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How Many Mormons Just "Go Along to Get Along?"

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

    You do see, don't you, that intellectual inquiry is suppressed in the Mormon cult? The only time real facts are divulged is when the Internet has made them so apparent that continuing to conceal them is hopeless. We see that in the recent "essays." They had to come clean about Smith's sordid sexual affairs with the wives of other men. While some die-hard TBM non-thinkers like to pretend these were all pious non-sexual sealings, the essays even admitted sex would have been fine since these women, and very young girls, were his "wives." I suppose when you have 13 affidavits from Joe's "wives" saying they had sex with him, it's hard to say they all were liars. One Mormon here brags that Joey had no kids - but that can hardly be proven. Why do people think Smith told his wives married to other men to stay with their husbands? Because if he made a whoops the child would be palmed off as the offspring of the legal husband. , For crying out loud, he married one woman who was several months pregnant. Was it Smith's child? We'll never know. Mormons don't admit the truth until they are forced to - and we can't use enhanced interrogation on the leaders to get them to spill the beans on the cult, since they hide the corporation behind the appellation of a "religion." Mormons, I believe, WANT to be seduced - imagine realizing you have given your life to a huge pack of lies, not to mention a whole lot of money. It must be a terrible feeling.
    What we did was allow others to control the narrative, by waiting to do the essays, and not investing the time and money into the proper research necessary to uncover all the truth that is available, we were left with sordid accusations, half truths, and of course what will sell books—sex.

    So now we are doing the research, we are paying the price, and we are disclosing everything.

    The doctrine and covenants up until the 70’s was using code names for people, this was to make the revelations anonymous and protect family names. Events in Church history may well have been suppressed for the same reason.

    With families being so central to the church, maybe it was best for a time to keep the history in history, rather than broadcast everything. The church was small it was basically just in Utah , and many participants were either alive, or the next generation was. Polygamy was ended, but there would have been people still in polygamous relationships well into the 1930’s and later, the ban was in 1896 and even later in Canada & Mexico.

    This is not that that long ago. Most Church members don’t have a problem with the history, because of testimony in Christ, and a witness of the Book of Mormon. Now that more material is coming to light, we rejoice and have faith in the history that it will continue to show a consistent unwavering love of God and Christ and a desire to Build up the Lords kingdom in preparation for His coming.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post

      What we did was allow others to control the narrative, by waiting to do the essays, and not investing the time and money into the proper research necessary to uncover all the truth that is available, we were left with sordid accusations, half truths, and of course what will sell books—sex.

      So now we are doing the research, we are paying the price, and we are disclosing everything.

      The doctrine and covenants up until the 70’s was using code names for people, this was to make the revelations anonymous and protect family names. Events in Church history may well have been suppressed for the same reason.

      With families being so central to the church, maybe it was best for a time to keep the history in history, rather than broadcast everything. The church was small it was basically just in Utah , and many participants were either alive, or the next generation was. Polygamy was ended, but there would have been people still in polygamous relationships well into the 1930’s and later, the ban was in 1896 and even later in Canada & Mexico.

      This is not that that long ago. Most Church members don’t have a problem with the history, because of testimony in Christ, and a witness of the Book of Mormon. Now that more material is coming to light, we rejoice and have faith in the history that it will continue to show a consistent unwavering love of God and Christ and a desire to Build up the Lords kingdom in preparation for His coming.
      I think, friend, that a whole lot of people have trouble with Joe Smith marrying the wives of other men. Do you?
      Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Ralf View Post

        Where is your source that says they were excommunicated for telling what they found and not for their extremist anti Mormon Doctrine views... where is the truth of your claims...why don’t you post what they were conflicted about and how it went against the teaching of the Church... why not tell the real truth and not some trumped up accusation that has no foundation to it... Extremist won’t since it make them look bad...

        Here is my source for our visitors and guest to review... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Six read it and make up your own mind... hmmmm
        Ralf, I said I wasnt referring to the September 6. You really should read more carefully. There have been other mormon historians who have been fired and/or excommunicated just for publishing their findings.
        ~ There is life after mormonism, and it's good! Just stay close to Christ.
        ~ You can't follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.
        ~ "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post

          What we did was allow others to control the narrative, by waiting to do the essays, and not investing the time and money into the proper research necessary to uncover all the truth that is available, we were left with sordid accusations, half truths, and of course what will sell books—sex.

          So now we are doing the research, we are paying the price, and we are disclosing everything.

          The doctrine and covenants up until the 70’s was using code names for people, this was to make the revelations anonymous and protect family names. Events in Church history may well have been suppressed for the same reason.

          With families being so central to the church, maybe it was best for a time to keep the history in history, rather than broadcast everything. The church was small it was basically just in Utah , and many participants were either alive, or the next generation was. Polygamy was ended, but there would have been people still in polygamous relationships well into the 1930’s and later, the ban was in 1896 and even later in Canada & Mexico.

          This is not that that long ago. Most Church members don’t have a problem with the history, because of testimony in Christ, and a witness of the Book of Mormon. Now that more material is coming to light, we rejoice and have faith in the history that it will continue to show a consistent unwavering love of God and Christ and a desire to Build up the Lords kingdom in preparation for His coming.
          But instead, its showing lies, deceit, coverups, false prophecies and false doctrine.
          ~ There is life after mormonism, and it's good! Just stay close to Christ.
          ~ You can't follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.
          ~ "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

            I think, friend, that a whole lot of people have trouble with Joe Smith marrying the wives of other men. Do you?
            I have trouble with how people describe these relationships in order to suit their views.

            On one side we have members who deny such sealings took place.

            On the other we have some accusing Joseph and these women of perversions, adultery, secrecy, abominations and sordid affairs.

            the truth is in the middle. We don’t know all the truth yet. What we do know is that some women who were married were also sealed to Joseph. We know that the revelation on polygamy was not a how to guide or manual, but rather a doctrinal approach to the reasons ancient prophets approached polygamy .

            We don’t have a mass dissafection of these women after the death of Joseph. Some became the plural wives of other men.




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            • #36
              Originally posted by Magdalena View Post
              Imagine my surprize.
              Imagine MY surprise the first (and second and third) time you claimed that you promised to be murdered as a punishment for spilling temple secrets.

              That is one reason I don't automatically believe the assertions coming from extremist antimormonism (as a group).
              "PWCSLWRTIMSL"="PeopleWhoCSLewisWasReferringToInMy SignatureLine"
              ..whenever a person's religious conversation dwells..even frequently on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition-C.S. Lewis

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Magdalena View Post

                Thats false. Several were, and Im not even talking about the September 6.
                You are simply misinformed, or you have been lied to. If you get your information from, for example, Michael Quinn, you have been lied to. He has maintained for years that he was excommunicated for his work as an historian. The Church claimed it had excommunicated him for homosexuality. For about three years he denied that his excommunication was for homosexuality because he wasn’t gay. Then he decided that he was gay but that still wasn’t the reason, it was only the pretext. The Church, according to him, excommunicated Him because they wanted to silence him. He offered no explanation as to how excommunication might serve to silence him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                  You are simply misinformed, or you have been lied to. If you get your information from, for example, Michael Quinn, you have been lied to. He has maintained for years that he was excommunicated for his work as an historian. The Church claimed it had excommunicated him for homosexuality. For about three years he denied that his excommunication was for homosexuality because he wasn’t gay. Then he decided that he was gay but that still wasn’t the reason, it was only the pretext. The Church, according to him, excommunicated Him because they wanted to silence him. He offered no explanation as to how excommunication might serve to silence him.
                  How many times do I have to say I wasnt talking about those 6, including Quinn. But you love to point the finger at him, dont you.
                  ~ There is life after mormonism, and it's good! Just stay close to Christ.
                  ~ You can't follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.
                  ~ "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post

                    Imagine MY surprise the first (and second and third) time you claimed that you promised to be murdered as a punishment for spilling temple secrets.

                    That is one reason I don't automatically believe the assertions coming from extremist antimormonism (as a group).
                    Nothing you say means anything to me, jeff.
                    ~ There is life after mormonism, and it's good! Just stay close to Christ.
                    ~ You can't follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.
                    ~ "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
                      I have trouble with how people describe these relationships in order to suit their views.

                      On one side we have members who deny such sealings took place.

                      On the other we have some accusing Joseph and these women of perversions, adultery, secrecy, abominations and sordid affairs.

                      the truth is in the middle. We don’t know all the truth yet. What we do know is that some women who were married were also sealed to Joseph. We know that the revelation on polygamy was not a how to guide or manual, but rather a doctrinal approach to the reasons ancient prophets approached polygamy .

                      We don’t have a mass dissafection of these women after the death of Joseph. Some became the plural wives of other men.



                      We know that some women who were already married also slept with Smith. They said they were married in "the very deed."

                      It would be good if you read more of their own stories. "Nauvoo Polygamy" is a good book, and so is "In Sacred Loneliness."

                      This website has brief histories of his wives...

                      http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org

                      "Wife No. 19", autobiography by Ann Eliza Young is very revealing.
                      ~ There is life after mormonism, and it's good! Just stay close to Christ.
                      ~ You can't follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.
                      ~ "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post

                        Imagine MY surprise the first (and second and third) time you claimed that you promised to be murdered as a punishment for spilling temple secrets.

                        That is one reason I don't automatically believe the assertions coming from extremist antimormonism (as a group).
                        Are you implying that there were no death oaths in the endowment prior to 1990?

                        Except the death oaths were once part of the endowment ceremony. The endowment evolved over the years. By 1990 the throat-slitting, etc. pantomines were done away with.

                        Here is a transcript of the endowment from 1931:

                        http://packham.n4m.org/endow31.htm

                        Adam--"You will now arise, push back the seats, place the robe on the right shoulder, put on your caps and moccasins, and receive the first token of the Aaronic priesthood. And you will not forget that the utmost secrecy is to be observed with respect to these proceedings. They are not to be even spoken of to each other." The left arm is here placed at the square, palm to the front, the right hand and arm raised to the neck, holding the palm downwards and thumb under the right ear. Adam--"We, and each of us, covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the first token of the Aaronic priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so, we agree that our throats be cut from ear to ear and our tongues torn out by their roots." Adam--"All bow your heads and say Yes." As the last words are spoken the right hand is drawn swiftly across the throat and the hands dropped from the square to the sides. The Name is the new name given with the garments. The Grip--Hands clasped, pressing the knuckle of the index finger with the thumb. Sign--In executing the sign of the penalty, the right hand, palm down, is drawn sharply across the throat, then dropped from the square to the side.
                        Here is a bit more:

                        Peter--"The brethren and sisters will now stand, push back the seats, place the robe on the left shoulder, and receive the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood." "We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal the secrets of this, the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, grip or penalty. Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field." "All bow your heads and say yes." The Sign is made by placing the left arm on the square at the level of the shoulder, placing the right hand across the chest with the thumb extended and then drawing it rapidly from left to right and dropping it to the side.
                        .
                        Last edited by CARM Admin; 05-17-18, 07:39 PM. Reason: alert/posting portion with quotations is not illegal, post may remain
                        "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                        "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                        "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                        "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                        "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Magdalena View Post
                          How many times do I have to say I wasnt talking about those 6, including Quinn. But you love to point the finger at him, dont you.
                          Then you are making unsupported statements.

                          “An Evangelical Pastor killed his male lover to hide his secret.” Prove that he didn’t. That’s going to be difficult unless I tell you who I was talking about.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Magdalena View Post
                            Nothing you say means anything to me, jeff.
                            But it carries meaning for just about everyone else. That’s likely the reason he posts. If he were talking only to you he wouldn’t have chosen a public forum.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Magdalena View Post

                              We know that some women who were already married also slept with Smith. They said they were married in "the very deed."

                              It would be good if you read more of their own stories. "Nauvoo Polygamy" is a good book, and so is "In Sacred Loneliness."


                              "Wife No. 19", autobiography by Ann Eliza Young is very revealing.
                              You were the poster who was very concerned with Mormons using legal loopholes and technicalities, yes?

                              You claimed some of Joseph’s wives were already married but you failed to mention that they were also divorced. They were not divorced in the manner that we do today by court decree and document. They were divorced in the manner of that day by public announcement and consent (since courts and documents were not always available).

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                                Are you implying that there were no death oaths in the endowment prior to 1990?

                                Except the death oaths were once part of the endowment ceremony. The endowment evolved over the years. By 1990 the throat-slitting, etc. pantomines were done away with.

                                Here is a transcript of the endowment from 1931:

                                Here is a bit more:
                                There has never been, not prior to 1990 nor after 1990 and not from the very first day of Temple use in 1846, there has not been a single death due to violence in the Temple. Nor has there been a single individual who has lost his life over any of the ordinances of the Temple.

                                No, there have never been and there are not currently any “death oaths” in the Temple. That is simply a convenient mischaracterization of the Endowment, an attempt to paint it as weird and sinister. There are rituals of all sorts throughout Christendom and the only thing that keeps them from being weird and sinister is cultural acceptance.

                                If you saw 50 men coming down the street dressed in white sheets with tall conical hats covering their faces and holes cut out for their eyes, if they were carrying torches and a single rough hewn wooden cross, if you were a black man in the American south, what would you do? Run for your life. If you were a Catholic in Southern Europe you would stand solemnly and make the sign of the cross as they passed by celebrating the Feast of the Virgin.

                                Wierd and Sinister are all about culture and context.

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