 14, 15 he begins by stating:

    "That the maxim [of v.13] about the greatest human love refers not only to what his disciples are to do for one another but also to what Jesus will do for them..."(The Gospel According to St John, Black's New Testament Commentaries, p.406).

    Jesus, as "a man" and certainly not as God (see John 8:40; Romans 5:15; 1 Timothy 2:5) laid down his life for his "friends" and Jesus expected his followers to have the same great love for one another. This "love" then is of a love there is no greater among friends, amongst humans. Jesus did not tell his disciples they should have this love for their enemies but for their "friends." However, God's love is greater as it speaks of a love God had for a "world" that was alienated and hostile to him yet his love for this world prompted Him to send and give his own dear Son to die for it and is, as Andrew Lincoln described it, is the "supreme demonstration of divine love."

    This is undoubtedly what the evangelical scholar and writer Stott meant when he wrote, to repeat him:

    ".....a greater self-giving than God's gift of His Son there has never been, nor could be....No greater gift of God is conceivable because no greater gift was possible.... the greatness of His love is seen in the costliness of His self-sacrifice for the wholly undeserving (cf. Rom. v. 7, 8). A clearer manifestation of God's love could not be imagined."

    No commentator can be found to deny this. No commentator would deny this truth. But Slick has denied it for he has explicitly argued that the "greatest" love spoken of and performed was the "love" of John 15:13. The above scholars show how and why Slick errs. I have used them as hostile witnesses to his erroneous article. If he disagrees with the above he will have to show why they are wrong and why instead he is right.

  • barneyman3
    replied
    Originally posted by barneyman3 View Post
    Matthew Slick argues that at John 15.13 Jesus spoke about what is the "greatest" act of love and why then Jesus must be "God."

    See here: https://carm.org/has-jehovahs-witnes...st-act-of-love

    Awhile back I countered this erroneous argument(on a website of my own and the article may have been reproduced by others elsewhere) and herewith I supply it.

    The following will show that Slick's charge against the God of the Bible, the God of the Jehovah's Witnesses, God the Father, Jehovah, is false and that the greatest ever love performed in the history of the universe was by God the Father when he sent and gave his own Son to die for the "world." See John 3:16 and 1 John 4:8-10.

    Paul says of God the Father "He [the Father] who did not even spare his own Son but delivered him up for us all."- Romans 8:32.

    This is not to say that the Son himself as the "man" Jesus Christ when dying for the world did not have a great love Himself. See Romans 5:8, 15.

    However, as John Stott rightly comments on the love of God, the Father, in sending his Son to die says about what John wrote at 1 John 4:9, 10:

    "The coming of Christ is, therefore, a concrete, historical revelation of God's love, for love (agape) is self sacrifice, the seeking of another's positive good at one's own cost, and a greater self-giving than God's gift of His Son there has never been, nor could be....No greater gift of God is conceivable because no greater gift was possible. This was God's 'unspeakable gift' (2 Cor. ix. 15). Cf. John iii. 16, Romans viii. 32...The greatness of God's love, manifest in the nature of His gift and its purpose, is seen also in its beneficiaries, for God gave His Son to die for us undeserving sinners....He [God] loved us and sent His Son to rescue us because He [God] is love. So, the greatness of His love is seen in the costliness of His self-sacrifice for the wholly undeserving (cf. Rom. v. 7, 8). A clearer manifestation of God's love could not be imagined."- The Epistles of John, An Introduction and Commentary, Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, 1st edition, July 1964, pp. 162, 163.-bold ours.

    The "love" of God, the Father, then of both John 3:16 and 1 John 4:8-10 is the greatest love ever performed by God for there is no other equal to His beloved own unique Son[UION TON MONOGENH "Son the only-begotten] whom the Father could send and could give on behalf of the "world" and so the Father's "love" here is even greater than the love Jesus spoke of at John 15:13 which as George R. Beasley-Murray rightly describes as:

    "the greatest measure of altruistic human love." World Biblical Commentary: John.

    George R. Beasley-Murray is correct as the context of Jesus' words at John 15:13 restricts the "love" there spoken of to that done by those for one's "friends."

    Andrew T. Lincoln seems to agree for commenting on verses 14, 15 he begins by stating:

    "That the maxim [of v.13] about the greatest human love refers not only to what his disciples are to do for one another but also to what Jesus will do for them..."(The Gospel According to St John, Black's New Testament Commentaries, p.406).

    Jesus, as "a man" and certainly not as God (see John 8:40; Romans 5:15; 1 Timothy 2:5) laid down his life for his "friends" and Jesus expected his followers to have the same great love for one another. This "love" then is of a love there is no greater among friends, amongst humans. Jesus did not tell his disciples they should have this love for their enemies but for their "friends." However, God's love is greater as it speaks of a love God had for a "world" that was alienated and hostile to him yet his love for this world prompted Him to send and give his own dear Son to die for it and is, as Andrew Lincoln described it, is the "supreme demonstration of divine love."

    This is undoubtedly what the evangelical scholar and writer Stott meant when he wrote, to repeat him:

    ".....a greater self-giving than God's gift of His Son there has never been, nor could be....No greater gift of God is conceivable because no greater gift was possible.... the greatness of His love is seen in the costliness of His self-sacrifice for the wholly undeserving (cf. Rom. v. 7, 8). A clearer manifestation of God's love could not be imagined."

    No commentator can be found to deny this. No commentator would deny this truth. But Slick has denied it for he has explicitly argued that the "greatest" love spoken of and performed was the "love" of John 15:13. The above scholars show how and why Slick errs. I have used them as hostile witnesses to his erroneous article. If he disagrees with the above he will have to show why they are wrong and why instead he is right.
    I'm going to bump my post so that nonJWs and their apologists can review these questions. Hopefully the holy spirit will guide them into all the truth as they study the Bible for the answers.

    Leave a comment:


  • barneyman3
    replied
    Bump for Slick

    Leave a comment:


  • CrowCross
    replied
    Originally posted by barneyman3 View Post
    This is not to say that the Son himself as the "man" Jesus Christ when dying for the world did not have a great love Himself. See Romans 5:8, 15.
    I totslly misssed your point here.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X