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The "Better Answers" By Mormons Was Hopeless Evasion

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  • The "Better Answers" By Mormons Was Hopeless Evasion

    If Mormons are giving us "better answers" here on CARM, then let them tell the Christians here how Isaiah 43:10 doesn't conflict with the Mormon theory of polytheism, and that their God had a Father God, and he had a Father God, going back to infinity. And that men can, and have, become gods? Here is the verse Mormons apparently hate:


    Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    Note that the word "LORD" is in all capitals, meaning that it stands for the Tetragrammaton, or YHWH. YHWH has been transliterated as Jehovah. Of course that is an erroneous way to translate YHWH, but apparently old Joe the seer stone guy didn't know that. In any case, Mormons teach that Jehovah is the pre-incarnate (not the pre-reincarnated, as one Mormon here would say) Jesus.

    What does that mean: Jehovah is saying that NO GOD WAS FORMED before Him or after Him. This totally destroys Mormon polytheism. Their only recourse is to be evasive (as the Better Answers author was), or own up to the truth.

    Was Jehovah lying in Isa. 43:10?
    Last edited by Catherine Aurelia; 05-13-18, 05:43 PM.
    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

  • #2
    Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
    If Mormons are giving us "better answers" here on CARM, then let them tell the Christians here how Isaiah 43:10 doesn't conflict with the Mormon theory of polytheism, and that their God had a Father God, and he had a Father God, going back to infinity. And that men can, and have, become gods? Here is the verse Mormons apparently hate:


    Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    Note that the word "LORD" is in all capitals, meaning that it stands for the Tetragrammaton, or YHWH. YHWH has been transliterated as Jehovah. Of course that is an erroneous way to translate YHWH, but apparently old Joe the seer stone guy didn't know that. In any case, Mormons teach that Jehovah is the pre-incarnate (not the pre-reincarnated, as one Mormon here would say) Jesus.

    What does that mean: Jehovah is saying that NO GOD WAS FORMED before Him or after Him. This totally destroys Mormon polytheism. Their only recourse is to be evasive (as the Better Answers author was), or own up to the truth.

    Was Jehovah lying in Isa. 43:10?
    Chuckle.. this is way to easy folks...

    Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

    1 John 4:14

    We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
    A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

    Comment


    • #3
      <<Chuckle>>No, it isn't, Ralf. NOT for Mormons. Here is a list of 28 Bible verses that teach only one true God:

      http://mit.irr.org/28-biblical-passa...e-only-one-god

      And Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the one God--as even your very own BoM teaches. Jesus is the eternal Word of God, with God from the beginning, Who is, Himself, God. So, apart from GOD, there is no Savior. And apart from God, there is NO OTHER GOD.

      Here is this verse more in context:

      "Isaiah43:10,11 ó Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he:before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior."

      You left off the rest of the verse, Ralf. WHY? NO God came before God and NONE will be formed after Him.

      There go Mormon hopes of exaltation to godhood after death....<<chuckle>>
      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
        <<Chuckle>>No, it isn't, Ralf. NOT for Mormons. Here is a list of 28 Bible verses that teach only one true God:

        http://mit.irr.org/28-biblical-passa...e-only-one-god

        And Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the one God--as even your very own BoM teaches. Jesus is the eternal Word of God, with God from the beginning, Who is, Himself, God. So, apart from GOD, there is no Savior. And apart from God, there is NO OTHER GOD.

        Here is this verse more in context:

        "Isaiah43:10,11 ó Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he:before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior."

        You left off the rest of the verse, Ralf. WHY? NO God came before God and NONE will be formed after Him.

        There go Mormon hopes of exaltation to godhood after death....<<chuckle>>
        A conversation that is going no where fast.... if christians continue to misquote and make untrue claims about the Book of Mormon, then there is no discussion that will change a christians mind... christians have their anti sources and we have the truth of what we accept and teach... no wonder folks there is such a disconnect with extremist.... Christ had to deal with zealots (uncompromising) also...
        A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Ralf View Post

          A conversation that is going no where fast.... if christians continue to misquote and make untrue claims about the Book of Mormon, then there is no discussion that will change a christians mind... christians have their anti sources and we have the truth of what we accept and teach... no wonder folks there is such a disconnect with extremist.... Christ had to deal with zealots (uncompromising) also...
          More evasion....you only SELECTIVELY quoted from that Isaiah verse. WHY did you do that, Ralf? Whereas I quoted the entire verse. Is the Bible an "anti" source?

          Now, deal with the entire verse, Ralf. And what it means.
          "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
          "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
          "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
          "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
          "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Ralf View Post

            A conversation that is going no where fast.... if christians continue to misquote and make untrue claims about the Book of Mormon, then there is no discussion that will change a christians mind... christians have their anti sources and we have the truth of what we accept and teach... no wonder folks there is such a disconnect with extremist.... Christ had to deal with zealots (uncompromising) also...
            Soooooo...you didn't read that list on that irr website--did you, Ralf? All it does is have many quotes FROM THE BIBLE that show that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. Since when is the Bible an "anti" source? So you can safely click on the link and nothing bad will happen to you.

            It isn't we that are "uncompromising" but GOD!

            You failed to deal with what the rest of the Isaiah 42:11 quote says. WHY? Instead, I just see desperate evasion. Why? Is the truth too painful to see?
            Last edited by Bonnie; 05-14-18, 01:33 PM.
            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

              Soooooo...you didn't read that list on that irr website--did you, Ralf? All it does is have many quotes FROM THE BIBLE that show that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. Since when is the Bible an "anti" source? So you can safely click on the link and nothing bad will happen to you.

              It isn't we that are "uncompromising" but GOD!

              You failed to deal with what the rest of the Isaiah 42:11 quote says. WHY? Instead, I just see desperate evasion. Why? Is the truth too painful to see?
              Isaiah 42:11 King James Version (KJV)

              11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

              Maybe Iím missing the deeper meaning here. Or maybe this is where Rock n roll started.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
                Isaiah 42:11 King James Version (KJV)

                11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

                Maybe I’m missing the deeper meaning here. Or maybe this is where Rock n roll started.




                I mistyped. I meant Is. 43:11-12. My bad.

                But I like the idea about the start of rock and roll....
                "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bonnie View Post





                  I mistyped. I meant Is. 43:11-12. My bad.

                  But I like the idea about the start of rock and roll....
                  11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

                  12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God.

                  It is really empty praise if there is no comparison.

                  From mormon scholar Michael S. Heiser " Is the language concerned with making the point that Yahweh is the only god who exists or something else? In Isaiah 43:10-12 Yahweh claims to be unique in his preexistence, in his ability to save, and in his national deliverance. In Isaiah 44:6-8 the focus is on certain attributes of Yahweh. In the texts from Isaiah 45, there are very obvious comparisons between Yahweh's deeds, justice, salvation, and deliverance of his children and the impotence of the other gods. All these passages are transparently concerned with comparing Yahweh to other gods—not comparing Yahweh to beings that do not exist. That would be empty praise indeed."

                  These passages Compare the Lord to other gods. The other gods, are not worshipped, are not the Savior, and are not the Lord of Heaven and and Earth.

                  So while I agree that the Lord God is Almighty God, our Savior, Creator, and whom we worship. The language does the opposite of eliminating the existence of other Gods, it actually promotes the fact that other god's exist, that they are not to be worshipped, and that He is Almighty God, that beside Him is not a Savior, but rather that beside him there is are gods, but that they are not Saviors..

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post

                    11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

                    12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God.

                    It is really empty praise if there is no comparison.

                    From mormon scholar Michael S. Heiser " Is the language concerned with making the point that Yahweh is the only god who exists or something else? In Isaiah 43:10-12 Yahweh claims to be unique in his preexistence, in his ability to save, and in his national deliverance. In Isaiah 44:6-8 the focus is on certain attributes of Yahweh. In the texts from Isaiah 45, there are very obvious comparisons between Yahweh's deeds, justice, salvation, and deliverance of his children and the impotence of the other gods. All these passages are transparently concerned with comparing Yahweh to other godsónot comparing Yahweh to beings that do not exist. That would be empty praise indeed."

                    These passages Compare the Lord to other gods. The other gods, are not worshipped, are not the Savior, and are not the Lord of Heaven and and Earth.

                    So while I agree that the Lord God is Almighty God, our Savior, Creator, and whom we worship. The language does the opposite of eliminating the existence of other Gods, it actually promotes the fact that other god's exist, that they are not to be worshipped, and that He is Almighty God, that beside Him is not a Savior, but rather that beside him there is are gods, but that they are not Saviors..
                    What does Isa. 43:10 teach? By the way, read Heiser thoroughly, he believes that other beings than the True and Living God may be called "elohim," but are CREATED BEINGS. Not equal in substance, power or glory to the ONLY True God. He does not believe in a "god" who had a father, grandfather, blah, blah, blah, and was raised on another planet and was exalted to godhood and appointed as the earth god, as do Mormons.

                    Also, you should refrain from trying to compare Mormon heresies with Heiser's stuff, as he has disowned Mormonism, here: http://drmsh.com/heiser-mormonism-an...l-of-psalm-82/

                    I personally don't think much of Heiser - whenever a Christian tries to focus on just certain portions of God's Word without considering the rest of the Bible, they will eventually go into error. Heiser has done that in my opinion.
                    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                      Soooooo...you didn't read that list on that irr website--did you, Ralf? All it does is have many quotes FROM THE BIBLE that show that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. Since when is the Bible an "anti" source? So you can safely click on the link and nothing bad will happen to you.

                      It isn't we that are "uncompromising" but GOD!

                      You failed to deal with what the rest of the Isaiah 42:11 quote says. WHY? Instead, I just see desperate evasion. Why? Is the truth too painful to see?
                      As this thread says, their "better answers" are hopeless evasion.
                      Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post

                        11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

                        12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God.

                        It is really empty praise if there is no comparison.

                        From mormon scholar Michael S. Heiser " Is the language concerned with making the point that Yahweh is the only god who exists or something else? In Isaiah 43:10-12 Yahweh claims to be unique in his preexistence, in his ability to save, and in his national deliverance. In Isaiah 44:6-8 the focus is on certain attributes of Yahweh. In the texts from Isaiah 45, there are very obvious comparisons between Yahweh's deeds, justice, salvation, and deliverance of his children and the impotence of the other gods. All these passages are transparently concerned with comparing Yahweh to other gods—not comparing Yahweh to beings that do not exist. That would be empty praise indeed."

                        These passages Compare the Lord to other gods. The other gods, are not worshipped, are not the Savior, and are not the Lord of Heaven and and Earth.

                        So while I agree that the Lord God is Almighty God, our Savior, Creator, and whom we worship. The language does the opposite of eliminating the existence of other Gods, it actually promotes the fact that other god's exist, that they are not to be worshipped, and that He is Almighty God, that beside Him is not a Savior, but rather that beside him there is are gods, but that they are not Saviors..
                        Heiser isn't Mormon, though he has been quoted on here before by Mormons. He is entitled to his opinion. However, I don't need to appeal to a scholar, just the Bible. Over and over again, the Bible maintains that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. All others are so-called "gods" and "no gods by nature." Of course the other "gods" in Is. 45 are "impotent" because they don't exist. As the OT also says "the gods of the nations are IDOLS." Are idols deity? And also, it says that the gods are "demons." Demons are behind the worship of ALL false gods. Demons aren't God. Demons aren't deity. Only God--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--IS true Deity.
                        Last edited by Bonnie; 05-15-18, 09:04 AM.
                        "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                        "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                        "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                        "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                        "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                          Heiser isn't Mormon, though he has been quoted on here before by Mormons. He is entitled to his opinion. However, I don't need to appeal to a scholar, just the Bible. Over and over again, the Bible maintains that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. All others are so-called "gods" and "no gods by nature." Of course the other "gods" in Is. 45 are "impotent" because they don't exist. As the OT also says "the gods of the nations are IDOLS." Are idols deity? And also, it says that the gods are "demons." Demons are behind the worship of ALL false gods. Demons aren't God. Demons aren't deity. Only God--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--IS true Deity.
                          Heiser has disavowed the Mormons - if they use his writings, they do so illicitly. Heiser is also into UFOs.

                          http://drmsh.com/heiser-mormonism-an...l-of-psalm-82/
                          Last edited by Catherine Aurelia; 05-15-18, 09:30 AM.
                          Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                            Heiser isn't Mormon, though he has been quoted on here before by Mormons. He is entitled to his opinion. However, I don't need to appeal to a scholar, just the Bible. Over and over again, the Bible maintains that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. All others are so-called "gods" and "no gods by nature." Of course the other "gods" in Is. 45 are "impotent" because they don't exist. As the OT also says "the gods of the nations are IDOLS." Are idols deity? And also, it says that the gods are "demons." Demons are behind the worship of ALL false gods. Demons aren't God. Demons aren't deity. Only God--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--IS true Deity.
                            My bad, you are correct, he is not Mormon, I should have done one more search.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                              Heiser has disavowed the Mormons - if they use his writings, they do so illicitly. Heiser is also into UFOs.

                              http://drmsh.com/heiser-mormonism-an...l-of-psalm-82/
                              He isn’t Mormon, thanks for pointing that out. I should have fact checked myself.

                              I am not into UFO’s.

                              Comment

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