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Embryonic gods of the Mormons - or Mormons seduced by Satan?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

    No disrespect intended but I don’t share personal details in this forum. EDITED
    It is against the rules to share personal information on here about another poster, even if it is from another website, like Facebook. Please remember that. Also, do not make unfounded accusations against another poster, even if unnamed. That is also against the rules. Thank you.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

      You keep telling us that the ECFs didn't mean theosis the way the Mormons do. But we have your word and then we have the words of the ECFs who say just the opposite. When it comes to what the ECFs actually believed we take their word for it and ignore yours.

      As far as our belief that angels and men are the same and that both are offspring of God, that's hardly a secret. I doubt that anybody gets all the way through the teachings with the missionaries without having that explained to them.
      Does the Eastern doctrine of THEOSIS state that YOU OR ANYBODY ELSE shall have the ESSENCE of God? Answer me please.
      Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

      Comment


      • #48
        For non-Mormons, this site explains that the Mormon exaltation doctrine, or that Mormons will be by nature what God is by nature, is a terrible heresy:

        https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/...ewart_1295.cfm
        Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Mod10 View Post
          It is against the rules to share personal information on here about another poster, even if it is from another website, like Facebook. Please remember that. Also, do not make unfounded accusations against another poster, even if unnamed. That is also against the rules. Thank you.
          I didn't share personal details of another poster. I've not been accused of sharing personal details. The only accusation made against me was that I didn't sufficiently condemn the poster who did. It was a silly accusation since I had not begun posting on the forum at the time.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
            Does the Eastern doctrine of THEOSIS state that YOU OR ANYBODY ELSE shall have the ESSENCE of God? Answer me please.
            What is the essence you are talking about? It's not so important that I know and understand that essence. It's not even important that you have no idea what it is either. What's important is that the Eastern Orthodox have no idea what you're talking about since your question pertains to their doctrine and understanding.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

              I didn't share personal details of another poster. I've not been accused of sharing personal details. The only accusation made against me was that I didn't sufficiently condemn the poster who did. It was a silly accusation since I had not begun posting on the forum at the time.
              Apparently you did.

              https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...87#post5084387
              ~ There is life after mormonism, and it's good! Just stay close to Christ.
              ~ You can't follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.
              ~ "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
                Theosis was taught in the Eastern Church. ..
                ...and is STILL taught by them.....but is now REJECTED by modern Evans.

                I wonder which side is wrong in this extremely important theological debate?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Magdalena View Post
                  You might want to read the post you linked to. It doesn’t contradict anything I said.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                    You might want to read the post you linked to. It doesn’t contradict anything I said.
                    You claimed that you didnt share personal information about a poster. Then you went on to do that very thing in your next sentence.
                    ~ There is life after mormonism, and it's good! Just stay close to Christ.
                    ~ You can't follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.
                    ~ "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post
                      Extremist an ti-Mormonism beats the devil at his own game of "anything goes" because the end justifies the means. It is 21st-century Machiavellianism combined with Puritan witch-hunter hysteria nonsense.

                      "Let's just say" that extremist an ti-Mormons who don't repent will be part of the following scenario:

                      Many will say to me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not attacked and accused LDS people in thy name? and in thy name have convinced ourselves that we have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works on the Internet?"

                      And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
                      Re-writing Scripture to suit your own agenda?
                      You do know that you will have to give an accouny of every idle word, yes?

                      God Who was made flesh for me and nailed upon a lonely tree
                      What gift can I bring that would suffice to repay such great sacrifice?
                      All that I am I lay at Your throne. Make me, Lord, Your very Own.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post
                        Extremist an ti-Mormonism beats the devil at his own game of "anything goes" because the end justifies the means. It is 21st-century Machiavellianism combined with Puritan witch-hunter hysteria nonsense.

                        "Let's just say" that extremist an ti-Mormons who don't repent will be part of the following scenario:

                        Many will say to me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not attacked and accused LDS people in thy name? and in thy name have convinced ourselves that we have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works on the Internet?"

                        And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
                        Re-writing God's Word? In order to accuse a Christian...
                        tsk tsk tsk....

                        "Let's just say" that might not be such a good idea.
                        God Who was made flesh for me and nailed upon a lonely tree
                        What gift can I bring that would suffice to repay such great sacrifice?
                        All that I am I lay at Your throne. Make me, Lord, Your very Own.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
                          Theosis was taught in the Eastern Church. The Western Church has never accepted their interpretaton, although it does teach glorification. However, for the umpteenth time, the Mormon version of "theosis" is an outright lie and fabrication, has nothing to do with the Eastern view, and you've been told that a milion times. So, it is hypocritical, dberrie, for you to spam this board with sayings by the ECFs that have nothing to do with the garbage Mormons call "exaltation."

                          If what the Early Church Fathers testified to above is true--then the theology taught here is false--it does nothing to LDS theology but confirm a principle those here deny, but is embraced by the LDS church:



                          SAINT JUSTIN MARTYR (100 TO 165 CE)

                          And when I saw that they were perturbed because I said that we are the sons of God, I anticipated their questioning, and said, Listen, sirs, how the Holy Ghost speaks of this people, saying that they are all sons of the Highest; and how this very Christ will be present in their assembly, rendering judgment to all men. ... the Holy Ghost reproaches men because they were made like God, free from suffering and death, provided that they kept His commandments, and were deemed deserving of the name of His sons, ... all men are deemed worthy of becoming 'gods,' and of having power to become sons of the Highest; and shall be each by himself judged and condemned like Adam and Eve." (Justin Martyr. "Dialogue with Trypho 124." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 1. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 261-262. Print.)

                          SAINT IRENAEUS OF LYONS (130 TO 202 CE)

                          "Now it was necessary that man should in the first instance be created; and having been created, should receive growth; and having received growth, should be strengthened; and having been strengthened, should abound; and having abounded, should recover [from the disease of sin]; and having recovered, should be glorified; and being glorified, should see the Lord. For God is He who is yet to be seen, and the beholding of God is productive of immortality, but immortality renders one nigh unto God. ... because we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods; ..."(Irenaeus. "Against Heresies 4: 38: 3-4." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 1. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 522. Print.)

                          "... the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself." (Irenaeus. "Against Heresies 5: Preface." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 1. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 526. Print.)


                          SAINT CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (150 TO 215 CE)

                          "Yea, I say, the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God." (Clement of Alexandria. "Exhortation to the Heathen 1." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 2. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 174. Print.)

                          "For if one knows himself, he will know God; and knowing God, he will be made like God, not by wearing gold or long robes, but by well-doing, and by requiring as few things as possible. Now, God alone is in need of nothing, and rejoices most when He sees us bright with the ornament of intelligence; ... [that man] has the form which is of the Word; he is made like to God; he is beautiful; he does not ornament himself: his is beauty, the true beauty, for it is God; and that man becomes God, since God so wills. Heraclitus, then, rightly said, 'Men are gods, and gods are men.' For the Word Himself is the manifest mystery: God in man, and man God."(Clement of Alexandria. "Instructor 3: 1." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 2. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 271. Print.)

                          "On this wise it is possible for the Gnostic already to have become God. 'I said, Ye are gods, and sons of the highest.' And Empedocles says that the souls of the wise become gods, writing as follows: 'At last prophets, minstrels, and physicians, And the foremost among mortal men, approach; Whence spring gods supreme in honours.'" (Clement of Alexandria. "Stromata 4: 24." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 2. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 437. Print.)

                          "It leads us to the endless and perfect end, teaching us beforehand the future life that we shall lead, according to God, and with gods; after we are freed from all punishment and penalty which we undergo, in consequence of our sins, for salutary discipline. After which redemption and reward and the honours are assigned to those who have become perfect; ... Then become pure in heart, and near to the Lord, there awaits them restoration to everlasting contemplation; and they are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Saviour."(Clement of Alexandria. "Stromata 7: 10." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 2. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 539. Print.)

                          TERTULLIAN OF CARTHAGE (160 TO 220 CE)

                          "Well, then, you say, we ourselves at that rate posses nothing of God. But indeed we do, and shall continue to do - only it is from Him that we receive it, and not from ourselves. For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be ...'" (Tertullian. "Against Hermogenes 5." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 3. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 479.


                          So, Catherine--when did the apostasy occur?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Magdalena View Post

                            You claimed that you didnt share personal information about a poster. Then you went on to do that very thing in your next sentence.
                            I went back and double checked. Nothing in there, no personal information about anyone.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post


                              If what the Early Church Fathers testified to above is true--then the theology taught here is false--it does nothing to LDS theology but confirm a principle those here deny, but is embraced by the LDS church:



                              SAINT JUSTIN MARTYR (100 TO 165 CE)

                              And when I saw that they were perturbed because I said that we are the sons of God, I anticipated their questioning, and said, Listen, sirs, how the Holy Ghost speaks of this people, saying that they are all sons of the Highest; and how this very Christ will be present in their assembly, rendering judgment to all men. ... the Holy Ghost reproaches men because they were made like God, free from suffering and death, provided that they kept His commandments, and were deemed deserving of the name of His sons, ... all men are deemed worthy of becoming 'gods,' and of having power to become sons of the Highest; and shall be each by himself judged and condemned like Adam and Eve." (Justin Martyr. "Dialogue with Trypho 124." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 1. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 261-262. Print.)

                              SAINT IRENAEUS OF LYONS (130 TO 202 CE)

                              "Now it was necessary that man should in the first instance be created; and having been created, should receive growth; and having received growth, should be strengthened; and having been strengthened, should abound; and having abounded, should recover [from the disease of sin]; and having recovered, should be glorified; and being glorified, should see the Lord. For God is He who is yet to be seen, and the beholding of God is productive of immortality, but immortality renders one nigh unto God. ... because we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods; ..."(Irenaeus. "Against Heresies 4: 38: 3-4." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 1. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 522. Print.)

                              "... the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself." (Irenaeus. "Against Heresies 5: Preface." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 1. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 526. Print.)


                              SAINT CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (150 TO 215 CE)

                              "Yea, I say, the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God." (Clement of Alexandria. "Exhortation to the Heathen 1." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 2. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 174. Print.)

                              "For if one knows himself, he will know God; and knowing God, he will be made like God, not by wearing gold or long robes, but by well-doing, and by requiring as few things as possible. Now, God alone is in need of nothing, and rejoices most when He sees us bright with the ornament of intelligence; ... [that man] has the form which is of the Word; he is made like to God; he is beautiful; he does not ornament himself: his is beauty, the true beauty, for it is God; and that man becomes God, since God so wills. Heraclitus, then, rightly said, 'Men are gods, and gods are men.' For the Word Himself is the manifest mystery: God in man, and man God."(Clement of Alexandria. "Instructor 3: 1." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 2. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 271. Print.)

                              "On this wise it is possible for the Gnostic already to have become God. 'I said, Ye are gods, and sons of the highest.' And Empedocles says that the souls of the wise become gods, writing as follows: 'At last prophets, minstrels, and physicians, And the foremost among mortal men, approach; Whence spring gods supreme in honours.'" (Clement of Alexandria. "Stromata 4: 24." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 2. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 437. Print.)

                              "It leads us to the endless and perfect end, teaching us beforehand the future life that we shall lead, according to God, and with gods; after we are freed from all punishment and penalty which we undergo, in consequence of our sins, for salutary discipline. After which redemption and reward and the honours are assigned to those who have become perfect; ... Then become pure in heart, and near to the Lord, there awaits them restoration to everlasting contemplation; and they are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Saviour."(Clement of Alexandria. "Stromata 7: 10." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 2. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 539. Print.)

                              TERTULLIAN OF CARTHAGE (160 TO 220 CE)

                              "Well, then, you say, we ourselves at that rate posses nothing of God. But indeed we do, and shall continue to do - only it is from Him that we receive it, and not from ourselves. For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be ...'" (Tertullian. "Against Hermogenes 5." Ante-Nicene Fathers. Ed. Alexander Roberts. Vol. 3. New York: C. Scribner's Sons, 1905. 479.


                              So, Catherine--when did the apostasy occur?


                              There have always been apostates - those who appear to be Christians but who leave the Church. But as John says, "they went out from us because they were never part of us." There never were any Christians in early Mormonism, or if there were, they quickly left after being confronted with Satanism in that cult - sort of like you teaching here that Satan is a real and powerful god.
                              Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
                                There have always been apostates - those who appear to be Christians but who leave the Church.
                                Are you claiming the Early Church Fathers were apostates who had left the church?

                                Per Admin: Edited list already posted on this forum, the one post may remain above, to continue discussion on ECF, please move to the forum linked, do not post the same list on this forum thread is spamming. Go here:
                                https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...church-fathers
                                Last edited by CARM Admin; 02-13-18, 05:44 PM. Reason: Alert/edit spam of same list

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