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How Joe Smith EXTORTED money from Martin Harris

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  • How Joe Smith EXTORTED money from Martin Harris

    Smith gave a whole bunch of revelations, and many were addressed to individuals. This particular one was addressed to the rather wealthy, Martin Harris, when Joe needed money to publish the Book of Mormon:
    Revelation, circa Summer 1829 [D&C 19]
    • Document Transcript
    CHAPTER XVI.
    1 A
    of God and not of man to you, , given ( , New-York, March, 1830,) by him who is eternal:
    YEA, even I, I am he, the beginning and the end: Yea, Alpha and Omega,
    Christ the Lord, the Redeemer of the world:
    2 I having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father:
    3 Having done this, that I might subdue all things unto myself:
    4 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works, and the deeds which he hath done.

    5 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I God am endless:
    6 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth:
    7 Yea, to those who are found on my left hand,
    nevertheless, it is not written, that there shall be no end to this torment; but it is written endless torment.
    8 Again, it is written eternal damnation: wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it [p. 39] might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory:
    9 Wherefore, I will explain unto you, this mystery, for it is mete unto you, to know even as mine apostles.
    10 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
    11 For behold, the mystery of Godliness how great is it? for behold I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand, is endless punishment, for endless is my name:
    12 Wherefore—
    Eternal punishment) Endless punishment
    is God’s punishment is God’s punishment:
    13 Wherefore, I command you by my name, and by my Almighty power, that you repent: repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore:
    14 How sore you know not!
    15 How exquisite you know not!
    16 Yea, how hard to bear you know not!
    17 For behold, I God have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer, if they would repent, but if they would not repent, they must suffer even as I:
    18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore,
    both body and spirit:
    19 And would that I might not drink the bitter cup and shrink:
    20 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men:
    21 Wherefore, I command you again by my Al [p. 40]mighty power, that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

    22 And I command you, that you preach nought but repentance; and show not these things, neither speak these things unto the world, for they can not bear meat, but milk they must receive:
    23 Wherefore, they must not know these things lest they perish:
    24 Wherefore, learn of me, and listen to my words; walk in the meekness of my Spirit and you shall have peace in me, Jesus Christ by the will of the Father.
    25 And again: I command you, that thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.

    26 Nor seek thy neighbor’s life.
    27 And again: I command you, that thou shalt not covet thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing of the book of Mormon which contains the truth and the word of God,
    which is my word to , that soon it may go to the Jew, of which they are a remnant; that they may believe the gospel, and look not for a Messiah to come which has already come.
    28 And again: I command you, that thou shalt pray vocally as well as to thyself:
    29 Yea, before the world as well as in secret; in public as well as in private.
    30 And thou shalt declare glad tidings; yea, publish it upon the mountains, and upon every high place, and among every people which thou shalt be permitted to see.

    31 And thou shalt do it with all humility, trusting in me, reviling not against revilers. [p. 41]
    32 And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior and remission of sins by
    and by fire; yea, even the Holy Ghost.

    33 Behold this is a great and the last
    which I shall give unto you:
    34 For this shall suffice for thy daily walk even unto the end of thy life.
    35 And misery thou shalt receive, if thou wilt slight these counsels; Yea, even destruction of thyself and property.
    36 Impart a portion of thy property; Yea, even a part of thy lands and all save the support of thy family.
    37 Pay the printer’s debt.
    38 Release thyself from bondage.
    39 Leave thy house and home, except when thou shalt desire to see them.
    40 And speak freely to all: Yea, preach, exhort, declare the truth, even with a loud voice; with a sound of rejoicing, crying
    blessed be the name of the Lord God.
    41 Pray always and I will pour out my Spirit upon you, and great shall be your blessing:
    42 Yea, even more than if you should obtain treasures of earth, and corruptibleness to the extent thereof.
    43 Behold, canst thou read this without rejoicing, and lifting up thy heart for gladness; or canst thou run about longer as a blind guide;
    or canst thou be humble and meek and conduct thyself wisely before me:
    44 Yea, come unto me thy Savior. Amen. [p. 42]

    (The Joseph Smith Papers: http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/pap...ull-transcript )

    Some points I'd like to note.

    1. Martin Harris is particularly cautioned not to get into the deeper doctrines, but push the milk. Apparently he was spouting off to potential converts, and Mormon jesus got irritated. Apparently the excuse is this: if the potential converts would know the truth they would "perish." So much for honesty in the cult.

    2. Mormon jesus repeatedly claims to be GOD! This truth is underplayed now in today's Mormonism, where their "jesus" is just one of the kids, Satan's brother.

    3. Apparently Martin had roving eyes, which was confirmed by his wife.

    4. Martin is not to "covet" his own money - gee, what a shock. Hand it over to the cult!

    5. "Endless punishment" jiust means' God's punishment - stop talking about an eternal Hell where unbelievers are sent.

    6. Pay the debt Joe owed to the printer - or there will be consequences. Thus, he can release himself from bondage.

    7. He must repent since apparently he hasn't done so.

    My question is this, how can anybody in their right mind think this is a real revelation from Jesus? It's a self-serving form of extortion by Joseph Smith, playing the role of God, speaking as Mormon "jesus." And poor Martin is being used as a sucker, as are so many Mormons today.

    source of revelation: The Joseph Smith papers available on line.
    Last edited by Catherine Aurelia; 05-16-18, 10:16 AM.
    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

  • #2
    Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
    Smith gave a whole bunch of revelations, and many were addressed to individuals. This particular one was addressed to the rather wealthy, Martin Harris, when Joe needed money to publish the Book of Mormon:
    Revelation, circa Summer 1829 [D&C 19]
    • Document Transcript
    CHAPTER XVI.
    1 A
    of God and not of man to you, , given ( , New-York, March, 1830,) by him who is eternal:
    YEA, even I, I am he, the beginning and the end: Yea, Alpha and Omega,
    Christ the Lord, the Redeemer of the world:
    2 I having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father:
    3 Having done this, that I might subdue all things unto myself:
    4 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works, and the deeds which he hath done.

    5 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I God am endless:
    6 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth:
    7 Yea, to those who are found on my left hand,
    nevertheless, it is not written, that there shall be no end to this torment; but it is written endless torment.
    8 Again, it is written eternal damnation: wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it [p. 39] might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory:
    9 Wherefore, I will explain unto you, this mystery, for it is mete unto you, to know even as mine apostles.
    10 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
    11 For behold, the mystery of Godliness how great is it? for behold I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand, is endless punishment, for endless is my name:
    12 Wherefore—
    Eternal punishment) Endless punishment
    is God’s punishment is God’s punishment:
    13 Wherefore, I command you by my name, and by my Almighty power, that you repent: repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore:
    14 How sore you know not!
    15 How exquisite you know not!
    16 Yea, how hard to bear you know not!
    17 For behold, I God have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer, if they would repent, but if they would not repent, they must suffer even as I:
    18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore,
    both body and spirit:
    19 And would that I might not drink the bitter cup and shrink:
    20 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men:
    21 Wherefore, I command you again by my Al [p. 40]mighty power, that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

    22 And I command you, that you preach nought but repentance; and show not these things, neither speak these things unto the world, for they can not bear meat, but milk they must receive:
    23 Wherefore, they must not know these things lest they perish:
    24 Wherefore, learn of me, and listen to my words; walk in the meekness of my Spirit and you shall have peace in me, Jesus Christ by the will of the Father.
    25 And again: I command you, that thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.

    26 Nor seek thy neighbor’s life.
    27 And again: I command you, that thou shalt not covet thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing of the book of Mormon which contains the truth and the word of God,
    which is my word to , that soon it may go to the Jew, of which they are a remnant; that they may believe the gospel, and look not for a Messiah to come which has already come.
    28 And again: I command you, that thou shalt pray vocally as well as to thyself:
    29 Yea, before the world as well as in secret; in public as well as in private.
    30 And thou shalt declare glad tidings; yea, publish it upon the mountains, and upon every high place, and among every people which thou shalt be permitted to see.

    31 And thou shalt do it with all humility, trusting in me, reviling not against revilers. [p. 41]
    32 And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior and remission of sins by
    and by fire; yea, even the Holy Ghost.

    33 Behold this is a great and the last
    which I shall give unto you:
    34 For this shall suffice for thy daily walk even unto the end of thy life.
    35 And misery thou shalt receive, if thou wilt slight these counsels; Yea, even destruction of thyself and property.
    36 Impart a portion of thy property; Yea, even a part of thy lands and all save the support of thy family.
    37 Pay the printer’s debt.
    38 Release thyself from bondage.
    39 Leave thy house and home, except when thou shalt desire to see them.
    40 And speak freely to all: Yea, preach, exhort, declare the truth, even with a loud voice; with a sound of rejoicing, crying
    blessed be the name of the Lord God.
    41 Pray always and I will pour out my Spirit upon you, and great shall be your blessing:
    42 Yea, even more than if you should obtain treasures of earth, and corruptibleness to the extent thereof.
    43 Behold, canst thou read this without rejoicing, and lifting up thy heart for gladness; or canst thou run about longer as a blind guide;
    or canst thou be humble and meek and conduct thyself wisely before me:
    44 Yea, come unto me thy Savior. Amen. [p. 42]

    (The Joseph Smith Papers: http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/pap...ull-transcript )

    Some points I'd like to note.

    1. Martin Harris is particularly cautioned not to get into the deeper doctrines, but push the milk. Apparently he was spouting off to potential converts, and Mormon jesus got irritated. Apparently the excuse is this: if the potential converts would know the truth they would "perish." So much for honesty in the cult.

    2. Mormon jesus repeatedly claims to be GOD! This truth is underplayed now in today's Mormonism, where their "jesus" is just one of the kids, Satan's brother.

    3. Apparently Martin had roving eyes, which was confirmed by his wife.

    4. Martin is not to "covet" his own money - gee, what a shock. Hand it over to the cult!

    5. "Endless punishment" jiust means' God's punishment - stop talking about an eternal Hell where unbelievers are sent.

    6. Pay the debt Joe owed to the printer - or there will be consequences. Thus, he can release himself from bondage.

    7. He must repent since apparently he hasn't done so.

    My question is this, how can anybody in their right mind think this is a real revelation from Jesus? It's a self-serving form of extortion by Joseph Smith, playing the role of God, speaking as Mormon "jesus." And poor Martin is being used as a sucker, as are so many Mormons today.

    source of revelation: The Joseph Smith papers available on line.
    What would have been a better way for God to finance the Book of Mormon? How should he have let Martin know?

    Why on earth did Jesus let the widow cast in her mite? Why did Elijah make a woman make him bread when it was her last, and she and her son were dying? Why did Jesus finance his ministry on the backs of rich women? I canít imagine that being received well...oh wait...nope it wasnít.

    Sacrifice brings forth blessings of heaven. Martin did not die a rich man, he died a blessed one.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
      What would have been a better way for God to finance the Book of Mormon? How should he have let Martin know?

      Why on earth did Jesus let the widow cast in her mite? Why did Elijah make a woman make him bread when it was her last, and she and her son were dying? Why did Jesus finance his ministry on the backs of rich women? I can’t imagine that being received well...oh wait...nope it wasn’t.

      Sacrifice brings forth blessings of heaven. Martin did not die a rich man, he died a blessed one.
      Here would have been a better way: the printer would embrace the truth of the Book of Mormon by the power of the Holy Ghost, be converted, and print it for free.

      God doesn't operate like men do - this is pure extortion - plus your "god" telling him to pretty much "lie for the lord."
      Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

        Here would have been a better way: the printer would embrace the truth of the Book of Mormon by the power of the Holy Ghost, be converted, and print it for free.

        God doesn't operate like men do - this is pure extortion - plus your "god" telling him to pretty much "lie for the lord."
        How would the printer have paid for his rent or food? Maybe a weíll to do faiathful man like...Martin? Your example is economically unworkable.

        Extortion? Thatís a pretty strong word, Martin had a long time to be bitter if he chose. He didnít choose that, he remained an adherent long after Smith died.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
          How would the printer have paid for his rent or food? Maybe a weíll to do faiathful man like...Martin? Your example is economically unworkable.

          Extortion? Thatís a pretty strong word, Martin had a long time to be bitter if he chose. He didnít choose that, he remained an adherent long after Smith died.
          God would have provided. Don't you believe in an omnipotent God - oh, no, that's right, the Mormon god was once a sinner growing up on another planet.

          Of course "extortion" is a strong word - and I apply it to the Mormon teaching that those who do not hand over their tithing will be burned at Christ's coming.

          Get out of that cult while you can.

          Read this, Lloyd, before the Mormons get anymore of your assets" https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/w...-interview-202
          Last edited by Catherine Aurelia; 05-16-18, 02:29 PM.
          Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
            Smith gave a whole bunch of revelations, and many were addressed to individuals. This particular one was addressed to the rather wealthy, Martin Harris, when Joe needed money to publish the Book of Mormon:
            Revelation, circa Summer 1829 [D&C 19]
            • Document Transcript
            CHAPTER XVI.
            1 A
            of God and not of man to you, , given ( , New-York, March, 1830,) by him who is eternal:
            YEA, even I, I am he, the beginning and the end: Yea, Alpha and Omega,
            Christ the Lord, the Redeemer of the world:
            2 I having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father:
            3 Having done this, that I might subdue all things unto myself:
            4 Retaining all power, even to the destroying of satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works, and the deeds which he hath done.

            5 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I God am endless:
            6 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth:
            7 Yea, to those who are found on my left hand,
            nevertheless, it is not written, that there shall be no end to this torment; but it is written endless torment.
            8 Again, it is written eternal damnation: wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it [p. 39] might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my nameís glory:
            9 Wherefore, I will explain unto you, this mystery, for it is mete unto you, to know even as mine apostles.
            10 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
            11 For behold, the mystery of Godliness how great is it? for behold I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand, is endless punishment, for endless is my name:
            12 Whereforeó
            Eternal punishment) Endless punishment
            is Godís punishment is Godís punishment:
            13 Wherefore, I command you by my name, and by my Almighty power, that you repent: repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore:
            14 How sore you know not!
            15 How exquisite you know not!
            16 Yea, how hard to bear you know not!
            17 For behold, I God have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer, if they would repent, but if they would not repent, they must suffer even as I:
            18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore,
            both body and spirit:
            19 And would that I might not drink the bitter cup and shrink:
            20 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men:
            21 Wherefore, I command you again by my Al [p. 40]mighty power, that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

            22 And I command you, that you preach nought but repentance; and show not these things, neither speak these things unto the world, for they can not bear meat, but milk they must receive:
            23 Wherefore, they must not know these things lest they perish:
            24 Wherefore, learn of me, and listen to my words; walk in the meekness of my Spirit and you shall have peace in me, Jesus Christ by the will of the Father.
            25 And again: I command you, that thou shalt not covet thy neighborís wife.

            26 Nor seek thy neighborís life.
            27 And again: I command you, that thou shalt not covet thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing of the book of Mormon which contains the truth and the word of God,
            which is my word to , that soon it may go to the Jew, of which they are a remnant; that they may believe the gospel, and look not for a Messiah to come which has already come.
            28 And again: I command you, that thou shalt pray vocally as well as to thyself:
            29 Yea, before the world as well as in secret; in public as well as in private.
            30 And thou shalt declare glad tidings; yea, publish it upon the mountains, and upon every high place, and among every people which thou shalt be permitted to see.

            31 And thou shalt do it with all humility, trusting in me, reviling not against revilers. [p. 41]
            32 And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior and remission of sins by
            and by fire; yea, even the Holy Ghost.

            33 Behold this is a great and the last
            which I shall give unto you:
            34 For this shall suffice for thy daily walk even unto the end of thy life.
            35 And misery thou shalt receive, if thou wilt slight these counsels; Yea, even destruction of thyself and property.
            36 Impart a portion of thy property; Yea, even a part of thy lands and all save the support of thy family.
            37 Pay the printerís debt.
            38 Release thyself from bondage.
            39 Leave thy house and home, except when thou shalt desire to see them.
            40 And speak freely to all: Yea, preach, exhort, declare the truth, even with a loud voice; with a sound of rejoicing, crying
            blessed be the name of the Lord God.
            41 Pray always and I will pour out my Spirit upon you, and great shall be your blessing:
            42 Yea, even more than if you should obtain treasures of earth, and corruptibleness to the extent thereof.
            43 Behold, canst thou read this without rejoicing, and lifting up thy heart for gladness; or canst thou run about longer as a blind guide;
            or canst thou be humble and meek and conduct thyself wisely before me:
            44 Yea, come unto me thy Savior. Amen. [p. 42]

            (The Joseph Smith Papers: http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/pap...ull-transcript )

            Some points I'd like to note.

            1. Martin Harris is particularly cautioned not to get into the deeper doctrines, but push the milk. Apparently he was spouting off to potential converts, and Mormon jesus got irritated. Apparently the excuse is this: if the potential converts would know the truth they would "perish." So much for honesty in the cult.

            2. Mormon jesus repeatedly claims to be GOD! This truth is underplayed now in today's Mormonism, where their "jesus" is just one of the kids, Satan's brother.

            3. Apparently Martin had roving eyes, which was confirmed by his wife.

            4. Martin is not to "covet" his own money - gee, what a shock. Hand it over to the cult!

            5. "Endless punishment" jiust means' God's punishment - stop talking about an eternal Hell where unbelievers are sent.

            6. Pay the debt Joe owed to the printer - or there will be consequences. Thus, he can release himself from bondage.

            7. He must repent since apparently he hasn't done so.

            My question is this, how can anybody in their right mind think this is a real revelation from Jesus? It's a self-serving form of extortion by Joseph Smith, playing the role of God, speaking as Mormon "jesus." And poor Martin is being used as a sucker, as are so many Mormons today.

            source of revelation: The Joseph Smith papers available on line.
            "You shall not covet thy neighbor's wife"....Smith didn't listen to the Mormon Jesus, did he? Or is this directive ONLY for Harris?
            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

              "You shall not covet thy neighbor's wife"....Smith didn't listen to the Mormon Jesus, did he? Or is this directive ONLY for Harris?
              Since Smith played the part of Jesus, I suppose he thought he was above any commandments.
              Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                Here would have been a better way: the printer would embrace the truth of the Book of Mormon by the power of the Holy Ghost, be converted, and print it for free.

                God doesn't operate like men do - this is pure extortion - plus your "god" telling him to pretty much "lie for the lord."
                So you would prefer that the printer shoulder the costs instead of Martin Harris? How is that better?

                Oh, but if the printer had been converted and become a Mormon...." Martin Harris was converted and became a Mormon.

                "But if the printer had been willing to do it for free...." The printer's labor or Harris's funds, they were exactly the same value though not necessarily to the individuals involved. The printer may well have been bankrupted by such an unremunerated expense while Harris was able to bear it.

                God doesn't operate like men....least of all men who come up with ridiculous ideas like the one above.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                  God would have provided. Don't you believe in an omnipotent God - oh, no, that's right, the Mormon god was once a sinner growing up on another planet.

                  Of course "extortion" is a strong word - and I apply it to the Mormon teaching that those who do not hand over their tithing will be burned at Christ's coming.

                  Get out of that cult while you can.

                  Read this, Lloyd, before the Mormons get anymore of your assets" https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/w...-interview-202
                  Right, God did provide, he provided Martin.

                  The printer had many miracles occur in order to get the Book published.

                  Tithing is much more than fire insurance.

                  God provided me with 100% of my income and everything I have, He created . I am happy to return 10% of the money He has blessed me with.



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
                    Right, God did provide, he provided Martin.

                    The printer had many miracles occur in order to get the Book published.

                    Tithing is much more than fire insurance.

                    God provided me with 100% of my income and everything I have, He created . I am happy to return 10% of the money He has blessed me with.


                    Lloyd, do your history. Martin Harris had, what Christians call, "a religous spirit." He hopped from group to group hoping for a "spiritual high." It's an addiction. He was a gullible guy, but shrewd as well, and thought he could make money off of selling the book he virtually owned:

                    Please read this: https://zelphontheshelf.com/8-things...martin-harris/

                    Harris was also excommunicated from your cult.

                    For those who are very lazy and won't read any links:
                    Mrs. Abigail Harris: a sister-in-law of Martin Harris:

                    "... Martin Harris and Lucy Harris, his wife, were at my house [early part of winter, 1828]. In conversation with the Mormonites, she [Lucy Harris] observed that she wished her husband would quit them, as she believed it all false and a delusion. To which I heard Mr. Harris reply: 'What if it is a lie; if you will let me alone I will make money out of it!' I was both an eye- and ear-witness of what has been above stated, which is now fresh in my memory, and I speak the truth and lie not, God being my witness."
                    Lucy Harris: wife of Martin Harris:
                    "Whether the Mormon religion be true or false, I leave the world to judge; for its effects on Martin Harris have been to make him more cross, turbulent and abusive to me. His whole object was to make money out of it. I will give a proof of this. One day at Peter Harris' house (Abigail Harris' husband) I told him he had better leave the company of the Smiths, as their religion was false. To this he replied, "If you would let me alone, I could make money out of it.' It is in vain for the Mormons to deny these facts, as they are well known to most of his former neighbors."

                    source: MormonThink

                    Some more:

                    False Witness #1: Martin Harris:
                    1. Was known for being very unstable religiously. Over his whole life he changed his affiliation over 13 times.
                    2. Martin Harris was first a Quaker, then a Universalist, next a Restorationist, then a Baptist, next a Presbyterian, and then a Mormon.(Mormonism Unveiled, E. D. Howe, 1834, pp. 260-261)
                    3. After Martin Harris' excommunication in 1837, he changed his religion eight more times, going from the Shakers to one Mormon splinter group to the next, and back to the main group in 1842.(Improvement Era, March 1969, p. 63 and Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 164, Brigham Young)
                    4. In 1846, (after his excommunication in 1837) Martin Harris was preaching among the Saints in England for the Apostate James J. Strang. (Church Chronology, Andrew Jensen, 1899, p. 31; Millennial Star, vol. 8, Nov. 15, 1846, pp. 124-128.)
                    5. He signed his name to a statement: "Testimony of three witnesses: We Cheerfully certify...The Lord has made it known to me that David Witmer is the man. David was then called forward, and Joseph and his counselors laid hands upon him, and ordained him to his station, to succeed him...He will be prophet, seer, Revelator and Translator before God." Signed Martin Harris, Leonard Rich, Calvin Beebe. Of course this never came to pass as Brigham young became Joseph Smith's successor.
                    6. The Mormons stated of Martin Harris and a few other men within the pages of the church's official newspaper at the time, "a lying deceptive spirit attend them...they are of their father, the devil...The very countenance of Harris will show to every spiritual-minded person who sees him, that the wrath of God is upon him." Latter-Day Saint's, Millennial Star, Vol 8 pp124-128.
                    7. Phineas Young wrote to his older brother Brigham Young on December 31, 1841, from Kirtland, Ohio: "There are in this place all kinds of teaching; Martin Harris is a firm believer in Shakerism, says his testimony is greater than it was for the Book of Mormon" (Martin Harris - Witness and Benefactor of the Book of Mormon, 1955, p. 52)
                    8. Martin Harris testified that his testimony for Shakerism was greater than it was for Mormonism. The Shaker's "Sacred Roll and Book" was also delivered by an angel. (Case Against Mormonism, Tanner, Vol. 2, pp. 50-58; Martin Harris-Witness & Benefactor, BYU 1955 Thesis, Wayne C. Gunnell, p.52.)
                    9. In the Elder's Journal for August, 1838, Joseph Smith denounces Martin Harris as "so far beneath contempt that to notice him would be too great a sacrifice for a gentleman to make. The Church exerted some restraint on him, but now he has given loose to all kinds of abominations, lying, cheating, swindling, and all kinds of debauchery."(Gleanings by the Way, J. A. Clark, pp. 256-257)
                    10. Like David Whitmer, Martin Harris later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates with "the eyes of faith and not with the natural eyes". This we believe is the truth but it should eliminate him automatically as a witness none the less. This of course proves Mormonism is a fraud and that the Nephi Plates never existed and no one actually saw them. (The Braden & Kelly Debate, p. 173)
                    source: Article: The Mormon Church -
                    The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints
                    The valueless testimony of the Book of Mormon Witnesses
                    http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm


                    It's so obvious, as plain as Smitty's proboscis, that Harris was addicted to spiritual highs, but tired of them quickly. Today, many of these types of people end up in Mental Health wards, speaking to the wall and claiming to be Jesus. Joe needed money to print the BoM, which he thought would get his own family out of debt. Joe Smith was a scammer, Lloyd, and would fit in well in Nigeria today - the confidence capital of the world. Harris was credulous, needed to keep feeding his quest for a spiritual high, and had the bucks to get Joe's book printed. Mormon "god" knew a sucker when he saw one.
                    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Regarding Harris, from Wikipedia: " In 1837, dissension arose in Kirtland over the failure of the church's Kirtland Safety Society bank. Harris called it a "fraud" and was among the dissenters who broke with Smith and attempted to reorganize the church. Led by Warren Parrish, the reformers excommunicated Smith and Rigdon, who relocated to Far West Missouri In December 1837, Smith and the Kirtland High Council excommunicated 28 individuals, Harris among them.

                      In 1838, Smith called the Three Witnesses Cowdery, Harris, and Whitmer "too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them." Parrish's church in Kirtland took control of the temple and became known as The Church of Christ. In its 1838 articles of incorporation, Harris was named one of the church's three trustees.

                      In 1838, Harris is said to have told "he never saw the plates with his natural eyes, only in vision or imagination."A neighbor of Harris in Kirtland, Ohio, said that Harris "never claimed to have seen [the plates] with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision."

                      In March 1838, disillusioned church members said that Harris had publicly denied that any of the Witnesses to the Book of Mormon had ever seen or handled the golden plates. Harris's statement reportedly induced five influential members, including three apostles, to leave the church."

                      Harris was most likely suffering from borderline personality disorder, and was an easy target for Joe (a narcissistic sociopath) as he delivered his "message" to Harris, speaking as the Mormon "god" and demanding money. Smith preyed on these kind of people - another problematic Mormon being Heber Kimball, who was mentally challenged, and shared with Harris a gullible nature.
                      Last edited by Catherine Aurelia; 05-17-18, 09:55 AM.
                      Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                        So you would prefer that the printer shoulder the costs instead of Martin Harris? How is that better?

                        Oh, but if the printer had been converted and become a Mormon...." Martin Harris was converted and became a Mormon.

                        "But if the printer had been willing to do it for free...." The printer's labor or Harris's funds, they were exactly the same value though not necessarily to the individuals involved. The printer may well have been bankrupted by such an unremunerated expense while Harris was able to bear it.

                        God doesn't operate like men....least of all men who come up with ridiculous ideas like the one above.
                        God doesn't operate like some shyster, either.
                        Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                          Lloyd, do your history. Martin Harris had, what Christians call, "a religous spirit." He hopped from group to group hoping for a "spiritual high." It's an addiction. He was a gullible guy, but shrewd as well, and thought he could make money off of selling the book he virtually owned:

                          Please read this: https://zelphontheshelf.com/8-things...martin-harris/

                          Harris was also excommunicated from your cult.

                          For those who are very lazy and won't read any links:
                          Mrs. Abigail Harris: a sister-in-law of Martin Harris:

                          "... Martin Harris and Lucy Harris, his wife, were at my house [early part of winter, 1828]. In conversation with the Mormonites, she [Lucy Harris] observed that she wished her husband would quit them, as she believed it all false and a delusion. To which I heard Mr. Harris reply: 'What if it is a lie; if you will let me alone I will make money out of it!' I was both an eye- and ear-witness of what has been above stated, which is now fresh in my memory, and I speak the truth and lie not, God being my witness."
                          Lucy Harris: wife of Martin Harris:
                          "Whether the Mormon religion be true or false, I leave the world to judge; for its effects on Martin Harris have been to make him more cross, turbulent and abusive to me. His whole object was to make money out of it. I will give a proof of this. One day at Peter Harris' house (Abigail Harris' husband) I told him he had better leave the company of the Smiths, as their religion was false. To this he replied, "If you would let me alone, I could make money out of it.' It is in vain for the Mormons to deny these facts, as they are well known to most of his former neighbors."

                          source: MormonThink

                          Some more:

                          False Witness #1: Martin Harris:
                          1. Was known for being very unstable religiously. Over his whole life he changed his affiliation over 13 times.
                          2. Martin Harris was first a Quaker, then a Universalist, next a Restorationist, then a Baptist, next a Presbyterian, and then a Mormon.(Mormonism Unveiled, E. D. Howe, 1834, pp. 260-261)
                          3. After Martin Harris' excommunication in 1837, he changed his religion eight more times, going from the Shakers to one Mormon splinter group to the next, and back to the main group in 1842.(Improvement Era, March 1969, p. 63 and Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 164, Brigham Young)
                          4. In 1846, (after his excommunication in 1837) Martin Harris was preaching among the Saints in England for the Apostate James J. Strang. (Church Chronology, Andrew Jensen, 1899, p. 31; Millennial Star, vol. 8, Nov. 15, 1846, pp. 124-128.)
                          5. He signed his name to a statement: "Testimony of three witnesses: We Cheerfully certify...The Lord has made it known to me that David Witmer is the man. David was then called forward, and Joseph and his counselors laid hands upon him, and ordained him to his station, to succeed him...He will be prophet, seer, Revelator and Translator before God." Signed Martin Harris, Leonard Rich, Calvin Beebe. Of course this never came to pass as Brigham young became Joseph Smith's successor.
                          6. The Mormons stated of Martin Harris and a few other men within the pages of the church's official newspaper at the time, "a lying deceptive spirit attend them...they are of their father, the devil...The very countenance of Harris will show to every spiritual-minded person who sees him, that the wrath of God is upon him." Latter-Day Saint's, Millennial Star, Vol 8 pp124-128.
                          7. Phineas Young wrote to his older brother Brigham Young on December 31, 1841, from Kirtland, Ohio: "There are in this place all kinds of teaching; Martin Harris is a firm believer in Shakerism, says his testimony is greater than it was for the Book of Mormon" (Martin Harris - Witness and Benefactor of the Book of Mormon, 1955, p. 52)
                          8. Martin Harris testified that his testimony for Shakerism was greater than it was for Mormonism. The Shaker's "Sacred Roll and Book" was also delivered by an angel. (Case Against Mormonism, Tanner, Vol. 2, pp. 50-58; Martin Harris-Witness & Benefactor, BYU 1955 Thesis, Wayne C. Gunnell, p.52.)
                          9. In the Elder's Journal for August, 1838, Joseph Smith denounces Martin Harris as "so far beneath contempt that to notice him would be too great a sacrifice for a gentleman to make. The Church exerted some restraint on him, but now he has given loose to all kinds of abominations, lying, cheating, swindling, and all kinds of debauchery."(Gleanings by the Way, J. A. Clark, pp. 256-257)
                          10. Like David Whitmer, Martin Harris later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates with "the eyes of faith and not with the natural eyes". This we believe is the truth but it should eliminate him automatically as a witness none the less. This of course proves Mormonism is a fraud and that the Nephi Plates never existed and no one actually saw them. (The Braden & Kelly Debate, p. 173)
                          source: Article: The Mormon Church -
                          The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints
                          The valueless testimony of the Book of Mormon Witnesses
                          http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm


                          It's so obvious, as plain as Smitty's proboscis, that Harris was addicted to spiritual highs, but tired of them quickly. Today, many of these types of people end up in Mental Health wards, speaking to the wall and claiming to be Jesus. Joe needed money to print the BoM, which he thought would get his own family out of debt. Joe Smith was a scammer, Lloyd, and would fit in well in Nigeria today - the confidence capital of the world. Harris was credulous, needed to keep feeding his quest for a spiritual high, and had the bucks to get Joe's book printed. Mormon "god" knew a sucker when he saw one.
                          You know that people on their death beds and in their dying days try and reconcile their lives and are honest. Here is what Martin did before he died.

                          Although absent from the LDS Church for a time, he returned to full fellowship and was baptized before dying in Clarkston. Upon his death, Martin was placed in his casket with a copy of the Book of Mormon in his right hand and a copy of the Doctrine & Covenants in the left to represent his role in financing the publication of the first editions of these two books of Latter-day Saint scripture.

                          The man came back, repented, shared his witness

                          of course mormon think has tried everything to hide this fact, of course they try and discredit Harris. Itís fun to create false narratives and quote bitter people like his ex wife. Thatís a really great source of objective research. Sheesh, if I want a character reference on religious financing in the 1800ís the last person Iíd consider is an ex.


                          This is quite the attack they feel they need to have on Harris. The only person whose word they donít believe is the actual man himself. He is not in record anywhere of denying his testimony.


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                            God doesn't operate like some shyster, either.
                            I agree, so God would not rob a man of his labor, He might prosper a farmer beyond the wealth of his neighbors and then require of that farmer some of the excess, say $5000, while promising him innumerable blessings in return. Yea, He might do that.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                              I agree, so God would not rob a man of his labor, He might prosper a farmer beyond the wealth of his neighbors and then require of that farmer some of the excess, say $5000, while promising him innumerable blessings in return. Yea, He might do that.
                              "Yea" he might do that? Is that in KJV English. Nope, Mormons who believe that neither know Who God is, or how He operates. It was a con the whole way. Go and study cults, and you'll see they are always ripping off gullible people like Harris - who Joey Smith finally said, "was too mean to mention." Which is it - Harris was an instrument of God, or a lying apostate?
                              Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                              Comment

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