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Is This An Example of a Mormon Leader Lying for the Lord?

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  • Is This An Example of a Mormon Leader Lying for the Lord?

    Was this Mormon prophet simply clueless, or was he covering up for Joseph Smith?:


    "Question: Did Joseph Fielding Smith say that it was not reasonable for Joseph Smith to use a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon?

    Joseph Fielding Smith said "It hardly seems reasonable to suppose that the Prophet would substitute something evidently inferior under these circumstances"


    Joseph Fielding Smith said the following:
    While the statement has been made by some writers that the Prophet Joseph Smith used a seer stone part of the time in his translating of the record, and information points to the fact that he did have in his possession such a stone, yet there is no authentic statement in the history of the Church which states that the use of such a stone was made in that translation. The information is all hearsay, and personally, I do not believe that this stone was used for this purpose. The reason I give for this conclusion is found in the statement of the Lord to the Brother of Jared as recorded in Ether 3:22–24. These stones, the Urim and Thummim which were given to the Brother of Jared, were preserved for this very purpose of translating the record, both of the Jaredites and the Nephites. Then again the Prophet was impressed by Moroni with the fact that these stones were given for that very purpose. It hardly seems reasonable to suppose that the Prophet would substitute something evidently inferior under these circumstances. It may have been so, but it is so easy for a story of this kind to be circulated due to the fact that the Prophet did possess a seer stone, which he may have used for some other purposes.
    One critical website makes the claim: "So apparently even the 10th president of the Church thinks that using a stone to translate the Book of Mormon with 'hardly seems reasonable.'" This is incorrect.

    Joseph Fielding Smith did not say that it was not reasonable to use a stone to translate the Book of Mormon. After all, the Nephite interpreters were themselves comprised of two seer stones. Joseph Fielding Smith had no issue with that. What Joseph Fielding Smith thought was unreasonable was that Joseph Smith would use his own "inferior" seer stone instead of the Nephite interpreters."

    These quotes are straight from FAIR, and one may read their "spin" at the FAIR website. Reference links removed. (
    Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:225–26.)

    Now, tell me this - did Joseph Fielding Smith lie? I rather think he did. How could he not know, being part of the Smith family, the tradition surrounding the supposed "translation" of the never-seen gold plates, swooped conveniently away by the demon Moroni?

    Now, David Whitmer was a supposed "witness" to the existence of the plates. He also observed Smith "translate" the plates:

    "“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. And in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe. And when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man. The characters I speak of are the engravings on the golden plates from which the book was translated.”

    (source:
    source: “By the Gift and Power of God” By Richard Lloyd Anderson, LDS.org.)

    What we see here, folks, is Joseph Fielding Smith covering up the truth, and LDS.org spinning the truth at its site. Mormons never tell the truth unless forced to do so by the Internet. One recent example of this are the essays the cult has published divulging the extent of Smith's polygamy. Does anybody seroiusly think the cult would have admitted the truth unless forced to do so by the internet? Of course not. Lying for their "lord" is permissable until Mormons are FORCED to tell the truth. We see it here all the time. I've had at least one Mormon make outrageously false statements about history, and when proven wrong, adamantly deny that he didn't make it, or he goes on to defend his statement while everybody can see he was completely in error. Pride in Mormons knows no boundaries.

    Anybody naive enough to conclue that the leaders of Mormonism
    have been honest with them, should remember McConkie's dying statement that the organization had not been honest with the members. And he was a "false" apostle.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI4nsngvcGw

    Come on, Mormons, think - don't just swallow all the spin and propaganda coming out of SLC.
    Last edited by Catherine Aurelia; 05-16-18, 08:34 AM.
    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

  • #2
    Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
    Was this Mormon prophet simply clueless, or was he covering up for Joseph Smith?:


    "Question: Did Joseph Fielding Smith say that it was not reasonable for Joseph Smith to use a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon?

    Joseph Fielding Smith said "It hardly seems reasonable to suppose that the Prophet would substitute something evidently inferior under these circumstances"


    Joseph Fielding Smith said the following:
    While the statement has been made by some writers that the Prophet Joseph Smith used a seer stone part of the time in his translating of the record, and information points to the fact that he did have in his possession such a stone, yet there is no authentic statement in the history of the Church which states that the use of such a stone was made in that translation. The information is all hearsay, and personally, I do not believe that this stone was used for this purpose. The reason I give for this conclusion is found in the statement of the Lord to the Brother of Jared as recorded in Ether 3:22–24. These stones, the Urim and Thummim which were given to the Brother of Jared, were preserved for this very purpose of translating the record, both of the Jaredites and the Nephites. Then again the Prophet was impressed by Moroni with the fact that these stones were given for that very purpose. It hardly seems reasonable to suppose that the Prophet would substitute something evidently inferior under these circumstances. It may have been so, but it is so easy for a story of this kind to be circulated due to the fact that the Prophet did possess a seer stone, which he may have used for some other purposes.
    One critical website makes the claim: "So apparently even the 10th president of the Church thinks that using a stone to translate the Book of Mormon with 'hardly seems reasonable.'" This is incorrect.

    Joseph Fielding Smith did not say that it was not reasonable to use a stone to translate the Book of Mormon. After all, the Nephite interpreters were themselves comprised of two seer stones. Joseph Fielding Smith had no issue with that. What Joseph Fielding Smith thought was unreasonable was that Joseph Smith would use his own "inferior" seer stone instead of the Nephite interpreters."

    These quotes are straight from FAIR, and one may read their "spin" at the FAIR website. Reference links removed. (
    Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:225–26.)

    Now, tell me this - did Joseph Fielding Smith lie? I rather think he did. How could he not know, being part of the Smith family, the tradition surrounding the supposed "translation" of the never-seen gold plates, swooped conveniently away by the demon Moroni?

    Now, David Whitmer was a supposed "witness" to the existence of the plates. He also observed Smith "translate" the plates:

    "“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. And in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe. And when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man. The characters I speak of are the engravings on the golden plates from which the book was translated.”

    (source:
    source: “By the Gift and Power of God” By Richard Lloyd Anderson, LDS.org.)

    What we see here, folks, is Joseph Fielding Smith covering up the truth, and LDS.org spinning the truth at its site. Mormons never tell the truth unless forced to do so by the Internet. One recent example of this are the essays the cult has published divulging the extent of Smith's polygamy. Does anybody seroiusly think the cult would have admitted the truth unless forced to do so by the internet? Of course not. Lying for their "lord" is permissable until Mormons are FORCED to tell the truth. We see it here all the time.

    Anybody naive enough to conclue that the leaders of Mormonism
    have been honest with them, should remember McConkie's dying statement that the organization had not been honest with the members. And he was a "false" apostle.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI4nsngvcGw

    Come on, Mormons, think - don't just swallow all the spin and propaganda coming out of SLC.
    Didn't Smith's own mother say that JS used his "seer" stone to "translate" the golden plates, at least, part of the time?
    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
    "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
    "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

      Didn't Smith's own mother say that JS used his "seer" stone to "translate" the golden plates, at least, part of the time?
      I have her book, but haven't had time to read it yet. I think she said he "detached" the seer stones from the Urim and Thummin and used them - in that way - to translate. I know of no modern Mormons who agree with that. The seer stone or stones the cult has locked away, and which they admit were used in the translation, don't seem to have a supernatural origin at all. The one they provided a picture of looks like asbestos to me. Emma, Smith's sometimes wife said he placed his seer stone in a hat and in that manner translated. You'd think she would have been savvy enough to know that something fishy was up. FAIR makes it sound like everybody was doing this - and my family has been here since the 17th century, and I can find no record of them putting stones in a hat to prognosticate anything. In fact, they were all pretty strict-laced Congregationalists (Puritains). It's a case of Mormons justifying poor behavior by pointing to others, which sadly we see on CARM all the time.
      Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

      Comment


      • #4
        Oh I see....maybe I am mixing up what Lucy said with what Emma said. Thanks for the clarification.
        "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
        "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
        "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
        "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
        "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
          Oh I see....maybe I am mixing up what Lucy said with what Emma said. Thanks for the clarification.
          Emma was with him all the time when he first began his phony "translation" process. Here is how BYU tried to justify the paradigm shift from Smitty not using his seer stone to Joey using it:

          https://rsc.byu.edu/review/fall-2016...hs-seer-stones

          They pretend all this is "new information," when we all know the cult leaders had Smith asbestos seer stone in their vault all the time.

          Emma's statement: "“Smith’s wife, Emma Smith Bidamon, was interviewed late in her life by her son Joseph Smith III about her knowledge of the early [p.99] church. This interview took place in February 1879 in the presence of Lewis C. Bidamon, her husband. At one point Emma stated the following: ‘In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us… .'” (Mormon Think)

          The cult had this info, Harris's stastement and Whitmer's. There was nothing "new" about this information. The cult simply lied as long as it could.
          Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

          Comment


          • #6
            What is sad is this: In another fifty years, when we are all long gone probably, they'll be naive Mormons who will say, "we always said he used his own seer stone" for translation. Everybody was using one." Then they'll tell us that the BoM may just be a piece of pious fiction, and we shouldn't worry about how Joe got the inspiration to write it.
            Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

              Emma was with him all the time when he first began his phony "translation" process. Here is how BYU tried to justify the paradigm shift from Smitty not using his seer stone to Joey using it:

              https://rsc.byu.edu/review/fall-2016...hs-seer-stones

              They pretend all this is "new information," when we all know the cult leaders had Smith asbestos seer stone in their vault all the time.

              Emma's statement: "“Smith’s wife, Emma Smith Bidamon, was interviewed late in her life by her son Joseph Smith III about her knowledge of the early [p.99] church. This interview took place in February 1879 in the presence of Lewis C. Bidamon, her husband. At one point Emma stated the following: ‘In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us… .'” (Mormon Think)

              The cult had this info, Harris's stastement and Whitmer's. There was nothing "new" about this information. The cult simply lied as long as it could.
              Sure sounds like it. Thanks.
              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
              "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
              "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
                Was this Mormon prophet simply clueless, or was he covering up for Joseph Smith?:


                "Question: Did Joseph Fielding Smith say that it was not reasonable for Joseph Smith to use a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon?

                Joseph Fielding Smith said "It hardly seems reasonable to suppose that the Prophet would substitute something evidently inferior under these circumstances"


                Joseph Fielding Smith said the following:
                While the statement has been made by some writers that the Prophet Joseph Smith used a seer stone part of the time in his translating of the record, and information points to the fact that he did have in his possession such a stone, yet there is no authentic statement in the history of the Church which states that the use of such a stone was made in that translation. The information is all hearsay, and personally, I do not believe that this stone was used for this purpose. The reason I give for this conclusion is found in the statement of the Lord to the Brother of Jared as recorded in Ether 3:22–24. These stones, the Urim and Thummim which were given to the Brother of Jared, were preserved for this very purpose of translating the record, both of the Jaredites and the Nephites. Then again the Prophet was impressed by Moroni with the fact that these stones were given for that very purpose. It hardly seems reasonable to suppose that the Prophet would substitute something evidently inferior under these circumstances. It may have been so, but it is so easy for a story of this kind to be circulated due to the fact that the Prophet did possess a seer stone, which he may have used for some other purposes.
                One critical website makes the claim: "So apparently even the 10th president of the Church thinks that using a stone to translate the Book of Mormon with 'hardly seems reasonable.'" This is incorrect.

                Joseph Fielding Smith did not say that it was not reasonable to use a stone to translate the Book of Mormon. After all, the Nephite interpreters were themselves comprised of two seer stones. Joseph Fielding Smith had no issue with that. What Joseph Fielding Smith thought was unreasonable was that Joseph Smith would use his own "inferior" seer stone instead of the Nephite interpreters."

                These quotes are straight from FAIR, and one may read their "spin" at the FAIR website. Reference links removed. (
                Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:225–26.)

                Now, tell me this - did Joseph Fielding Smith lie? I rather think he did. How could he not know, being part of the Smith family, the tradition surrounding the supposed "translation" of the never-seen gold plates, swooped conveniently away by the demon Moroni?

                Now, David Whitmer was a supposed "witness" to the existence of the plates. He also observed Smith "translate" the plates:

                "“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. And in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe. And when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man. The characters I speak of are the engravings on the golden plates from which the book was translated.”

                (source:
                source: “By the Gift and Power of God” By Richard Lloyd Anderson, LDS.org.)

                What we see here, folks, is Joseph Fielding Smith covering up the truth, and LDS.org spinning the truth at its site. Mormons never tell the truth unless forced to do so by the Internet. One recent example of this are the essays the cult has published divulging the extent of Smith's polygamy. Does anybody seroiusly think the cult would have admitted the truth unless forced to do so by the internet? Of course not. Lying for their "lord" is permissable until Mormons are FORCED to tell the truth. We see it here all the time. I've had at least one Mormon make outrageously false statements about history, and when proven wrong, adamantly deny that he didn't make it, or he goes on to defend his statement while everybody can see he was completely in error. Pride in Mormons knows no boundaries.

                Anybody naive enough to conclue that the leaders of Mormonism
                have been honest with them, should remember McConkie's dying statement that the organization had not been honest with the members. And he was a "false" apostle.

                Come on, Mormons, think - don't just swallow all the spin and propaganda coming out of SLC.
                I read through the OP looking for something that might be used critically of the Church. I found nothing.

                The only allegation here is the one made by the OP, that Joseph Fielding Smith lied. That allegation is based wholly on the fact that Joseph Fielding Smith wasn't convinced that Joseph Smith used his own seer stone rather than the other stones, the Urim and Thummim provided him. Joseph Fielding Smith thought that to be an inferior stone, meaning inferior to the Urim and Thummim.

                The OP claims "he must have known". Obviously he did know about the seer stone and the account of its use since he was talking about exactly that. He, Joseph Fielding Smith, wasn't convinced that the accounts were true. He said why.

                Other than the OP, does anyone else see a problem with Joseph Fielding Smith refusing to be convinced of the accuracy of the accounts?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Of course you found nothing. Nobody expected you to do so.
                  Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
                    What is sad is this: In another fifty years, when we are all long gone probably, they'll be naive Mormons who will say, "we always said he used his own seer stone" for translation. Everybody was using one." Then they'll tell us that the BoM may just be a piece of pious fiction, and we shouldn't worry about how Joe got the inspiration to write it.
                    Just as they tried to sidestep the Lucifer / Preacher endowment enactment. Deny, deny, deny. Then lo and behold they admitted to it! Suddenly, it was gone.
                    So much for the secrecy of the sacred temple enactments. It was widely published that the enactment had been discontinued. A lot of the initiates thought it strange and discomforting that they would be instructed by Lucifer to put on the green apron ( which was the symbol of his priesthood and power), upon his requirement they do so.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Grandpa Reader View Post

                      Just as they tried to sidestep the Lucifer / Preacher endowment enactment. Deny, deny, deny. Then lo and behold they admitted to it! Suddenly, it was gone.
                      So much for the secrecy of the sacred temple enactments. It was widely published that the enactment had been discontinued. A lot of the initiates thought it strange and discomforting that they would be instructed by Lucifer to put on the green apron ( which was the symbol of his priesthood and power), upon his requirement they do so.
                      Kind of creepy, isn't it? But Satan is still i the endowment bragging that if Mormons don't keep their "covenants" with the cult, they will come under his power. And that's more than creepy.
                      Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                        Oh I see....maybe I am mixing up what Lucy said with what Emma said....
                        Sure sounds like it. Thanks.
                        "PWCSLWRTIMSL"="PeopleWhoCSLewisWasReferringToInMy SignatureLine"
                        ..whenever a person's religious conversation dwells..even frequently on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition-C.S. Lewis

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
                          Kind of creepy, isn't it? But Satan is still i the endowment bragging that if Mormons don't keep their "covenants" with the cult, they will come under his power. And that's more than creepy.
                          Well, it does creep me out to think that by breaking promises to God, a person could end up coming under the devil's power and becoming part of extremist antimormonism.
                          "PWCSLWRTIMSL"="PeopleWhoCSLewisWasReferringToInMy SignatureLine"
                          ..whenever a person's religious conversation dwells..even frequently on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition-C.S. Lewis

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post

                            Sure sounds like it. Thanks.
                            I admitted it--didn't I? I am perfectly willing to admit when I have made a mistake. And just proved it.
                            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post

                              Well, it does creep me out to think that by breaking promises to God, a person could end up coming under the devil's power and becoming part of extremist antimormonism.
                              Why would Satan warn the attendees NOT to disobey and break their covenants, or they WOULD be in his power? Wouldn't he want people to disobey and break their covenants--so they WOULD be IN his power?
                              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                              "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                              "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                              Comment

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