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Christianity never suffered any COMPLETE apostasy.

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  • #61
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post What "Christian Church"--as a denomination--are you claiming existed at the time of the Reformation?

    If there were Christian church(es) at the time of the Restoration, and they never denied any essential doctrines--then why the need for the Reformation?

    Why were numerous denominations formed--with a different theology?
    I'm wondering why no one will answer to this post?

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by NRA-Jeff

      You mean Ed Decker? Now that you mention it, extremist an tie-Mormons DO seem to always agree with him, and to never disagree with him, no matter how fantastic his claims are...
      ROFLMCLBO

      Ed Decker? I've heard him mentioned in these threads severa times...but I really don't know anything about him.

      No...I was thinking of that all-around good egg...Humpty Dumpty.

      “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean —neither more nor less.”
      “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
      “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.”
      Last edited by The Barrd; 02-13-18, 12:21 PM.
      God Who was made flesh for me and nailed upon a lonely tree
      What gift can I bring that would suffice to repay such great sacrifice?
      All that I am I lay at Your throne. Make me, Lord, Your very Own.

      Comment


      • #63

        ROFLMCLBO

        Ed Decker? I've heard him mentioned in these threads several times...but I really don't know anything about him.

        No...I was thinking of that all-around good egg...Humpty Dumpty.

        “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean —neither more nor less.”
        “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
        “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master —that's all.”
        Last edited by The Barrd; 02-13-18, 12:22 PM.
        God Who was made flesh for me and nailed upon a lonely tree
        What gift can I bring that would suffice to repay such great sacrifice?
        All that I am I lay at Your throne. Make me, Lord, Your very Own.

        Comment


        • #64
          And then there is this poem:

          Joey the Liar sat on a wall, it's crumbling blocks forecasting a great and huge fall.
          Joey the Liar pretended "a god or angel gives me all my words,"
          And his followers blessed him, even though he was so very absurd!
          Joey the Liar sat on a wall, lying, deceiving, and full of such gall.

          Joey the groom sat on a wall, his wives all caught in Smith's devilish trawl
          "All else are apostates," the deceiver shouted with joy
          "Listen to me only, I'm in touch with some god", was his ploy,
          Little did his followers know, they were destined, to share in his fall.

          In the end the wall shattered, for lies always eventually will fall
          And Joey fell hardest, for he was the greatest deceiver of all.
          Remember this tale friends, and don't God's Words disobey,
          For one day Joe's followers, will cry in horror on doomsday!

          Some of this is in chiasmus, therefore it must be recognized as "inspred" by Mormons!


          Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
            Some of this is in chiasmus, therefore it must be recognized as "inspred" by Mormons.
            It's definitely "inspred", Catherine.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by The Barrd View Post

              ROFLMCLBO

              Ed Decker? I've heard him mentioned in these threads severa times...but I really don't know anything about him.
              Shouldn't you know something about your own religion before presuming to attack someone else's?

              Common sense would say "yes."

              But extremist an-ti-Mormonism is a very strange, sad religion: Like Pharisaism, it focuses on other people's (perceived) problems, while totally ignoring (and even denying the existence of) problems in its own sordid history.

              Maybe that's why C.S. Lewis was so critical of people who make their religious conversations consist mainly of attacking other people's beliefs.

              Comment


              • #67
                Since the Mormons love to quote the Church Fathers from the Second and Third centuries, I'd say they really don't believe in a "complete" apostasy.
                Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                  It's definitely "inspred", Catherine.
                  Thank you, dberrie. I didn't mean inbred either. But "inspired." You'd agree, right, that chiasmus is the mark of inspiration, right?

                  Perhaps "inspred" is the pure Adamic language for inspired - since y ou seem to agree that it's inspred, right?
                  Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
                    Since the Mormons love to quote the Church Fathers from the Second and Third centuries, I'd say they really don't believe in a "complete" apostasy.
                    You are a bit confused. If I'm discussing Marxism I quote Marx. I don't believe in his ideas but he is the foremost authority on what constitutes Marxism.

                    When discussing the early church it makes good sense to refer to the Early Church Fathers regardless of whether one thinks they are apostate or not.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
                      Since the Mormons love to quote the Church Fathers from the Second and Third centuries, I'd say they really don't believe in a "complete" apostasy.
                      I would agree.

                      There seemed to be a unison in the belief of theosis:


                      SAINT JUSTIN MARTYR (100 TO 165 CE)

                      And when I saw that they were perturbed because I said that we are the sons of God, I anticipated their questioning, and said, Listen, sirs, how the Holy Ghost speaks of this people, saying that they are all sons of the Highest; and how this very Christ will be present in their assembly, rendering judgment to all men. ... the Holy Ghost reproaches men because they were made like God, free from suffering and death, provided that they kept His commandments, and were deemed deserving of the name of His sons, ... all men are deemed worthy of becoming 'gods,' and of having power to become sons of the Highest; and shall be each by himself judged and condemned like Adam and Eve." (Justin Martyr. "Dialogue with Trypho 124." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 1. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 261-262. Print.)

                      SAINT IRENAEUS OF LYONS (130 TO 202 CE)

                      "Now it was necessary that man should in the first instance be created; and having been created, should receive growth; and having received growth, should be strengthened; and having been strengthened, should abound; and having abounded, should recover [from the disease of sin]; and having recovered, should be glorified; and being glorified, should see the Lord. For God is He who is yet to be seen, and the beholding of God is productive of immortality, but immortality renders one nigh unto God. ... because we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods; ..."(Irenaeus. "Against Heresies 4: 38: 3-4." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 1. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 522. Print.)

                      "... the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself." (Irenaeus. "Against Heresies 5: Preface." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 1. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 526. Print.)

                      SAINT CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (150 TO 215 CE)

                      "Yea, I say, the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God." (Clement of Alexandria. "Exhortation to the Heathen 1." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 2. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 174. Print.)

                      "For if one knows himself, he will know God; and knowing God, he will be made like God, not by wearing gold or long robes, but by well-doing, and by requiring as few things as possible. Now, God alone is in need of nothing, and rejoices most when He sees us bright with the ornament of intelligence; ... [that man] has the form which is of the Word; he is made like to God; he is beautiful; he does not ornament himself: his is beauty, the true beauty, for it is God; and that man becomes God, since God so wills. Heraclitus, then, rightly said, 'Men are gods, and gods are men.' For the Word Himself is the manifest mystery: God in man, and man God."(Clement of Alexandria. "Instructor 3: 1." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 2. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 271. Print.)

                      "On this wise it is possible for the Gnostic already to have become God. 'I said, Ye are gods, and sons of the highest.' And Empedocles says that the souls of the wise become gods, writing as follows: 'At last prophets, minstrels, and physicians, And the foremost among mortal men, approach; Whence spring gods supreme in honours.'" (Clement of Alexandria. "Stromata 4: 24." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 2. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 437. Print.)

                      "It leads us to the endless and perfect end, teaching us beforehand the future life that we shall lead, according to God, and with gods; after we are freed from all punishment and penalty which we undergo, in consequence of our sins, for salutary discipline. After which redemption and reward and the honours are assigned to those who have become perfect; ... Then become pure in heart, and near to the Lord, there awaits them restoration to everlasting contemplation; and they are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Saviour."(Clement of Alexandria. "Stromata 7: 10." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 2. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 539. Print.)

                      TERTULLIAN OF CARTHAGE (160 TO 220 CE)

                      "Well, then, you say, we ourselves at that rate posses nothing of God. But indeed we do, and shall continue to do - only it is from Him that we receive it, and not from ourselves. For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be ...'" (Tertullian. "Against Hermogenes 5." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 3. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 479.


                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post
                        Shouldn't you know something about your own religion before presuming to attack someone else's?

                        Common sense would say "yes."

                        But extremist an-ti-Mormonism is a very strange, sad religion: Like Pharisaism, it focuses on other people's (perceived) problems, while totally ignoring (and even denying the existence of) problems in its own sordid history.

                        Maybe that's why C.S. Lewis was so critical of people who make their religious conversations consist mainly of attacking other people's beliefs.
                        Reaction formation, Jeff? Are you actually drawn to Mr. Decker's testimony, so you have to produce something antithetical to it?
                        Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                          You are a bit confused. If I'm discussing Marxism I quote Marx. I don't believe in his ideas but he is the foremost authority on what constitutes Marxism.

                          When discussing the early church it makes good sense to refer to the Early Church Fathers regardless of whether one thinks they are apostate or not.
                          Let's rethink what you just said. You have a Mormon here using "apostates" to validate a Mormon teaching. Therefore, we would have to conclude that that teaching is, itself, a product of apostasy. This has nothing to do with quoting Marx to affirm Marxism - if you want to know what Early Christians believed go to the source: and what would that be LURKER?
                          Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                            Let's rethink what you just said. You have a Mormon here using "apostates" to validate a Mormon teaching. Therefore, we would have to conclude that that teaching is, itself, a product of apostasy. This has nothing to do with quoting Marx to affirm Marxism - if you want to know what Early Christians believed go to the source: and what would that be LURKER?
                            I know you’re trying but you made an error in logic.

                            That a man is apostate does not mean that every teaching and every principle he believes in is therefor apostasy.

                            If I want to know what the original gospel teaches the source would be Christ. If I want to know what the early church taught the best source would be the ECFs. If I want to know what the Christians of the Middle Ages believed the best source would be the Catholic church.

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