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something jesus said about dying that is getting to me.

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  • something jesus said about dying that is getting to me.


    What do you think of john 11:11-14 and luke 8:52-56?I am confused):

  • #2
    Originally posted by Batman lover View Post
    What do you think of john 11:11-14 and luke 8:52-56?I am confused):
    Sleep is just a way of describing those who will later awake (think resurrection).

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by B Student View Post

      Sleep is just a way of describing those who will later awake (think resurrection).
      How about Luke 16:19-31?
      Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

        How about Luke 16:19-31?
        How about John 11:11-25, Dan 12:2, Acts 13:36, 1Cor 15:51, 1Tim 4:13-16?

        Isn't Luke 16 a parable? I think you need to be careful extrapolating literal teachings from a parable. (doesn't always work).

        Do you disagree with what I said? Do you think what I wrote was unscriptural?

        If so, why?

        Thanks.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by B Student View Post

          How about John 11:11-25, Dan 12:2, Acts 13:36, 1Cor 15:51, 1Tim 4:13-16?

          Isn't Luke 16 a parable? I think you need to be careful extrapolating literal teachings from a parable. (doesn't always work).

          Do you disagree with what I said? Do you think what I wrote was unscriptural?

          If so, why?

          Thanks.
          All of Jesus' parables are based on real life, on events that could and did happen. No less with Luke 16:19-31.

          The JW view of Luke 16:19-31 is that everything after verse 22 could never happen, will never happen, and has never happened. IOW the parable has no basis in truth or fact after verse 22 according to WTS teachings.

          Is that your view of the passage?
          Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

            All of Jesus' parables are based on real life, on events that could and did happen. No less with Luke 16:19-31.

            The JW view of Luke 16:19-31 is that everything after verse 22 could never happen, will never happen, and has never happened. IOW the parable has no basis in truth or fact after verse 22 according to WTS teachings.

            Is that your view of the passage?
            Hi Hollywood.

            I’ve heard that argument before. Let’s think for a bit. What you’re trying to assert is that every spiritual teaching of God is based on a literal physical reality. Is that something we want to try to confine ourselves to when reading scriptures?

            How about the following examples:

            Matt 6:19 - Do you think you are currently saving up literal treasure in heaven? Or does that treasure represent something symbolic?

            Matt 22: 1-14 - Did this parable ever play out literally? Did it play out symbolically?

            Rev 13: 1-2 - Are you expecting a literal 7 headed beast with 10 horns, feet like a bear and mouth like a lion?

            Rev 16 - Is the wrath of God being poured out using literal bowls from heaven?

            Luke 11:25 – Do evil spirits look for literal houses that are literally swept and put in order so they can relax on nice clean beds?

            Can you show me some verses that say every spiritual teaching of God is based on a literal physical reality?

            I think what is really important in parables and prophecies are the lessons behind the stories and symbols. Why is there a need for every spiritual lesson to be based on a physical reality?

            Thanks.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by B Student View Post

              Hi Hollywood.

              I’ve heard that argument before. Let’s think for a bit. What you’re trying to assert is that every spiritual teaching of God is based on a literal physical reality. Is that something we want to try to confine ourselves to when reading scriptures?

              How about the following examples:

              Matt 6:19 - Do you think you are currently saving up literal treasure in heaven? Or does that treasure represent something symbolic?

              Matt 22: 1-14 - Did this parable ever play out literally? Did it play out symbolically?

              Rev 13: 1-2 - Are you expecting a literal 7 headed beast with 10 horns, feet like a bear and mouth like a lion?

              Rev 16 - Is the wrath of God being poured out using literal bowls from heaven?

              Luke 11:25 – Do evil spirits look for literal houses that are literally swept and put in order so they can relax on nice clean beds?

              Can you show me some verses that say every spiritual teaching of God is based on a literal physical reality?

              I think what is really important in parables and prophecies are the lessons behind the stories and symbols. Why is there a need for every spiritual lesson to be based on a physical reality?

              Thanks.
              Since this is the JW forum, it would be helpful if you'd weigh in with a reply to what I asked because I'm asking you about JW beliefs, as my prior post indicated:

              The JW view of Luke 16:19-31 is that everything after verse 22 could never happen, will never happen, and has never happened. IOW the parable has no basis in truth or fact after verse 22 according to WTS teachings.

              Is that your view of the passage?

              There is also this from one of their books: "Jesus generally drew his illustrations from the surrounding creation, from familiar customs of everyday life, from occasional happenings or not-impossible situations, and from recent events well known to his hearers."

              Is that something you agree with? It, of course, is NOT indicative of how they view Luke 16:19-31, the majority of which they say is an impossible situation.
              Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                Since this is the JW forum, it would be helpful if you'd weigh in with a reply to what I asked because I'm asking you about JW beliefs, as my prior post indicated:

                The JW view of Luke 16:19-31 is that everything after verse 22 could never happen, will never happen, and has never happened. IOW the parable has no basis in truth or fact after verse 22 according to WTS teachings.

                Is that your view of the passage?

                There is also this from one of their books: "Jesus generally drew his illustrations from the surrounding creation, from familiar customs of everyday life, from occasional happenings or not-impossible situations, and from recent events well known to his hearers."

                Is that something you agree with? It, of course, is NOT indicative of how they view Luke 16:19-31, the majority of which they say is an impossible situation.
                Hollywood, I'll answer your questions, but part of a good debate is having all parties answer the questions they are asked. There are questions above that remain unanswered by you.

                I don't believe anything after verse 22 represents literal reality...though I think it represented something similar to what was popular in the Greek culture of the times. The people of the day were quite familiar with the Greek concept of an underground afterlife with various chambers of reward and punishment....though it was at odds with scripture (check out Tartarus and Elysium at the following link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_underworld). I think the parable was intended to be understood as non-literal by his disciples. Here's a suggestion: what if both the rich man and Abraham with Lazarus are both (in this parable) in different underground chambers...one being punished below and the others rewarded in an upper chamber. After all, can anyone literally call from the underground all the way up to heaven and talk to another person? (do you suggest that is literally happening?) Easier to conceive as I describe it I think. By the way, was heaven mentioned in this parable?

                Do you think that Abraham is literally in heaven? If you're going to teach that this parable is based on a literal situation, then you'll need to assert that as fact. What say you?

                My opinion is that Christians would be better off recognizing this parable as a non-literal story (likely alluding to the pop culture of the day) used to teach a spiritual lesson, as opposed to force-fitting its literalness to try and teach doctrine.

                Getting back to the original question: being asleep in the grave is a figure indicating the potential for future resurrection. Do you suggest people are literally sleeping in the grave? Or is that a figure used for teaching which is based on a non-literal physical reality?

                Thanks for the discussion.
                Last edited by B Student; 09-09-18, 07:41 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by B Student View Post

                  Hi Hollywood.

                  I’ve heard that argument before. Let’s think for a bit. What you’re trying to assert is that every spiritual teaching of God is based on a literal physical reality. Is that something we want to try to confine ourselves to when reading scriptures?

                  How about the following examples:

                  Matt 6:19 - Do you think you are currently saving up literal treasure in heaven? Or does that treasure represent something symbolic?

                  Matt 22: 1-14 - Did this parable ever play out literally? Did it play out symbolically?

                  Rev 13: 1-2 - Are you expecting a literal 7 headed beast with 10 horns, feet like a bear and mouth like a lion?

                  Rev 16 - Is the wrath of God being poured out using literal bowls from heaven?

                  Luke 11:25 – Do evil spirits look for literal houses that are literally swept and put in order so they can relax on nice clean beds?

                  Can you show me some verses that say every spiritual teaching of God is based on a literal physical reality?

                  I think what is really important in parables and prophecies are the lessons behind the stories and symbols. Why is there a need for every spiritual lesson to be based on a physical reality?

                  Thanks.
                  B Student, you asked about several scriptures. Let's look at them.

                  Originally posted by B Student View Post
                  Matt 6:19 - Do you think you are currently saving up literal treasure in heaven? Or does that treasure represent something symbolic?
                  Easy-peasy: “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal

                  Just as physical treasures are stored up on earth and are subject to moth and rust and thief; so too are spiritual treasures stored up in heaven where they are NOT subject to those things that can ruin or take away physical earthly treasures.

                  As with all of Jesus’ parables, just as physical illustration is true so is the spiritual lesson it reveals.

                  Originally posted by B Student View Post
                  Matt 22: 1-14 - Did this parable ever play out literally? Did it play out symbolically?
                  Is this not exactly what the WTS has said Jesus’ parables are? Drawn “from familiar customs of everyday life, from occasional happenings or not-impossible situations, and from recent events well known to his hearers.”

                  Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3 And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4 Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ 5 But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8 Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ 10 Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.
                  11 “But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

                  Question for you, B Student: Are there any parts of this parable that could never happen?

                  Originally posted by B Student View Post
                  Rev 13: 1-2 - Are you expecting a literal 7 headed beast with 10 horns, feet like a bear and mouth like a lion?
                  Rev 16 - Is the wrath of God being poured out using literal bowls from heaven?
                  Unlike parables, these two accounts are visions, not parables, and visions have different parameters than parables do.

                  Originally posted by B Student View Post
                  Luke 11:25 – Do evil spirits look for literal houses that are literally swept and put in order so they can relax on nice clean beds?
                  Well, let’s see what it says there because I missed the part about the comfy beds:

                  “When the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding any, it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ 25 And when it comes, it finds it swept and put in order. 26 Then it goes and takes along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first.”

                  Evil spirits can certainly inhabit houses, but context shows that what is being referred to is a man, a person. You wouldn’t be saying none of this could ever happen are you, as JWs say about Luke 19-22-31?

                  Originally posted by B Student View Post
                  Can you show me some verses that say every spiritual teaching of God is based on a literal physical reality?

                  I think what is really important in parables and prophecies are the lessons behind the stories and symbols. Why is there a need for every spiritual lesson to be based on a physical reality?
                  Look again at what I said: All of Jesus' parables are based on real life, on events that could and did happen. No less with Luke 16:19-31. And with what the WTS has said about the illustrations (parables) Jesus employed. Both views show literally true events equal spiritual truths.

                  That's what a parable is, laying two truths alongside each other so that as one is true, so is the other. ALL of Jesus' parables show this.


                  Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by B Student View Post

                    Hollywood, I'll answer your questions, but part of a good debate is having all parties answer the questions they are asked. There are questions above that remain unanswered by you.

                    I don't believe anything after verse 22 represents literal reality...though I think it represented something similar to what was popular in the Greek culture of the times. The people of the day were quite familiar with the Greek concept of an underground afterlife with various chambers of reward and punishment....though it was at odds with scripture (check out Tartarus and Elysium at the following link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_underworld). I think the parable was intended to be understood as non-literal by his disciples. Here's a suggestion: what if both the rich man and Abraham with Lazarus are both (in this parable) in different underground chambers...one being punished below and the others rewarded in an upper chamber. After all, can anyone literally call from the underground all the way up to heaven and talk to another person? (do you suggest that is literally happening?) Easier to conceive as I describe it I think. By the way, was heaven mentioned in this parable?

                    Do you think that Abraham is literally in heaven? If you're going to teach that this parable is based on a literal situation, then you'll need to assert that as fact. What say you?

                    My opinion is that Christians would be better off recognizing this parable as a non-literal story (likely alluding to the pop culture of the day) used to teach a spiritual lesson, as opposed to force-fitting its literalness to try and teach doctrine.

                    Getting back to the original question: being asleep in the grave is a figure indicating the potential for future resurrection. Do you suggest people are literally sleeping in the grave? Or is that a figure used for teaching which is based on a non-literal physical reality?

                    Thanks for the discussion.
                    Let's get this out of the way first. Am I having this good debate with a JW? If not, we'll have to move it to a different forum.

                    If most of Luke 16:19-31 is based on events that could never happen, then any spiritual lesson learned from it also could never happen, The WTS has two opposing views on this, one of which is that Jesus would never have used false teachings in his parables, the other view is that he would and did. If you are a JW, we can discuss them here.

                    Yes, Abraham is literally in heaven, as are all faithful believers since Jesus' death, however the parable of the rich man and Lazarus illustrates events that took place before that.
                    Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm simply trying to point out that non-literal realities are sued to teach spiritual lessons. Is your treasure in heaven literal? Yes or no?

                      Is the inside of a person literally swept and cleaned? Yes or no?

                      I appreciate that there are many more details in Luke 16, however I'd like to know if you think every detail needs to be literal? Yes or no?

                      Who exactly defined "could ever happen" as a criteria for interpreting parables? Is that clearly defined in scripture, or is it possible that you are insisting on this criteria because it fits your already established views?

                      You have to include "what could possibly happen" in your list of criteria because so many of the parables are based on stories that have never happened, and never will literally happen.

                      At best you are trying to make an argument from silence; i.e. what YOU perceive to be the absence of parables that fit a certain criteria means that it is impossible for any parable to be otherwise. I hope you appreciate that such arguments are generally considered weak. Take this quote:

                      "To make an argument from silence (Latin: argumentum ex silentio) is to express a conclusion that is based on the absence of statements in historical documents, rather than their presence.[2][3] In the field of classical studies, it often refers to the assertion that an author is ignorant of a subject, based on the lack of references to it in the author's available writings.[3]

                      Thus in historical analysis with an argument from silence, the absence of a reference to an event or a document is used to cast doubt on the event not mentioned.[4] While most historical approaches rely on what an author's works contain, an argument from silence relies on what the book or document does not contain.[4] This approach thus uses what an author "should have said" rather than what is available in the author's extant writings.[4][5]

                      ….arguments from silence themselves are also generally viewed as rather weak in many cases; or considered as fallacies.[1][8]"
                      -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence

                      I also await answers to my other questions based on Luke 16.

                      Thanks for the discussion.





                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by B Student View Post
                        I'm simply trying to point out that non-literal realities are sued to teach spiritual lessons. Is your treasure in heaven literal? Yes or no?

                        Is the inside of a person literally swept and cleaned? Yes or no?

                        I appreciate that there are many more details in Luke 16, however I'd like to know if you think every detail needs to be literal? Yes or no?

                        Who exactly defined "could ever happen" as a criteria for interpreting parables? Is that clearly defined in scripture, or is it possible that you are insisting on this criteria because it fits your already established views?

                        You have to include "what could possibly happen" in your list of criteria because so many of the parables are based on stories that have never happened, and never will literally happen.

                        At best you are trying to make an argument from silence; i.e. what YOU perceive to be the absence of parables that fit a certain criteria means that it is impossible for any parable to be otherwise. I hope you appreciate that such arguments are generally considered weak. Take this quote:

                        "To make an argument from silence (Latin: argumentum ex silentio) is to express a conclusion that is based on the absence of statements in historical documents, rather than their presence.[2][3] In the field of classical studies, it often refers to the assertion that an author is ignorant of a subject, based on the lack of references to it in the author's available writings.[3]

                        Thus in historical analysis with an argument from silence, the absence of a reference to an event or a document is used to cast doubt on the event not mentioned.[4] While most historical approaches rely on what an author's works contain, an argument from silence relies on what the book or document does not contain.[4] This approach thus uses what an author "should have said" rather than what is available in the author's extant writings.[4][5]

                        ….arguments from silence themselves are also generally viewed as rather weak in many cases; or considered as fallacies.[1][8]"
                        -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence

                        I also await answers to my other questions based on Luke 16.

                        Thanks for the discussion.




                        Are you a JW?
                        Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                          Are you a JW?
                          I share several beliefs with them (generally including the topic of this thread), as such I believe this post belongs here and is relevant for JWs to read and contribute to. If I am wrong and any formal JW member is bothered please simply indicate that you would prefer this thread be moved. Thank you.

                          By the way, none of my posts or questions are intended to be pushy, or to come across that way. I think this is a useful topic for this board to discuss and I'd simply like to see all the answers that you have.

                          Humbly yours.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by B Student View Post

                            I share several beliefs with them (generally including the topic of this thread), as such I believe this post belongs here and is relevant for JWs to read and contribute to. If I am wrong and any formal JW member is bothered please simply indicate that you would prefer this thread be moved. Thank you.

                            By the way, none of my posts or questions are intended to be pushy, or to come across that way. I think this is a useful topic for this board to discuss and I'd simply like to see all the answers that you have.

                            Humbly yours.
                            So "B Student"? Is that "Bible Student", as in a follower of C.T. Russell?

                            Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be using "literal" as meaning "physical".
                            Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                              So "B Student"? Is that "Bible Student", as in a follower of C.T. Russell?

                              Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be using "literal" as meaning "physical".
                              I suppose I was trying to use it as it is typically defined. I will illustrate what I mean by ‘literal’ using a couple of the examples in question:

                              Mat 6:19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.”

                              The treasure in the context of this parable does appear to be physical since a robber could steal them. The ‘literal’ reading of this figure (which you could liken to a parable) is that when you store your treasure on earth, thieves can break in and get it, but when you store it in heaven its kept safe from robbery or corruption by God.

                              I don’t believe Christians are storing up physical treasures (as described in this figure/parable) in heaven where God is keeping them safe for us, rather I think the treasures in this figure are symbolic of grace and blessing from God. As such those blessing don’t need to be ‘literally’ stored away in heaven; blessing can be given to us from above right here on earth. The grace and favor of God can be stolen by no robber, even if we were surrounded by them.

                              I see how we are not seeing eye-to-eye on this figure/parable though. You think there is a change in the subject matter of treasure just because it is located in heaven. I think you might be doing that because you are so familiar with the parable you don’t even realize you’re doing it. If Jesus was switching the subject matter from physical treasure to non-physical blessing, wouldn’t he have just said, but store up for yourselves blessings which can’t be stolen? If Christ intended to switch the subject matter from physical treasure (which can be stolen) to non-physical treasure (which cannot be stolen) why would he bother to mention it was to be stored in heaven if non-physical blessings can’t be stolen anywhere (earth or heaven)?

                              Example 2

                              Luke 11:24 “When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and finding none it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ 25 And when it comes, it finds the house swept and put in order. 26 Then it goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there. And the last state of that person is worse than the first.”

                              When I said that the person’s insides are not literally swept and put in-order I meant that the cleaning chores one normally performs on a house were not performed on the insides of the person in this parable. The house cleaning chores performed on the person were symbolic of changes in belief and behaviour. Jesus did not intend anyone to take him to be ‘literally’ saying that the person of the parable swept and cleaned his insides.

                              The teachings of the Bible (not just prophecy) sometimes use figures which do not represent what actually happens to a person.

                              The original topic of this thread was what it means to sleep in the grave. I think you’d agree that people do not sleep in the grave. You cannot ‘literally’ sleep and be dead at the same time. Sleeping is used as a figure (i.e. non-literal) to help us understand that there will be a day when the dead are resurrected. I offered John 11:11-25, Dan 12:2, Acts 13:36, 1Cor 15:51, 1Tim 4:13-16 as evidence of this figurative way of teaching. I don’t think you believe people are ‘literally’ sleeping in the grave. Do you?

                              Lastly, you asked if I am a follower of C.T. Russell. I admit that’s a good guess. Not what I intended though with the name…..I meant that I am ‘literally’ a Bible Student J

                              Comment

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