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Do Jw's deny Christ physical resurection?

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  • Originally posted by livewire View Post
    There is only three opinions as regards to Christology's doctrines. Your opinion, my opinion and the truth.

    Thank you for your kind words, but I already have discovered Christ in my life and have learned a lot of truths by the art of inquiry as likened to the Beorans.
    What I have learned as the WTS theology , is that Jehovah/ Yahweh is the only true God the Father and is the pre-eminent monarch. Further inquiry's have lead me to conclude that the present day trinity is not that of the original articulated by Tertullian ( 200 AD ) who taught that Christ was internally generated as wisdom personified thus was subordinate. He also taught that there is only one father. All of what he established in his trinitus theory has been changed by Athanasius in response to the Arian controversy. Todays trinity is adopted from a modalistic theology. I can say this from my 5 years study with the Oneness theology. I truly believe that I wouldn't have had such a lengthily debate on this topic if those who claim to be true Trinitarians understood there theology.
    Blessings.
    And Watchtower lie!

    Comment


    • Bump

      Originally posted by civic View Post
      Without the bodily resurrection which was permanent one has no Savior and you are still in your sins.

      Luke 24:37-43
      37 But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." 40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.

      John 20:24-25
      24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."

      John 20:27-28
      27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

      There is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (Tim 2:5) post ascension.

      Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.(Heb 13:5)

      1 Cor 15:1-8
      Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

      3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

      1 Cor 15:14-18
      14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

      2 Cor 5:1-10
      For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

      6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him.


      Look up the meaning of the word soma below, it always means a physical body in relation to anthropos(man).

      His Body.....Phill. 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

      3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

      Matt 27:52-53
      52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

      Phil 3:20-21
      And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

      1 Cor 15:44-45
      44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

      Hope this helps,
      Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by livewire View Post
        I was pondering through some literature and came across a comment that stated that JW's by denying Christ physical resurrection was likened to early Gnostics. AS you are aware Gnostics denied the resurrection of Christ .
        So were does that fit into the WTS tenets?

        The WTS teach that Christ did resurrect, but the methodology differs from Christendom in many ways. How so? Christ cried out to his father" receive my spirit" and in that instant Christ fleshly body was disposed and replaced with a glorified one. WTS reasoning is based on Jewish sacrificial rituals that all carcases have sin hence are disposed of . Furthermore the WTS teach that Jehovah disposed of Christ carcass because likened to Moses it would not be worshiped.

        I reason this : What is a glorified body? Is it flesh OR is it Spirit or is it both? There is debate as to Christ new glorified form. Did God blind there eyes literally? OR were they blinded in not recognising the new Christ?
        I reason that Christ would have to look different ,Why so? For a start... it could not be flesh and blood as that would not suite a heavenly abode, beside Christ blood was already shed. One thing for certain is this : Christ body would have to be a spirit form eventually after the 40 days so that he could ascend into heaven. So why the fuss?

        There is an unfounded rumour that JW's teach the resurrected Christ transformed back into Michael the archangel. I can assure you that that is not the case . A WTS article unequivocally stated that in no shape of form was Christ an incarnation of Michael, but possessed his own unique personality.
        Conclusion.
        Providing all of Christ DNA, his complete person, marks and all resurrected Just because his flesh was disposed does not mean that he wasn't resurrected.
        Note: Early creeds did not mention "Fleshly" resurrection as a mandate for believing Christians It was to be added later in light of the Arian controversy.

        Blessings
        The JW's deny Luke 24:39.

        They calling Jesus a liar!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Nathan p View Post
          What is the problem here? I did not say the Word was the father, but that the father would be the father in the example. I used the exact same language or the meaning of john 1:1 in my example. The point is if the father is the father in my example, then God is God at john 1:1.
          So Jesus is false god in NWT John 1:1.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Friday View Post
            The question was: Do Jw's deny Christ physical resurection?

            The answer is: Sadly, yes JWs do deny that Jesus' body came back to life.

            Happily, however, JWs do know that Jesus went to Heaven as a spirit.

            .
            You don't believe Jesus is God in the flesh! You are going to hell! Case closed!

            Comment


            • Resurrection of Jesus
              1. If Jesus was resurrected as an invisible spirit, like the Watchtower teaches, why did Jesus say he was going to raise his physical body from the dead (John 2:19-22)?
              2. If Jesus, the man, ceased to exist at his death and was raised from the dead as Michael the Archangel, why did Michael deceive the apostles into believing that they were witnessing Jesus in a resurrected physical body (Luke 24:39)?
              3. If Jesus is now living in heaven as an invisible spirit creature, like the Watchtower teaches, why did Paul write many years after the ascension of Christ that he is dwelling in heaven in a physical body (Colossians 2:9)? Note: The Greek word, somatikos, means physical, tangible body.
              4. If Jesus is now Michael the Archangel, why does 1 Timothy 2:5 say that the mediator between God and men is the man, Christ Jesus, and not the spirit, Michael the Archangel?
              5. Can you show me a verse in the bible that clearly says Jesus is the Archangel Michael? How can Jesus be Michael since Hebrews chapter 1 stresses the superiority of Jesus over the angels and that all the angels worship him? Why would Jehovah command that the entire angelic realm worship another angel? Note: The Watchtower bible changes the word worship, in Hebrews 1:6, to “do obeisance to”. However, see section below on the New World Translation.

              Comment


              • The Jehovah's Witnesses make the same mistake the disciples did even with the Bible in their hands to correct them. Jesus' grave was empty with only the linens left. There are no Scriptures used to validate a spirit resurrection rather than a bodily one. Nowhere does Jesus say I'm spirit instead he makes it clear he is flesh and bone. Some of the discrepancies that people often use to support this position are found in the Emmaus road encounter where the disciples did not recognize Jesus. We need to realize that they were in a state of distress, shock, fear, and unbelief of His resurrection. This became apparent after he revealed himself to them. Luke 24:16 in the beginning of his encounter tells us that “their eyes were restrained so they did not know Him.” This possibly could refer to the fact that Jesus was not revealing himself to them because of their unbelief even after they were testified to His resurrection by the women. So he was trying to draw them into faith, as he states in v. 25. “O foolish ones and slow of heart to believe in all the prophets have spoken.” In verses 30-31 He blessed and broke bread with them, and then “their eyes were opened and they knew Him.” This event opened their eyes. Jesus broke bread many times with them, at the feeding of the 5,000 he broke bread in prayer. The last night they spent with Jesus he broke bread and gave the true meaning of the Passover. V.35 when they arrived with the disciples they told the story of his resurrection and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread. Whether this is a natural or supernatural explanation for their inability to recognize Him, one thing is for sure, it was not because He was a spirit or raised in a completely different body.

                Irenaeus fought against the Gnostics in his writings and debates, he wrote “Marcion cut up that according to (the Gospel of) Luke.”[ Ireaneus, III:11:7. This account for the numerous changes found in varying manuscripts of Luke and the large number of verses Marcion omitted. It is, for example, understandable why the sentence “And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet” (Luke 24:40) was be omitted by Marcion. For he did not believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus but only in a spiritual resurrection. So the Jehovah's Witnesses get their doctrine from this early teacher of heresy.

                The Jehovah's Witnesses make the same mistake that Jesus corrected the disciples on. In Luke 24:39 The Disciples are terrified thinking they saw a Ghost. Jesus calms them down and said, “I am not a spirit but I have flesh and bone (not blood, so here is the answer to flesh and blood not able to enter heaven). One thing that is clear is that it was not because he did not have a body. He had the same scars in His hands and feet proving His fulfillment of the prophecy that He would raise up His body from the grave (John 2:19-22). A spirit does not scar. He shows them the scars saying it is I, myself. He then eats with them to prove it. Once again He repeats what was said on the Emaus road Luke 24:44. Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” Vs.45-46 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day” Just as Paul states in 1 Cor.15:1-4 as the scripture says.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by livewire View Post
                  I was pondering through some literature and came across a comment that stated that JW's by denying Christ physical resurrection was likened to early Gnostics. AS you are aware Gnostics denied the resurrection of Christ .
                  So were does that fit into the WTS tenets?

                  The WTS teach that Christ did resurrect, but the methodology differs from Christendom in many ways. How so? Christ cried out to his father" receive my spirit" and in that instant Christ fleshly body was disposed and replaced with a glorified one. WTS reasoning is based on Jewish sacrificial rituals that all carcases have sin hence are disposed of . Furthermore the WTS teach that Jehovah disposed of Christ carcass because likened to Moses it would not be worshiped.

                  I reason this : What is a glorified body? Is it flesh OR is it Spirit or is it both? There is debate as to Christ new glorified form. Did God blind there eyes literally? OR were they blinded in not recognising the new Christ?
                  I reason that Christ would have to look different ,Why so? For a start... it could not be flesh and blood as that would not suite a heavenly abode, beside Christ blood was already shed. One thing for certain is this : Christ body would have to be a spirit form eventually after the 40 days so that he could ascend into heaven. So why the fuss?

                  There is an unfounded rumour that JW's teach the resurrected Christ transformed back into Michael the archangel. I can assure you that that is not the case . A WTS article unequivocally stated that in no shape of form was Christ an incarnation of Michael, but possessed his own unique personality.
                  Conclusion.
                  Providing all of Christ DNA, his complete person, marks and all resurrected Just because his flesh was disposed does not mean that he wasn't resurrected.
                  Note: Early creeds did not mention "Fleshly" resurrection as a mandate for believing Christians It was to be added later in light of the Arian controversy.

                  Blessings
                  So you are calling Jesus a liar in Luke 24:39! Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” How is he not telling the truth? Then how can the Bible be right, 1 Tim. 2:5,states that the mediator is a man (not an angel, spirit creature).

                  Comment


                  • The Gospel of the resurrection

                    1. Why would Jesus state that a sign of His authority would be the resurrection of His body (John 2:18-22) if, as Jehovah's Witnesses claim, He was raised "spiritually"?

                    2. If Jesus was raised as a spirit, then what happened to His body? (Provide Scripture reference.)

                    3. If Jesus is a spirit, then why did Paul write some 30 years following the resurrection that Christ is existing in a physical body? (Col 2:9 - Greek: somatikos = physical form.)

                    4. If Jesus was raised as a spirit, then why did He deceive His disciples into thinking He was resurrected in a body of flesh and bone? (Luke 24:36)

                    5. If only a spirit or ghost, not "flesh and bone" could transcend through locked doors and windows, then was a spirit when He walked on water? (John 6:19)

                    6. If Jesus was raised as a spirit and only materialized in different forms then why, on the road to Emmaus, were the eyes of the disciples "veiled" or "holden" to keep them from recognizing Him? (Luke 24:16; 31.)

                    7. What is the Gospel preached by millions of Jehovah's Witnesses in their door-to-door publishing work? The Gospel preached by born-again Christians is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Is this the same Gospel or a different Gospel than that which is preached by Jehovah's Witnesses?

                    8. What did the Apostle Paul state the Gospel by which we are saved to be? (1 Cor 15:1-4) What is the end result of preaching a different Gospel? (Gal 1:8-9)

                    Comment


                    • Acts 1:11 He will come in the same manner he left visibly to all with the physical eye. How do we know he left physically, because they watched Him arise into heaven. The same body, the same person, the same way He will return. But the Jehovah’s Witnesses says “We are not to look for Christ to be visible to human eyes when he comes again.” (WT 2/15/1955 p.102) Rev.1:7 “Behold he is coming with clouds (glory), and Every eye will see him even they who pierced him” Mt.24:27 “For as the lightning flashes from east to west so will the coming of the son of man be.” Everyone can see lightning no matter what religion they would belong to, even if they did not believe in God.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by thomas1961 View Post
                        The Gospel of the resurrection

                        1. Why would Jesus state that a sign of His authority would be the resurrection of His body (John 2:18-22) if, as Jehovah's Witnesses claim, He was raised "spiritually"?

                        2. If Jesus was raised as a spirit, then what happened to His body? (Provide Scripture reference.)

                        3. If Jesus is a spirit, then why did Paul write some 30 years following the resurrection that Christ is existing in a physical body? (Col 2:9 - Greek: somatikos = physical form.)

                        4. If Jesus was raised as a spirit, then why did He deceive His disciples into thinking He was resurrected in a body of flesh and bone? (Luke 24:36)

                        5. If only a spirit or ghost, not "flesh and bone" could transcend through locked doors and windows, then was a spirit when He walked on water? (John 6:19)

                        6. If Jesus was raised as a spirit and only materialized in different forms then why, on the road to Emmaus, were the eyes of the disciples "veiled" or "holden" to keep them from recognizing Him? (Luke 24:16; 31.)

                        7. What is the Gospel preached by millions of Jehovah's Witnesses in their door-to-door publishing work? The Gospel preached by born-again Christians is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Is this the same Gospel or a different Gospel than that which is preached by Jehovah's Witnesses?

                        8. What did the Apostle Paul state the Gospel by which we are saved to be? (1 Cor 15:1-4) What is the end result of preaching a different Gospel? (Gal 1:8-9)
                        I know it's an older thread but I didn't want it to go off the forum without a JW or WTS apologist attempting to answer your questions.



                        Holly
                        Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by livewire View Post
                          I was pondering through some literature and came across a comment that stated that JW's by denying Christ physical resurrection was likened to early Gnostics. AS you are aware Gnostics denied the resurrection of Christ .
                          So were does that fit into the WTS tenets?

                          The WTS teach that Christ did resurrect, but the methodology differs from Christendom in many ways. How so? Christ cried out to his father" receive my spirit" and in that instant Christ fleshly body was disposed and replaced with a glorified one. WTS reasoning is based on Jewish sacrificial rituals that all carcases have sin hence are disposed of . Furthermore the WTS teach that Jehovah disposed of Christ carcass because likened to Moses it would not be worshiped.

                          I reason this : What is a glorified body? Is it flesh OR is it Spirit or is it both? There is debate as to Christ new glorified form. Did God blind there eyes literally? OR were they blinded in not recognising the new Christ?
                          I reason that Christ would have to look different ,Why so? For a start... it could not be flesh and blood as that would not suite a heavenly abode, beside Christ blood was already shed. One thing for certain is this : Christ body would have to be a spirit form eventually after the 40 days so that he could ascend into heaven. So why the fuss?

                          There is an unfounded rumour that JW's teach the resurrected Christ transformed back into Michael the archangel. I can assure you that that is not the case . A WTS article unequivocally stated that in no shape of form was Christ an incarnation of Michael, but possessed his own unique personality.
                          Conclusion.
                          Providing all of Christ DNA, his complete person, marks and all resurrected Just because his flesh was disposed does not mean that he wasn't resurrected.
                          Note: Early creeds did not mention "Fleshly" resurrection as a mandate for believing Christians It was to be added later in light of the Arian controversy.

                          Blessings
                          And none of you have ever explained fully how Jesus the man could have got into a locked room if he was raised bodily?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Nathan p View Post
                            And none of you have ever explained fully how Jesus the man could have got into a locked room if he was raised bodily?
                            Same way he walked on water in his physical body, Nathan, and calmed a stormy sea, and healed physical diseases, and raised the dead, and ascended into heaven. Nothing is impossible for God, except to lie.



                            Holly
                            Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by HollyWood View Post

                              Same way he walked on water in his physical body, Nathan, and calmed a stormy sea, and healed physical diseases, and raised the dead, and ascended into heaven. Nothing is impossible for God, except to lie.



                              Holly
                              It says he was taken into heaven and not that he ascended into heaven. According to you in his first physical body why didn't he appear in locked rooms? And it has been proven Jesus is only an angel and you all keep coming back and act like it has not. Listen closely John only wrote what the angel told him one time correct? Meaning since he heard about the word of God from Jesus then the angel sent had to have been Jesus, or you are saying Jesus and the angel told John the same information and that John wrote it up 2 different times after hearing it from 2 different entities.
                              Last edited by Nathan p; 02-21-19, 04:49 PM. Reason: spelling.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Nathan p View Post
                                It says he was taken into heaven and not that he ascended into heaven.
                                Same thing, according to Jesus.

                                Originally posted by Nathan p View Post
                                According to you in his first physical body why didn't he appear in locked rooms? And it has been proven Jesus is only an angel and you all keep coming back and act like it has not. Listen closely John only wrote what the angel told him one time correct? Meaning since he heard about the word of God from Jesus then the angel sent had to have been Jesus, or you are saying Jesus and the angel told John the same information and that John wrote it up 2 different times after hearing it from 2 different entities.
                                What religion are you now, Nathan, that teaches any of this stuff you keep posting?



                                Holly
                                Last edited by HollyWood; 02-21-19, 06:00 PM.
                                Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

                                Comment

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