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Do Jw's deny Christ physical resurection?

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  • Do Jw's deny Christ physical resurection?

    I was pondering through some literature and came across a comment that stated that JW's by denying Christ physical resurrection was likened to early Gnostics. AS you are aware Gnostics denied the resurrection of Christ .
    So were does that fit into the WTS tenets?

    The WTS teach that Christ did resurrect, but the methodology differs from Christendom in many ways. How so? Christ cried out to his father" receive my spirit" and in that instant Christ fleshly body was disposed and replaced with a glorified one. WTS reasoning is based on Jewish sacrificial rituals that all carcases have sin hence are disposed of . Furthermore the WTS teach that Jehovah disposed of Christ carcass because likened to Moses it would not be worshiped.

    I reason this : What is a glorified body? Is it flesh OR is it Spirit or is it both? There is debate as to Christ new glorified form. Did God blind there eyes literally? OR were they blinded in not recognising the new Christ?
    I reason that Christ would have to look different ,Why so? For a start... it could not be flesh and blood as that would not suite a heavenly abode, beside Christ blood was already shed. One thing for certain is this : Christ body would have to be a spirit form eventually after the 40 days so that he could ascend into heaven. So why the fuss?

    There is an unfounded rumour that JW's teach the resurrected Christ transformed back into Michael the archangel. I can assure you that that is not the case . A WTS article unequivocally stated that in no shape of form was Christ an incarnation of Michael, but possessed his own unique personality.
    Conclusion.
    Providing all of Christ DNA, his complete person, marks and all resurrected Just because his flesh was disposed does not mean that he wasn't resurrected.
    Note: Early creeds did not mention "Fleshly" resurrection as a mandate for believing Christians It was to be added later in light of the Arian controversy.

    Blessings
    Last edited by livewire; 08-01-13, 06:34 AM.

  • #2
    Can you teach us how to " ponder " through " literature " one day ?
    oh and btw, was it YOU who was making the " comment " in the " pondering " ?
    Joh 8:45 But as for me, because I tell the truth you don't believe me.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by livewire View Post
      There is an unfounded rumour that JW's teach the resurrected Christ transformed back into Michael the archangel. I can assure you that that is not the case . A WTS article unequivocally stated that in no shape of form was Christ an incarnation of Michael, but possessed his own unique personality.
      LW,It isn't an "unfounded rumor"."There is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return." (The Watchtower; 5/15/1969; pp. 307)
      Best Regards,
      Dave Sherrill

      Comment


      • #4
        There is no scripture that supports what you claim.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Dave Sherrill View Post
          LW,It isn't an "unfounded rumor"."There is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return." (The Watchtower; 5/15/1969; pp. 307)

          Also:

          *** rs p. 218 par. 3 Jesus Christ ***
          "So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God."

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by thomas dickensheets
            1. They use 1 Pet. 3:18 where it says that Christ was "put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit" as an attempt to show that Jesus was not raised physically, but as a kind of spirit creature.
            Their use of the scripture to support their position is incorrect because this verse does not say that He was raised a spirit creature. It says that He was "made alive in the spirit." What does that mean? Quite simply, it means that Jesus was raised in an imperishable body. This is what 1 Cor. 15:35-45 says when it refers to the body as being sown perishable, but raised imperishable; sown in dishonor and raised in glory; sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body, etc. Jesus was the "Last Adam", a life giving spirit. Paul is typifying the resurrection body. In this passage Paul is talking about the resurrection of all people. All Christians will be raised in physical bodies. It is said the same of Jesus.
            JW’s believe in a resurrection as depicted in the earliest creeds, that is a “ Bodily Resurrection” It was however in later creeds that the word “ Bodily” was rendered fleshly to fit RCC dogma. This writer from Christendom states>
            “Because the gospels and this creed are the early testimony of eyewitnesses (not to mention that these eyewitnesses have been shown to be trustworthy), the theory that the resurrection is a myth or legend can be ruled out“
            So we have confirmation that the earliest Apostles creed was sufficient enough to establish confirmation as to Christ “ Bodily “ resurrection.
            What WTS teach>

            JW’s believe that the soul is not a composite of flesh and spirit but one of the same , yet agree that when the soul dies the flesh goes back to dust and the spirit back to the father. The spirit is not a tangible thing. In regards to Christ resurrection, they teach that all of Christ body both flesh and spirit died but have a record in Gods memory.

            In modern day terms we all have a black box recorder, of which is updated constantly in Gods hard dive. He can access it anytime as the connection is always there.Romans states: The spirit bears witness with our spirit . As with the Christ, God completely transformed him in a glorified state everything to the finniest of a hair.

            Yes you are correct Christ after his resurrection and before he ascended into Heaven was not a spirit But was given a body as Mark explains to be a new "form" thus un recognisable.
            God blinded there eyes. How so?

            Mary Magdalene recognised him from his voice and Peter by his stance. And others by his unique style of bread breaking.
            Many apologist have tried to explain what constitutes a glorified body?

            Some say it was flesh and bones, without blood as Christ had already shed his blood once and for all hence no need to retain it. Some say that he could not be the exact same person as flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven .Some argue that Christ was the exact same and that God simply blinded there eyes as not to recognize him. Some even say that there are only three options--the disciples hallucinated, lied, or really encountered the bodily risen Christ.

            Blessings

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Dave Sherrill View Post
              LW,It isn't an "unfounded rumor"."There is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return." (The Watchtower; 5/15/1969; pp. 307)
              Greetings , let us reason.
              As you are aware, the WTS pride themselves in change as to them all revelation gets brighter thus views and even tenets have been completely discarded or altered. One tenet that has been corrected is regards to the above WT 1969.

              New revelation on Christ Jesus… our raining King.
              The WTS have articulated that Christ Jesus in his human form, no way shape or form an incarnation of his previous existence ( Michael).

              WTS April 2010 The Man who changed the World Sub heading What Jesus taught about himself states Paragraphs 1 -3
              “The Son of man” “Jesus used this expression more than any other to refer ,to himself ( Mathew 8:22 ) He thus showed that he was neither a materialized angel nor an incarnation Ruther he was fully Human. By his holy spirit, God transferred his Son’s life from heaven to earth, causing conception in the womb of the virgin girl Mary. As a result, Jesus was born as a perfect , sinless human -Mathew 1:18 Luke 1:35; john 8;46“.
              __________________________________________________ ________________

              I reason that the above thought precedes the old speculation which states
              Insight book: Jesus Christ page 59 Sub heading His Baptism

              God’s spirit poured out upon Jesus doubtless illuminated his mind on many points. His own expressions thereafter, and particularly the intimate prayer to his Father on the Passover night 33 C>E. show that Jesus recalled his pre-human existence and the things he had seen his father do. As well as the glory that he himself had enjoyed in the heavens. ( Jon 6:46;7:28, 29; 8:26, 28, 38; 14:2; 17:5 )”

              Furthermore, I reason, It may well have been that the memory of past events were restored to Christ at his baptism by Holy Spirit but by what means is the subject of this discussion. Note; the words- “It may well have been” which is not a definite phrase and therefore leaves open more insight as in this case.

              To unveil this mystery, one needs to articulate the word incarnation!
              The franklin dictionary states the meaning as follows>
              1 ) An incarnation (noun ) is the embodiment of a deity or spirit in an earthly form.
              So according to the definition of the word incarnation, it is not possible for Christ to have any memory of past experiences, as this would constitute an embodiment of the mind ,which can only be of one nature……at one time!
              Jesus is our example, all of what he did is what we can do also.
              If as suggested, that Christ had the mind of Michael, his previous POWERFUL entity, would place Jesus in privileged position having an array of experience to draw from. (The dispute over Moses body ) an advantage not available to we humans
              Also, If this were the case, I’m sure that Satan would have had something to say! as in Jesus overcoming human frailty as flesh and blood ….. fully Human!.

              Yes, its true that the Holy Spirit poured out on Jesus many points, but Christ expressions enhanced by Holy Spirit recalled to his HUMAN mind events and prophesies obtained from his complete memory of the five books of the torah. Furthermore, Jesus was well instructed by his parents who new of his special status and directed his pathway to that of the written prophecies .
              ‘What lessons do we learn from this new light”?
              We too can overcome , if we like Christ study Gods inspired word the Bible, and if we could memorise it as well as Jesus did, no doubt would be a tremendous advantage especially when applied in pray and the pouring out of Gods Holy Spirit.
              Furthermore, It has to be appreciated that Jesus earthly parents had a lot to play in Gods divine plan. How so?
              They instructed him and lead his pathway. We too have our earthly parents to instruct our children, but also as an added bonus, God has graciously granted to us our spiritual parents, the faithful and discrete slave, who with God direction is likened to a mother with instinctive insights and direction in leading us into the paths of righteousness.
              So brothers, let us not even consider that Christ was a incarnation, as Christendom articulate in there heresy - Christ being GOD… Patripassianism
              Warning! The franklin dictionary also states :
              Incarnation is the union of divine and human natures in Jesus Christ
              Let it not be said that Michael is in union with Christ by divine and human natures NO! only that his obedience and free will in serving his father as fully human( Not God ) was achieved having no more advantage than you or I .
              If Christ can do it….then so can we .

              This is not cut and past but from Livewire.
              I encourage all JW's to read this .

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by gwen View Post
                Also:

                *** rs p. 218 par. 3 Jesus Christ ***
                "So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God."

                The association between Christ and Michael are likened to the Trinitarian concept How so? That the father and Christ share the same union, known as the duel personalities of God.
                Slimily, Michael and Christ also have a common link, But like the father and Son both are independent in there rolls.
                I reason the link is more likened to a inherited linage from which all DNA is one of the same from the one source .

                WTS teach that Christ had a pre-human existence as Gods first born.

                ( Proverbs 8 22-33 )hence; there is the linage. But Christ was the Son and not God therefore was a separate person who was subordinate and thus obedient to his fathers will !! Because he was a spirit creature he held a position as the chief archangel known as Michael These angelic entities were known by humans as “gods”.
                When Christ was transformed into Mary‘s womb by Gods Holy Spirit, he became another complete unique entity with no direct association to his past. His only bond was that of his inherited linage. When he became Lord of Lords he gained another title far above that of any angel OR position he once held. Christ while on earth had no idea of his pre-human experiences only from what he had read ( about himself ) and was taught by his parents. When he gained the holy spirit all understanding of all that he read and was taught came to mind .

                Blessings

                Comment


                • #9
                  From the 4/11/2011 Kingdom Minitry:

                  *** km 4/11 p. 1 Schedule for Week of April 11 ***
                  □ Theocratic Ministry School:
                  Bible reading: Job 21-27 (10 min.)
                  No. 1: Job 25:1–26:14 (4 min. or less)
                  No. 2: Why the Cross Should Not Be Viewed as an Object of Devotion (5 min.)
                  No. 3: Is Jesus Christ the Same Person as Michael the Archangel?rs p. 218 1-3



                  *** rs p. 218 par. 3 Jesus Christ ***
                  So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.


                  From the “What Does The Bible Really Teach” book, published by the WBTS in 2005:

                  *** bh p. 219 par. 1 Who Is Michael the Archangel? ***
                  Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven—one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus—it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.

                  And from the 2011 WT


                  *** w11 9/1 pp. 8-9 The World’s Secret Ruler Exposed ***
                  The Devil’s Last Gasp
                  Christ’s activity on earth in the first century sounded the death knell for the Devil and his demons. When Jesus’ disciples related how they had cast out unseen demons, he told them: “I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven.” (Luke 10:18) With those words, Jesus was rejoicing at his future victory over the ruler of the world, to take place once Jesus was back in heaven as Michael the archangel. (Revelation 12:7-9) A thorough study of Bible prophecies indicates that this victory took place in heaven in or shortly after 1914.
                  Last edited by gwen; 08-01-13, 07:03 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by gwen View Post
                    From the 4/11/2011 Kingdom Minitry:

                    *** km 4/11 p. 1 Schedule for Week of April 11 ***
                    □ Theocratic Ministry School:
                    Bible reading: Job 21-27 (10 min.)
                    No. 1: Job 25:1–26:14 (4 min. or less)
                    No. 2: Why the Cross Should Not Be Viewed as an Object of Devotion (5 min.)
                    No. 3: Is Jesus Christ the Same Person as Michael the Archangel?—rs p. 218 1-3



                    *** rs p. 218 par. 3 Jesus Christ ***
                    So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.


                    From the “What Does The Bible Really Teach” book, published by the WBTS in 2005:

                    *** bh p. 219 par. 1 Who Is Michael the Archangel? ***
                    Since God’s Word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven—one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus—it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role.

                    And from the 2011 WT


                    *** w11 9/1 pp. 8-9 The World’s Secret Ruler Exposed ***
                    The Devil’s Last Gasp
                    Christ’s activity on earth in the first century sounded the death knell for the Devil and his demons. When Jesus’ disciples related how they had cast out unseen demons, he told them: “I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven.” (Luke 10:18) With those words, Jesus was rejoicing at his future victory over the ruler of the world, to take place once Jesus was back in heaven as Michael the archangel. (Revelation 12:7-9) A thorough study of Bible prophecies indicates that this victory took place in heaven in or shortly after 1914.
                    *** bh p. 219 par. 1 Who Is Michael the Archangel? ***
                    Who Is Michael the Archangel? as in his heavenly roll was past not present.
                    Let us reason.

                    Christ known as Michael does not indicate a title. Just as your Sir name does not indicate your Christian name, which is you. It is from an in heritage linage that the name Michael is referred.

                    JW's please take note: This precedent is a very sore point with me, please open your ears and take it in. It is an affront to name Christ anything other than his new well deserved title.
                    Christ has gained a position well above that of his previous one , not Michael chief archangel BUT Jesus Christ King of Kings Lord of Lords our high priest and head of the church. Likened to the rank from private to major .One would not dare to address a Major as a private , so neither does one address Christ as Michael! Christ old title was past history and is only brought up because of the WTS tenets regarding Johns vision as in Michael the Angel battling with the dragon and the 1914 debacle


                    once Jesus was back in heaven as Michael the archangel. (Revelation 12:7-9) A thorough study of Bible prophecies indicates that this victory took place in heaven in or shortly after 1914


                    Jesus will never be Michael archangel!

                    This tenet gives rise and speculation that Christ was resurrected as Michael spirit entity. When will the WTS learn that this tenet ( 1914 ) is divisive! Did not the generation debacle expose its flaws? Wake up my brothers, It does not honour Christ nor does it respect his sacrifice and obedience to his fathers will as a man to name him from his past rank just to suit an ancient tenant propagated by one who has made countless of errors. ( Rutherford).
                    The tenet of the one true God Jehovah can be compromised by the speculation ( and that's all it is ) that Michael will one day rain as King.



                    Blessings
                    Last edited by livewire; 08-01-13, 07:28 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      So you too can live without sinning? Good Luck

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        WTS reasoning is based on Jewish sacrificial rituals that all carcases have sin hence are disposed of .
                        - - - I doubt the veracity of that statement because, Jews did not dispose of carcases ie. cremate them. Most if not all Jewish bodies were buried. Furthermore, whatever is meant by "have sin", Job said that He expected to be physically resurrected. I think we can assume that from Job 19:25
                        -
                        For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth - Job 19:25

                        - - - As I understand it, JWs believe that Christ was "resurrected spiritually", whatever that is. The least that can be said, is that according to them, it was not visible, but that clearly contradicts the plain statements in the NT that Jesus had a physical body with scars on it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by chtek View Post
                          - - - I doubt the veracity of that statement because, Jews did not dispose of carcases ie. cremate them. Most if not all Jewish bodies were buried. Furthermore, whatever is meant by "have sin", Job said that He expected to be physically resurrected. I think we can assume that from Job 19:25
                          -
                          For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth - Job 19:25

                          - - - As I understand it, JWs believe that Christ was "resurrected spiritually", whatever that is. The least that can be said, is that according to them, it was not visible, but that clearly contradicts the plain statements in the NT that Jesus had a physical body with scars on it.

                          Sounds like Jesus right now has a body Doesn't a man have a body " flesh and bone


                          1 Timothy 2

                          King James Version (KJV)


                          2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

                          2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

                          3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

                          4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

                          5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, [SIZE=4]the man Christ Jesus;[/SIZE]
                          And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you ... ye shall curse them; And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies (Doctrine and Covenants, 103:24-25)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Paul at 1 Timothy 2.5 is just drawing attention to the fact that is was as a man that Jesus lived and died a sinless death and its this that made the person the mediator between the "one God" and "men."

                            Jesus no longer has a body made of dust which is what a 'flesh and bone' body is. 1 Corinthians 15.47

                            Note that Jesus is neither this "one God" of Christians and the "men" he is the "mediator" between. No, Jesus is not Paul's God.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by chtek View Post
                              - - - I doubt the veracity of that statement because, Jews did not dispose of carcases ie. cremate them. Most if not all Jewish bodies were buried. Furthermore, whatever is meant by "have sin", Job said that He expected to be physically resurrected. I think we can assume that from Job 19:25
                              -
                              For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth - Job 19:25

                              - - - As I understand it, JWs believe that Christ was "resurrected spiritually", whatever that is. The least that can be said, is that according to them, it was not visible, but that clearly contradicts the plain statements in the NT that Jesus had a physical body with scars on it.

                              Jews did not dispose of carcases ie. cremate them.????

                              The normal form of blood manipulation for the burnt offering was relatively simple: the priest would "splash it around on the altar" ( Lev 1:5 ). This was not just a way of disposing of the blood, but a way of offering it on the altar. It corresponded to arranging the pieces of the animal's carcass on the altar ( Lev 1:8-9 ).


                              "to burn all of it on the altar"

                              That indicates a cremation....does it not!

                              The offerer normally slaughtered the animal, but the priests placed its various parts on the altar fire ( Lev 1:7-9a ) "to burn all of it on the altar" as a "burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the Lord" (v. 9b). The basic principle behind the burnt offering was that the whole animal was offered on the altar, that is, with the exception of the hide of the larger animals that had been skinned as part of the slaughtering process ( Lev 1:6 ; 7:8 ) and "the crop" of the birds "with its contents" ( Lev 1:16 ).
                              Christ was the Lamb to the slaughter likened to a small animal of which his blood was shed across the alter hence, symbolised the blood as the atonement of sin.
                              Cremation symbolises the complete disposal of a carcass for which all sin has perished.

                              As I have explained, Christ resurrection was two foal The first from the cross, the other to heaven.
                              In the first instance Christ would have to have a temporal body to suite a material world .The Bible does not specifically say what it was made of, only that it was glorified. The second embodiment would have to take on a spiritual structure so that Christ could ascend into heaven. As for his scares I reason this: Do they have a purpose after Thomas? The rumour that they still exist comes from Revelations : "Look there is the Lamb of God who was slaughtered " The term slaughter by many indicates scarring, but to my mind that is not evidential but speculation.
                              I reason if one were to have a new body would it not be perfect!

                              Blessings
                              Last edited by livewire; 08-02-13, 05:19 PM.

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