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White Salamanders, Mormonism and FARMS

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  • #91
    Originally posted by cynth View Post
    from lds.org, Hinckley discussed about 40 documents bought from Hofman:

    A lot of to do about a lot of nonsense... chuckle.


    Alleged Suppression of Documents


    I will comment first on the charge of suppression.

    One week after the bombings, in an effort to answer public questions, the Church made known that it had acquired “forty-some documents” from Hofmann “by purchase, donation, or trade.” (Gordon B. Hinckley, remarks at 23 Oct. 1985 press conference.) The Church operates under a divine mandate to acquire and preserve the documents and artifacts that show its history, and these acquisitions were part of that effort. In succeeding weeks, an exhaustive inventory of the Church’s huge collections revealed the extent of Hofmann’s transactions with the Church. These follow-up details were immediately disclosed to the authorities making this criminal investigation.

    In the midst of these efforts to inform its members and to aid in the pending investigation, the Church’s openness on its dealings with Hofmann was used against it. For example, the New York Times Magazine of 12 January 1986 states:

    “Hinckley said at a press conference that, starting in 1980, he had purchased about 40 documents from Hofmann. Only a few of them have been made public; others are in a church vault. Whether they cast any new light on the church’s past is not known.” (Pp. 43, 46.)

    What President Hinckley said was that he had purchased twodocuments, and Church History Department personnel had acquired the rest. Furthermore, the unknown documents were mostly innocuous, unknown not because they were hidden in a vault—they were not—but unknown because they were unimportant.

    During this same month of January 1986, the Church turned all of its Hofmann-acquired documents over to the prosecutors, at their request. As a result, the Church could not make its Hofmann documents public to answer these innuendos of suppression without seeming to try to influence or impede the criminal investigation.

    https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/10/r...ments?lang=eng
    A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Ralf View Post
      Well, chuckles, how come your silly little cult hasn't explained why its CULT APOLOGISTS were making a case for White Salamanders as messengers of you "god:" Maybe your "god" came from a planet where White Salamanders were revered as your "god's" messengers.
      Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
        As most know, Mark Hoffman, a Mormon who went bad and began to forge documents, many of which he sold to the Mormon church as authentic, historic letters and documents, came up with a "letter from Martin Harris" which mentioned the origins of Mormonism, and linked it to a white Salamander. Here is the text of the forged letter:
        Palmyra October 23d 1830 Dear Sir Your letter of yesterday is received & I hasten to answer as fully as I can--Joseph Smith Jr first come to my notice in the year 1824 in the summer of that year I contracted with his father to build a fence on my property in the corse of that work I approach Joseph & ask how it is in a half day you put up what requires your father & 2 brothers a full day working together he says I have not been with out assistance but can not say more only you better find out the next day I take the older Smith by the arm & he says Joseph can see any thing he wishes by looking at a stone Joseph often sees Spirits here with great kettles of coin money it was Spirits who brought up rock because Joseph made no attempt on their money I latter dream I converse with spirits which let me count their money when I awake I have in my hand a dollar coin which I take for a sign Joseph describes what I seen in every particular says he the spirits are grieved so I through back the dollar in the fall of the year 1827 I hear Joseph found a gold bible I take Joseph aside & he says it is true I found it 4 years ago with my stone but only just got it because of the enchantment the old spirit come to me 3 times in the same dream & says dig up the gold but when I take it up the next morning the spirit transfigured himself from a white salamander in the bottom of the hole & struck me 3 times & held the treasure & would not let me have it because I lay it down to cover over the hole when the spirit says do not lay it down Joseph says when can I have it the spirit says one year from to day if you obay me look to the stone after a few days he looks the spirit says bring your brother Alvin Joseph says he is dead shall I bring what remains but the spirit is gone Joseph goes to get the gold bible but the spirit says you did not bring your brother you can not have it look to the stone Joseph looks but can not see who to bring the spirit says I tricked you again look to the stone Joseph looks & sees his wife on the 22d day of Sept 1827 they get the gold bible--I give Joseph $50 to move him down to Pa Joseph says when you visit me I will give you a sign he gives me some hiroglyphics I take then to Utica Albany & New York in the last place Dr Mitchel gives me an introduction to Professor Anthon says he they are short hand Egyption the same what was used in ancient times bring me the old book & I will translate says I it is made of precious gold & is sealed from view says he I can not read a sealed book--Joseph found some giant silver specticles with the plates he puts them in an old hat & in the darkness reads the words & in this way it is all translated & written down--about the middle of June 1829 Joseph takes me together with Oliver Cowdery & David Whitmer to have a view of the plates our names are appended to the book of Mormon which I had printed with my own money--space and time both prevent me from writing more at present if there is any thing further you wish to inquire I shall attend to it Yours Respectfully Martin Harris
        Note the reference to a spirit which transfigured itself into a "white salamander" guarding the "plates." This was supposed to be one of the earliest accounts of how Joseph Smith acquired the golden plates from which the Book of Mormon was "translated." This, of course, embarrassed the Mormon cult since Joseph's off 's official account of how he dug up the plates motioned nothing about salamanders - but, hey, that doesn't stop Mormon "apologists." Soon the cult's defenders were digging up whatever they could about salamanders in order to rationalize the account found in the forged Martin Harris letter.

        This article deals with the pathetic attempt to legitimize "white salamanders" as holy messengers used to bring forth the Book of Mormon plates:

        http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/inde...y_salamanders/

        Of course, after Hoffman admitted the whole thing was a fraud, the salamanders bid the apologetic world "adieu."

        And Mormons wonder why Christians pretty much disregard anything coming out of FARMS (since absorbed into the Maxwell Institute) or FAIR?
        If the Mormon cult is led by some kind of "prophet" with divine inspiration, why did that "inspiration" fail, and why did the cult buy phony documents?
        Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

        Comment


        • #94
          "...unknown not because they were hidden in a vaultóthey were notóbut unknown because they were unimportant.

          During this same month of January 1986, the Church
          turned all of its Hofmann-acquired documents over to the prosecutors, at their request. As a result, the Church could not make its Hofmann documents public to answer these innuendos of suppression without seeming to try to influence or impede the criminal investigation."

          Thanks, Ralf. It appears that the vault does not contain this "treasure trove of documents."
          "PWCSLWRTIMSL"="PeopleWhoCSLewisWasReferringToInMy SignatureLine"
          ..whenever a person's religious conversation dwells..even frequently on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition-C.S. Lewis

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post
            "...unknown not because they were hidden in a vault—they were not—but unknown because they were unimportant.

            During this same month of January 1986, the Church
            turned all of its Hofmann-acquired documents over to the prosecutors, at their request. As a result, the Church could not make its Hofmann documents public to answer these innuendos of suppression without seeming to try to influence or impede the criminal investigation."

            Thanks, Ralf. It appears that the vault does not contain this "treasure trove of documents."
            The deniers make it up as they go ... or they get sucked into the storms of their own making... either way they are deniers who fear truth but will believe any of the many ungodly sources available to them ... at least two christian researches got it right.... "Evangelicals are losing the battle and don't even know it" ...yikes!
            A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

              If the Mormon cult is led by some kind of "prophet" with divine inspiration, why did that "inspiration" fail, and why did the cult buy phony documents?
              The Church operates under a divine mandate to acquire and preserve the documents and artifacts that show its history, and these acquisitions were part of that effort. In succeeding weeks, an exhaustive inventory of the Churchís huge collections revealed the extent of Hofmannís transactions with the Church. These follow-up details were immediately disclosed to the authorities making this criminal investigation.

              https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/10/r...ments?lang=eng
              A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
                As most know, Mark Hoffman, a Mormon who went bad and began to forge documents, many of which he sold to the Mormon church as authentic, historic letters and documents, came up with a "letter from Martin Harris" which mentioned the origins of Mormonism, and linked it to a white Salamander. Here is the text of the forged letter:
                Palmyra October 23d 1830 Dear Sir Your letter of yesterday is received & I hasten to answer as fully as I can--Joseph Smith Jr first come to my notice in the year 1824 in the summer of that year I contracted with his father to build a fence on my property in the corse of that work I approach Joseph & ask how it is in a half day you put up what requires your father & 2 brothers a full day working together he says I have not been with out assistance but can not say more only you better find out the next day I take the older Smith by the arm & he says Joseph can see any thing he wishes by looking at a stone Joseph often sees Spirits here with great kettles of coin money it was Spirits who brought up rock because Joseph made no attempt on their money I latter dream I converse with spirits which let me count their money when I awake I have in my hand a dollar coin which I take for a sign Joseph describes what I seen in every particular says he the spirits are grieved so I through back the dollar in the fall of the year 1827 I hear Joseph found a gold bible I take Joseph aside & he says it is true I found it 4 years ago with my stone but only just got it because of the enchantment the old spirit come to me 3 times in the same dream & says dig up the gold but when I take it up the next morning the spirit transfigured himself from a white salamander in the bottom of the hole & struck me 3 times & held the treasure & would not let me have it because I lay it down to cover over the hole when the spirit says do not lay it down Joseph says when can I have it the spirit says one year from to day if you obay me look to the stone after a few days he looks the spirit says bring your brother Alvin Joseph says he is dead shall I bring what remains but the spirit is gone Joseph goes to get the gold bible but the spirit says you did not bring your brother you can not have it look to the stone Joseph looks but can not see who to bring the spirit says I tricked you again look to the stone Joseph looks & sees his wife on the 22d day of Sept 1827 they get the gold bible--I give Joseph $50 to move him down to Pa Joseph says when you visit me I will give you a sign he gives me some hiroglyphics I take then to Utica Albany & New York in the last place Dr Mitchel gives me an introduction to Professor Anthon says he they are short hand Egyption the same what was used in ancient times bring me the old book & I will translate says I it is made of precious gold & is sealed from view says he I can not read a sealed book--Joseph found some giant silver specticles with the plates he puts them in an old hat & in the darkness reads the words & in this way it is all translated & written down--about the middle of June 1829 Joseph takes me together with Oliver Cowdery & David Whitmer to have a view of the plates our names are appended to the book of Mormon which I had printed with my own money--space and time both prevent me from writing more at present if there is any thing further you wish to inquire I shall attend to it Yours Respectfully Martin Harris
                Note the reference to a spirit which transfigured itself into a "white salamander" guarding the "plates." This was supposed to be one of the earliest accounts of how Joseph Smith acquired the golden plates from which the Book of Mormon was "translated." This, of course, embarrassed the Mormon cult since Joseph's off 's official account of how he dug up the plates motioned nothing about salamanders - but, hey, that doesn't stop Mormon "apologists." Soon the cult's defenders were digging up whatever they could about salamanders in order to rationalize the account found in the forged Martin Harris letter.

                This article deals with the pathetic attempt to legitimize "white salamanders" as holy messengers used to bring forth the Book of Mormon plates:

                http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/inde...y_salamanders/

                Of course, after Hoffman admitted the whole thing was a fraud, the salamanders bid the apologetic world "adieu."

                And Mormons wonder why Christians pretty much disregard anything coming out of FARMS (since absorbed into the Maxwell Institute) or FAIR?
                If Hoffman had forged a letter saying that purple grasshoppers guarded the "gold plates" of Joe Smith, the Mormon defenders would be writing books about how purple grasshoppers are well known representatives of planet Kolob.
                Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                  If Hoffman had forged a letter saying that purple grasshoppers guarded the "gold plates" of Joe Smith, the Mormon defenders would be writing books about how purple grasshoppers are well known representatives of planet Kolob.
                  Deniers have a right to assume... like deniers assume so many things already...
                  A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post
                    "...unknown not because they were hidden in a vault—they were not—but unknown because they were unimportant.

                    During this same month of January 1986, the Church
                    turned all of its Hofmann-acquired documents over to the prosecutors, at their request. As a result, the Church could not make its Hofmann documents public to answer these innuendos of suppression without seeming to try to influence or impede the criminal investigation."

                    Thanks, Ralf. It appears that the vault does not contain this "treasure trove of documents."
                    I totally agree the forgeries would be worthless, "treasure" is ironic in this case! And you are correct, I can't prove they were in a vault. What your quotes DO prove is that the statement that the mormons bought quite a few of the Hofmann forgeries is correct.

                    Why would they purchase so many worthless documents? It's an interesting question. As a forger, Hofmann was quite persuasive, it's certainly possible he bamboozled more than one church member and/or leader with his flim-flam. Then, after the fact, how to explain how the church was mesmerized into such a con? Hofmann had quite a run.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ralf View Post

                      Deniers have a right to assume... like deniers assume so many things already...
                      Deniers? Of what? Forgeries? Your cult is not led by a prophet, or apostles. But by businessmen who didn't know that Hoffman was swindling them. Your cult is not more inspired than Christian Science.
                      Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by cynth View Post

                        I totally agree the forgeries would be worthless, "treasure" is ironic in this case! And you are correct, I can't prove they were in a vault. What your quotes DO prove is that the statement that the mormons bought quite a few of the Hofmann forgeries is correct.

                        Why would they purchase so many worthless documents? It's an interesting question. As a forger, Hofmann was quite persuasive, it's certainly possible he bamboozled more than one church member and/or leader with his flim-flam. Then, after the fact, how to explain how the church was mesmerized into such a con? Hofmann had quite a run.

                        I like this piece of writing and somewhat agree with it....

                        What does it mean?

                        Church critics suggest that the Hofmann forgeries show that the church is too secretive about its history; that church leaders want to suppress or whitewash negative aspects of church history; that church members do not know about controversial parts of history. Critics also suggest that the incident shows lack of inspiration in church leadership — if they are prophets, why didn’t they realize Hofmann was a forger?

                        On the question of document suppression, I’m not sure that the incident is particularly damning. The church bought documents of questionable provenance, and generally made them available, even before the forgery was known. The church could have been more forthright about them — I’m a fan of Arrington’s approach myself — but I can understand the desire not to emphasize controversial documents. Elder Oaks wrote a
                        lengthy discussion of the Hofmann incident, including a defense of the church’s policies, in the Ensign in 1987[/COLOR].

                        Are there more hidden documents, smoking guns about early church history? Let’s see — the church is currently engaged in a publishing 30-odd volumes of original documents on Joseph Smith. Yes, there are some items that may not be published (C50 minutes, BLL, KEP: Go [/COLOR]here for detail[/COLOR]. Yes, there have been some serious past problems, and periods of very bad historical practices. Right now, I don’t worry much. I don’t have time to read all of the new primary documents that come out anymore. Take a look at Signature, Illinois, Arthur H Clark lately.

                        On the question of duped church leaders — well, yes. Church leaders were duped. That’s embarrassing. Is it anything more? [/COLOR]It does mean that if you think that Thomas S. Monson has a bat-phone directly to God, then you probably need to rethink your testimony. (And I’ll grant that quite a few CTR-8s probably have that understanding. And probably some adult members, too, which is unfortunate.) For those of us who don’t subscribe to the bat-phone model of prophetic guidance, well, the incident doesn’t mean a whole lot.

                        Come on, people, ask us something harder. The Kinderhook Plates, for instance.

                        Times and Seasons...
                        The Salamander Letter in a nutshell

                        by Kaimi Wenger
                        A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by cynth View Post
                          I totally agree the forgeries would be worthless,
                          edit I know that some forgeries are far from worthless. I collect old documents, among other old things, and the Hofmann forgeries--which were so good that they fooled even the expert forgery-catcher who discovered that the Hitler diaries were forgeries--could be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to collectors.

                          FYI, Hofmann is "Widely regarded as one of the most accomplished forgers in history." (wiki)


                          "treasure" is ironic in this case!
                          edit

                          And you are correct, I can't prove they were in a vault.
                          edit/personal

                          What your quotes DO prove is that the statement that the mormons bought quite a few of the Hofmann forgeries is correct.
                          I thought it said that some were bought, and some were traded for.

                          Why would they purchase so many worthless documents? It's an interesting question.
                          Is it? The obvious, common-sense answer is: Because they considered the documents to have value of some sort.

                          As a forger, Hofmann was quite persuasive
                          Yeah, at least one of his forgeries was taken to one of the foremost document authenticators in the world, who declared it authentic, and therefore valuable. Oh, and that guy was NOT LDS.

                          Hofmann had quite a run.
                          Like most or all extremist anti-LDS, Hofmann's run was only temporary. He became desperate when his lies started to unravel, so he felt that killing LDS people was the only solution.
                          Last edited by CARM Admin; 01-13-17, 05:26 PM. Reason: alert/edit personal/infraction
                          "PWCSLWRTIMSL"="PeopleWhoCSLewisWasReferringToInMy SignatureLine"
                          ..whenever a person's religious conversation dwells..even frequently on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition-C.S. Lewis

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
                            As most know, Mark Hoffman, a Mormon who went bad and began to forge documents, many of which he sold to the Mormon church as authentic, historic letters and documents, came up with a "letter from Martin Harris" which mentioned the origins of Mormonism, and linked it to a white Salamander. Here is the text of the forged letter:
                            Palmyra October 23d 1830 Dear Sir Your letter of yesterday is received & I hasten to answer as fully as I can--Joseph Smith Jr first come to my notice in the year 1824 in the summer of that year I contracted with his father to build a fence on my property in the corse of that work I approach Joseph & ask how it is in a half day you put up what requires your father & 2 brothers a full day working together he says I have not been with out assistance but can not say more only you better find out the next day I take the older Smith by the arm & he says Joseph can see any thing he wishes by looking at a stone Joseph often sees Spirits here with great kettles of coin money it was Spirits who brought up rock because Joseph made no attempt on their money I latter dream I converse with spirits which let me count their money when I awake I have in my hand a dollar coin which I take for a sign Joseph describes what I seen in every particular says he the spirits are grieved so I through back the dollar in the fall of the year 1827 I hear Joseph found a gold bible I take Joseph aside & he says it is true I found it 4 years ago with my stone but only just got it because of the enchantment the old spirit come to me 3 times in the same dream & says dig up the gold but when I take it up the next morning the spirit transfigured himself from a white salamander in the bottom of the hole & struck me 3 times & held the treasure & would not let me have it because I lay it down to cover over the hole when the spirit says do not lay it down Joseph says when can I have it the spirit says one year from to day if you obay me look to the stone after a few days he looks the spirit says bring your brother Alvin Joseph says he is dead shall I bring what remains but the spirit is gone Joseph goes to get the gold bible but the spirit says you did not bring your brother you can not have it look to the stone Joseph looks but can not see who to bring the spirit says I tricked you again look to the stone Joseph looks & sees his wife on the 22d day of Sept 1827 they get the gold bible--I give Joseph $50 to move him down to Pa Joseph says when you visit me I will give you a sign he gives me some hiroglyphics I take then to Utica Albany & New York in the last place Dr Mitchel gives me an introduction to Professor Anthon says he they are short hand Egyption the same what was used in ancient times bring me the old book & I will translate says I it is made of precious gold & is sealed from view says he I can not read a sealed book--Joseph found some giant silver specticles with the plates he puts them in an old hat & in the darkness reads the words & in this way it is all translated & written down--about the middle of June 1829 Joseph takes me together with Oliver Cowdery & David Whitmer to have a view of the plates our names are appended to the book of Mormon which I had printed with my own money--space and time both prevent me from writing more at present if there is any thing further you wish to inquire I shall attend to it Yours Respectfully Martin Harris
                            Note the reference to a spirit which transfigured itself into a "white salamander" guarding the "plates." This was supposed to be one of the earliest accounts of how Joseph Smith acquired the golden plates from which the Book of Mormon was "translated." This, of course, embarrassed the Mormon cult since Joseph's off 's official account of how he dug up the plates motioned nothing about salamanders - but, hey, that doesn't stop Mormon "apologists." Soon the cult's defenders were digging up whatever they could about salamanders in order to rationalize the account found in the forged Martin Harris letter.

                            This article deals with the pathetic attempt to legitimize "white salamanders" as holy messengers used to bring forth the Book of Mormon plates:

                            http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/inde...y_salamanders/

                            Of course, after Hoffman admitted the whole thing was a fraud, the salamanders bid the apologetic world "adieu."

                            And Mormons wonder why Christians pretty much disregard anything coming out of FARMS (since absorbed into the Maxwell Institute) or FAIR?
                            This is a very good video from Ancient Paths about how Mark Hoffman DECEIVED the "inspired" Mormon cult.

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zALYIaVNAM
                            Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                              Deniers? Of what? Forgeries? Your cult is not led by a prophet, or apostles. But by businessmen who didn't know that Hoffman was swindling them. Your cult is not more inspired than Christian Science.
                              So give us a follow up on all this supposedly bad news for the church and the following effect it had on our membership... after all you would think they would be locking the doors as we speak with all this information out there.... going to another baptism today... chuckle.
                              A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

                              Comment


                              • I'm sure the TBMs here would have stood right next to Hinckley and said, "yeah, they look legit to me:"


                                https://www.google.com/search?q=hinckley+picture+looking+at+hofmann+forge ries&tbm=isch&imgil=3adHP_ebjV3hXM%253A%253BnF4Us0 RfkDZdhM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.sltrib.c om%25252Fhome%25252F3062356-155%25252Fafter-hofma#imgrc=YEilQACxjJBIKM%3A

                                http://www.truthandgrace.com/1987LATimes0329.htm
                                Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                                Comment

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