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Did "Mormon-jesus" Visit the Other, Other Sheep?

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  • Did "Mormon-jesus" Visit the Other, Other Sheep?

    According to Third Nephi, chapter 16:

    Jesus supposedly speaking:

    Third NephiThe Book of Nephithe Son of Nephi, Who Was the Son of Helaman

    Chapter 16

    Jesus will visit others of the lost sheep of Israel—In the latter days the gospel will go to the Gentiles and then to the house of Israel—The Lord’s people will see eye to eye when He brings again Zion. About A.D. 34.

    1 And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.

    2 For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.

    3 But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them."

    In the previous chapter, Mormon-jesus says:

    Nephi 15:

    "16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:

    17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.

    19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.

    20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.

    21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.

    23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost."

    Okay, so you have that folks. Mormon-jesus tells the Nephites in America that he's going to depart and contact other other sheep, who are Jews and not Gentiles. These other other sheep are apparently Jews who are dispersed throughout various regions. Now, my question is this: Did these "other, other sheep" leave a written document, or engraved plates, about Jesus visiting them? Did Jesus also, when he visited these Jews, choose another set of 12 apostles for them? He did it in the Americas, why not in Russia or Australia? Are these the same "lost tribes" that Joseph Smith and other early Mormons believed were living some place in the northern most regions? The Igloo Jewish tribes?

    So, is there any proof at all that this journey of Mormon-jesus to contact Jews was ever undertaken outside of Jerusalem and the Americas, according to you Mormons?

    If the Mormon-jesus said that he wasn't going to be manifesting himself to the Gentiles but by the Holy Ghost, why did he supposedly manifest himself to THE GENTILE Joseph Smith in some secret grove in NY? Why was Moroni supposedly sent to the Gentile, Joseph Smith, of Scotch/Irish descent? Shouldn't Joey have communicated with Mormon god by the Holy Ghost. Regardless of the pathetic attempt by Mormons to identify Joseph Smith with the Hebrew tribe of Joseph, Smith was no Jew!!!! The Mormons are so big on genealogy, shouldn't they know that? I have Smiths in my own family line, and trust me there never was one who was a Jew. All of English descent. So, it would appear that the grove appearance of Mormon-jesus contradicts 3 Nephi.




    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

  • #2
    Well, all you expert Mormons out there, why can't you answer the question posed?
    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
      Well, all you expert Mormons out there, why can't you answer the question posed?
      Because I hadn’t read your post yet.

      Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
      According to Third Nephi, chapter 16:

      Jesus supposedly speaking:

      Third NephiThe Book of Nephithe Son of Nephi, Who Was the Son of Helaman

      Chapter 16


      Jesus will visit others of the lost sheep of Israel—In the latter days the gospel will go to the Gentiles and then to the house of Israel—The Lord’s people will see eye to eye when He brings again Zion. About A.D. 34.

      1 And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.

      2 For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.

      3 But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there may be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them."

      In the previous chapter, Mormon-jesus says:

      Nephi 15:

      "16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:

      17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

      18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.

      19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.

      20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.

      21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

      22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.

      23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost."


      Okay, so you have that folks. [...]jesus tells the Nephites in America that he's going to depart and contact other other sheep, who are Jews and not Gentiles. These other other sheep are apparently Jews who are dispersed throughout various regions. Now, my question is this: Did these "other, other sheep" leave a written document, or engraved plates, about Jesus visiting them? Did Jesus also, when he visited these Jews, choose another set of 12 apostles for them? He did it in the Americas, why not in Russia or Australia? Are these the same "lost tribes" that Joseph Smith and other early Mormons believed were living some place in the northern most regions? The Igloo Jewish tribes?

      So, is there any proof at all that this journey of [...]jesus to contact Jews was ever undertaken outside of Jerusalem and the Americas, according to you Mormons?

      If the Mormon-jesus said that he wasn't going to be manifesting himself to the Gentiles but by the Holy Ghost, why did he supposedly manifest himself to THE GENTILE Joseph Smith in some secret grove in NY? Why was Moroni supposedly sent to the Gentile, Joseph Smith, of Scotch/Irish descent? Shouldn't Joey have communicated with Mormon god by the Holy Ghost. Regardless of the pathetic attempt by Mormons to identify Joseph Smith with the Hebrew tribe of Joseph, Smith was no Jew!!!! The Mormons are so big on genealogy, shouldn't they know that? I have Smiths in my own family line, and trust me there never was one who was a Jew. All of English descent. So, it would appear that the grove appearance of Mormon-jesus contradicts 3 Nephi.
      Yes, we believe Jesus so when He says He’s going to visit other people’s then we believe He did.

      Did those other groups leave written records? It’s entirely possible though we don’t have them.

      Did Jesus ordain Apostles among those groups? Again, it’s possible. Without those written records that may or may not exist (or definitive word from Jesus) we don’t know.

      The only “proof” is in Jesus saying so. That’s usually enough for most Christians.

      Jesus said He would manifest Himself only through the Holy Ghost and that was the case for almost 2000 years. He also said that there would be a restoration of all things, ‘all things’ would include Him presenting Himself in the flesh, and that has also occurred.

      I commend you on a post EDITED PERSONAL COMMENTS


      [...] replaces inappropriate words.
      Last edited by Mod10; 06-10-18, 12:47 PM. Reason: Alert, warning, rule 12

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

        Because I hadn’t read your post yet.



        Yes, we believe Jesus so when He says He’s going to visit other people’s then we believe He did.

        Did those other groups leave written records? It’s entirely possible though we don’t have them.

        Did Jesus ordain Apostles among those groups? Again, it’s possible. Without those written records that may or may not exist (or definitive word from Jesus) we don’t know.

        The only “proof” is in Jesus saying so. That’s usually enough for most Christians.

        Jesus said He would manifest Himself only through the Holy Ghost and that was the case for almost 2000 years. He also said that there would be a restoration of all things, ‘all things’ would include Him presenting Himself in the flesh, and that has also occurred.

        I commend you on a post that hat is considerably less sarcastic or bombastic than usual and centered around actual Mormon beliefs.


        [...] replaces inappropriate words.
        Then why did Mormon-jesus mess up and appear to the Gentile, Joe Smith, when He specifically said he wouldn't appear to Gentiles (or did Joey the Liar forget that his version of jesus had said that?)

        Remember, folks, that in the chapter cited in the OP, the Mormon-jesus promised this:

        "3 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost."

        Only the most naive would not admit that Joey Smith was a Gentile.

        Sorry, LURKER, that I can't commend you for the same. Please try to respond without personal insults. Also, my post is not a "hat."
        Last edited by Catherine Aurelia; 06-10-18, 12:20 PM.
        Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
          Then why did Mormon-jesus mess up and appear to the Gentile, Joe Smith, when He specifically said he wouldn't appear to Gentiles (or did Joey the Liar forget that his version of jesus had said that?)

          Sorry, LURKER, that I can't commend you for the same. Please try to respond without personal insults.
          You are welcome to find insult and offense wherever you like. There were none in my post above.

          Jesus said He would not (appear in the flesh, but would only send the Holy Ghost) and He did not until such time as He said He would again and He did.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

            You are welcome to find insult and offense wherever you like. There were none in my post above.

            Au contraire, telling a person that they are not as nasty (sarcastic and bombastic) as they usually are is a big insult and YOU know it LURKER.

            Jesus said He would not (appear in the flesh, but would only send the Holy Ghost) and He did not until such time as He said He would again and He did.
            Is this why many early Mormons thought that Joseph Smith was the Holy Ghost in the flesh, and that Joey actually accommodated that belief?

            Nope there's no excuse. Joey said that Jesus appeared to him, and he was definitely a Gentile, all the bologna about him being of Joseph's tribe not withstanding. And all lthe spining of that verse not withstanding either. Words have meanings (other than in Mormonism?).

            Last edited by Mod10; 06-10-18, 02:37 PM. Reason: alert; no violation; stuff in red is poster's quotes, since she often pots in red.
            Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
              Is this why many early Mormons thought that Joseph Smith was the Holy Ghost in the flesh, and that Joey actually accommodated that belief?

              Nope there's no excuse. Joey said that Jesus appeared to him, and he was definitely a Gentile, all the bologna about him being of Joseph's tribe not withstanding. And all lthe spining of that verse not withstanding either. Words have meanings (other than in Mormonism?).
              I'm surprised this is a point of contention. All of Christendom accepts that Jesus meant that he would not be present in the flesh for a period of time but that that period would come to an end.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                Is this why many early Mormons thought that Joseph Smith was the Holy Ghost in the flesh, and that Joey actually accommodated that belief?
                Moved the goal posts did you? How does this have anything to do with "other sheep"?

                Nope there's no excuse. Joey said that Jesus appeared to him, and he was definitely a Gentile,
                What is ur evidence that Joseph was a gentile?
                the bologna about him being of Joseph's tribe not withstanding.
                not withstanding what?
                And all lthe spining of that verse not withstanding either. Words have meanings (other than in Mormonism?).
                And apparently other than in modern Christendom. Words di have meaning but our critics don't get to decide what they mean.
                "...for now is our salvation nearer to us than when we believed." Romans 13:11 -- What else must be done to move past belief? Faith is belief in action. It is works unto salvation.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                  I'm surprised this is a point of contention. All of Christendom accepts that Jesus meant that he would not be present in the flesh for a period of time but that that period would come to an end.
                  Christians believe that Jesus will return in His Resurrected and Glorified body at the Second Coming, to the Mount of Olives. Not to some punk kid who never went to church and who ripped off credulous farmers by crystal gazing in a grove in upstate New York. How can you dare to compare the pseudo-first vision of Smith (which I don't think ever occurred by the way, with the Second Coming of Christ. You don't really think you are tricking us with such a preposterous statement do you?
                  Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BrotherofJared View Post
                    Moved the goal posts did you? How does this have anything to do with "other sheep"?

                    What is ur evidence that Joseph was a gentile? not withstanding what?
                    And apparently other than in modern Christendom. Words di have meaning but our critics don't get to decide what they mean.
                    I didn't move any goal posts. Why would Mormon-jesus deny what he said in 3 Nephi and show up in Palmyra, NY, to an occultist kid who was, for all practical purposes, the town witch? Do you deny that Smith was a Gentile? Shouldn't Jesus have been communicating with his through the Holy Ghost as he states in 3 Nephi? It's your own Scriptures. Try to deal with the problem.

                    Please try and focus on the question asked instead of one something else.
                    Last edited by Catherine Aurelia; 06-10-18, 04:37 PM.
                    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
                      Christians believe that Jesus will return in His Resurrected and Glorified body at the Second Coming, to the Mount of Olives. Not to some punk kid who never went to church and who ripped off credulous farmers by crystal gazing in a grove in upstate New York. How can you dare to compare the pseudo-first vision of Smith (which I don't think ever occurred by the way, with the Second Coming of Christ. You don't really think you are tricking us with such a preposterous statement do you?
                      Samuel was a “punk kid who never went to church”. You do believe the Lord spoke to Samuel, yes?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        EDITED

                        Actually the Jesus of Traditional Christianity can be found in The Bible and The Book of Mormon, while the Mormon Christ is missing in both books
                        Last edited by Mod10; 06-11-18, 08:14 AM.
                        And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you ... ye shall curse them; And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies (Doctrine and Covenants, 103:24-25)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ivanhoe View Post

                          Actually the Jesus of Traditional Christianity can be found in The Bible and The Book of Mormon, while the Mormon Christ is missing in both books
                          No, you’re incredibly wrong. The trinitarian version of Jesus is NOT found in the Bible. It is found in the Hellenization of Christianity, the sophistry of the Greeks mixed with Christian tradition.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                            Samuel was a “punk kid who never went to church”. You do believe the Lord spoke to Samuel, yes?
                            Samuel lived in the temple. Try reading your Bible. He didn't practice fraud on his neighbors or crystal ball gaze.
                            Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                              No, you’re incredibly wrong. The trinitarian version of Jesus is NOT found in the Bible. It is found in the Hellenization of Christianity, the sophistry of the Greeks mixed with Christian tradition.
                              Normally I would take the time to refute your statement, but I'm at the point where your claims are obviously based on personal opinion and not any Biblical exegesis, so refutation is a wasted effort. If you want to debate the Trinity, go to a theology forum.

                              Since you once told us a modalist model (Jesus ONLY) for the godhead was Christian, I cannot see your opinion as being of any value here until you understand the doctrine of the Trinity. And by the way, the Book of Mormon teaches Modalism. Deal with that.
                              Last edited by Catherine Aurelia; 06-11-18, 08:34 AM.
                              Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                              Comment

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