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Joseph Smith and the Priesthood Ban.

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  • Joseph Smith and the Priesthood Ban.

    I started 4 other posts in regards to the Priesthood Ban...discussing different aspects of the Ban. This thread is intended to explore the roots of the Ban, and Joseph Smith's view on Blacks, Slavery, segregation, Cain...and some of his other views on Black's.

    I am going to start with this exchange by Joseph in 1833. Here it is clear his view is that "people of color" should not be admitted to membership in the church.

    "THE EVENING AND MORNING STAR" EXTRA.

    July 16, 1833. Having learned with extreme regret, that an article entitled, "Free People of Color," in the last number of the Star, has been misunderstood, we feel in duty bound to state, in this Extra, that our intention was not only to stop free people of color from emigrating to this state, but to prevent them from being admitted as members of the Church.

    Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Location 6172).

    Joseph also went on to say...

    We often lament the situation of our sister states in the south, and we fear, lest, as has been the case, the blacks should rise and spill innocent blood, for they are ignorant, and a little may lead them to disturb the peace of society. To be short, we are opposed to having free people of color admitted into the state; and we say, that none will be admitted into the Church; for we are determined to obey the laws and constitutions of our country, that we may have that protection which the sons of liberty inherit from the legacy of Washington, through the favorable auspices of a Jefferson and Jackson.

    Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 6175-6179).


    I found this while reading the History of the Church...which makes it clear he believed that "negroes" were the sons of Cain...to support this view he quotes "The Prophecy of Enoch" later The Book of Moses in the PoGp...he understood them as having Black skin and cursed.

    Tuesday, 25.—Signed deeds for lots, to Law; transacted a variety of business in the city and office. In the evening debated with John C.Bennett and others to show that the Indians have greater cause to complain of the treatment of the whites, than the negroes, or sons of Cain.

    Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 33637-33639).

    Extracts from the Prophecy of Enoch. (PoGP Book of Moses 7:22)

    8. For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

    Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 2883-2884).

    22. And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam, save itwere the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.

    Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 2903-2904).

    We know also he fined Black men for attempting to marry white women...

    Thursday, 8.—Held Mayor's court, and tried two negroes for attempting to marry white women: fined one $25, and the other $5.

    Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Location 48338).

    We also knew as a candidate for president he felt that the Black slaves were held down...he would "strictly" segregate them and put them on welfare.

    At five went to Mr. Sollars' with Elders Hyde and Richards. Elder Hyde inquired the situation of the negro. I replied, they came into the world slave tally and physically. Change their situation with the whites,and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washington are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine of many of those they brush and wait on. Elder Hyde remarked, "Put them on the level, and they will rise above me." I replied, if I raised you to be my equal, and then attempted to oppress you, would you not be indignant and try to rise above me, as did Oliver Cowdery, Peter Whitmer, and many others, who said I was a fallen Prophet, and they were capable of leading the people, although I never attempted to oppress them, but had always been lifting them up? Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization.

    Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 58558-58566).

    More coming



    But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

  • #2
    I think you had a thread on here where you had various quotes from former LDS leaders, like Young where they called the ban "doctrine." I cannot find it now. You actually bolded "doctrine, if I remember right. Do you remember what thread it was under? I would like to bookmark that post. Thanks.
    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
    "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
    "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
      I think you had a thread on here where you had various quotes from former LDS leaders, like Young where they called the ban "doctrine." I cannot find it now. You actually bolded "doctrine, if I remember right. Do you remember what thread it was under? I would like to bookmark that post. Thanks.
      I think it was the first one... I see if i can find it.

      {ed**** Post 91 https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...ith-them/page3
      Last edited by Markk; 06-10-18, 02:52 PM.
      But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Markk View Post

        I think it was the first one... I see if i can find it.

        {ed**** Post 91 https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...ith-them/page3
        Yes, that is the one--thanks Did you see what further information I gave you about working your PM box?
        "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
        "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
        "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
        "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
        "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

          Yes, that is the one--thanks Did you see what further information I gave you about working your PM box?
          no? where? I tried again to get it working and i no longer have a PM box...at least that i can find.
          But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Markk View Post

            I think it was the first one... I see if i can find it.

            {ed**** Post 91 https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...ith-them/page3
            I think that is the one, but it seems to me you had another post with more quotes, with 'doctrine' bolded, more stuff by Young...but maybe it was someone else. thanks.
            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

            Comment


            • #7
              Speaking in favor of slavery, and against a few Abolitionists, who visited Kirtland...Joseph Smith wrote the below in the LDS news paper Messenger and Advocate.

              "...After having expressed myself so freely upon this subject, I do not doubt, but those who have been forward in raising their voices against the South, will cry out against me as being uncharitable, unfeeling, unkind,and wholly unacquainted with the Gospel of Christ. It is my privilege then to name certain passages from the Bible, and examine the teachings of the ancients upon the matter as the fact is incontrovertible that the first mention we have of slavery is found in the Holy Bible, pronounced by a man who was perfect in his generation, and walked with God. And so far from that prediction being averse to the mind of God, it remains as a lasting monument of the decree of Jehovah, to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in servitude. "And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren." "Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant" (Gen. ix: 25, 26). ..."

              Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 23485-23486).

              This is important in that it shows he believed that the Blacks were from the line of Ham and by defualt Cain. It also shows he was for slavery, at least at this time. This was written in 1836, well before his presidential aspirations. Joseph did reverse his stance on slavery later, but never that Blacks we curse through Ham.



              But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Markk View Post
                Speaking in favor of slavery, and against a few Abolitionists, who visited Kirtland...Joseph Smith wrote the below in the LDS news paper Messenger and Advocate.

                "...After having expressed myself so freely upon this subject, I do not doubt, but those who have been forward in raising their voices against the South, will cry out against me as being uncharitable, unfeeling, unkind,and wholly unacquainted with the Gospel of Christ. It is my privilege then to name certain passages from the Bible, and examine the teachings of the ancients upon the matter as the fact is incontrovertible that the first mention we have of slavery is found in the Holy Bible, pronounced by a man who was perfect in his generation, and walked with God. And so far from that prediction being averse to the mind of God, it remains as a lasting monument of the decree of Jehovah, to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in servitude. "And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren." "Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant" (Gen. ix: 25, 26). ..."

                Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 23485-23486).

                This is important in that it shows he believed that the Blacks were from the line of Ham and by defualt Cain. It also shows he was for slavery, at least at this time. This was written in 1836, well before his presidential aspirations. Joseph did reverse his stance on slavery later, but never that Blacks we curse through Ham.


                You would begrudge JS of having a opinion .... Chuckle
                A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ralf View Post

                  You would begrudge JS of having a opinion .... Chuckle
                  You have to focus on what is going on with the threads I have started. They all show a different aspect of the PH Ban as I go through a study on it. My next thread will be on other LDS GA, like John Taylor who taught on this.

                  In this thread, so far, ...it shows that the idea that Black people were cursed and from Ham's line was a belief of Joseph Smiths in 1838, and not just a later teaching of BY. It also shows Smith's early support for slavery, and his dislike for abolitionists.

                  So far you are mix up and stating the past GA made a mistake in their teachings, and at other times you state it is all from God.

                  Another argument of yours is that you are saying that becasue one apostle corrected another apostle in the Bible. it is some how the same as 150 years of LDS prophets and apostles doing wrong and never being able to correct each other so God had to come in a correct them? You are simply all over the place.

                  Chuckle all you like, but these are good and interesting questions that you might want to pay attention to if you want to get past your standard talking points and actually attempt to understand LDS History, doctrine, and scripture, and the questions that are presented here.




                  But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Markk View Post
                    I started 4 other posts in regards to the Priesthood Ban...discussing different aspects of the Ban. This thread is intended to explore the roots of the Ban, and Joseph Smith's view on Blacks, Slavery, segregation, Cain...and some of his other views on Black's.

                    I am going to start with this exchange by Joseph in 1833. Here it is clear his view is that "people of color" should not be admitted to membership in the church.

                    "THE EVENING AND MORNING STAR" EXTRA.

                    July 16, 1833. Having learned with extreme regret, that an article entitled, "Free People of Color," in the last number of the Star, has been misunderstood, we feel in duty bound to state, in this Extra, that our intention was not only to stop free people of color from emigrating to this state, but to prevent them from being admitted as members of the Church.

                    Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Location 6172).
                    The whole of your observations will be in question as this article was written by W.W. Phelps in reaction to being alerted that his previous article invoked mob action. It was written under duress but did not save the press or his house.

                    Joseph also went on to say...

                    We often lament the situation of our sister states in the south, and we fear, lest, as has been the case, the blacks should rise and spill innocent blood, for they are ignorant, and a little may lead them to disturb the peace of society. To be short, we are opposed to having free people of color admitted into the state; and we say, that none will be admitted into the Church; for we are determined to obey the laws and constitutions of our country, that we may have that protection which the sons of liberty inherit from the legacy of Washington, through the favorable auspices of a Jefferson and Jackson.

                    Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 6175-6179).
                    Joseph didn't go on to say any such thing.

                    I found this while reading the History of the Church...which makes it clear he believed that "negroes" were the sons of Cain...to support this view he quotes "The Prophecy of Enoch" later The Book of Moses in the PoGp...he understood them as having Black skin and cursed.

                    Tuesday, 25.—Signed deeds for lots, to Law; transacted a variety of business in the city and office. In the evening debated with John C.Bennett and others to show that the Indians have greater cause to complain of the treatment of the whites, than the negroes, or sons of Cain.

                    Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 33637-33639).
                    As stated before, they may be the sons of Cain. What has that got to do with anything. The statement he made is true. The Indians do have greater cause to complain. This place was their home. But it was his debate, so I'm not going to add any more reasons for the correctness of his statement.

                    Extracts from the Prophecy of Enoch. (PoGP Book of Moses 7:22)

                    8. For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

                    Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 2883-2884).
                    This much appears to be true, or haven't you noticed.

                    22. And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam, save itwere the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.

                    Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 2903-2904).
                    And? What's your problem with this one? Cain was ostracized. His descendants too. They may very well have been black.

                    We know also he fined Black men for attempting to marry white women...

                    Thursday, 8.—Held Mayor's court, and tried two negroes for attempting to marry white women: fined one $25, and the other $5.

                    Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Location 48338).
                    It was against the law in those days. It had nothing to do with Joseph's personal views. Keep digging. Let's see if you can come up with
                    Joseph's stand on slavery for his presidential campaign platform...

                    We also knew as a candidate for president he felt that the Black slaves were held down...he would "strictly" segregate them and put them on welfare.

                    At five went to Mr. Sollars' with Elders Hyde and Richards. Elder Hyde inquired the situation of the negro. I replied, they came into the world slave tally and physically. Change their situation with the whites,and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washington are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine of many of those they brush and wait on. Elder Hyde remarked, "Put them on the level, and they will rise above me." I replied, if I raised you to be my equal, and then attempted to oppress you, would you not be indignant and try to rise above me, as did Oliver Cowdery, Peter Whitmer, and many others, who said I was a fallen Prophet, and they were capable of leading the people, although I never attempted to oppress them, but had always been lifting them up? Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization.

                    Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 58558-58566).
                    Heh. We can see from the bold that you clearly pass over everything that contradicts your animus to focus one one line that seems aberrant to you. In my reading, I see the portion highlighted in green. Actually, all the rest of it is a contradiction to your stated purpose. He already stated what national equalization meant by the statement I placed in green. Clearly, Joseph was opposed to slavery. Clearly, he saw no reason to restrict the priesthood from blacks. Your just barking at the moon.

                    "...for now is our salvation nearer to us than when we believed." Romans 13:11 -- What else must be done to move past belief? Faith is belief in action. It is works unto salvation.

                    Comment


                    • #11


                      Markk;n5321521]

                      You have to focus on what is going on with the threads I have started. They all show a different aspect of the PH Ban as I go through a study on it. My next thread will be on other LDS GA, like John Taylor who taught on this.

                      I also have taught out of the box personal opinions and thinkings I have imagined or deeply thought about... but never taught it in Church where I only teach approved official doctrine... that way I’m safe and Im not going against doctrine I fully agree with.... the Church in its early stages were filled by men who came with already preconceived ideas and and learnings of their own.... Peter also was living in a time of the Mosaic Law and the knowledge that the House of Israel were the chosen people... Peter sinned and Paul corrected him... they of course believed in the doctrine of Christ but were acting as hypocrites by not practicing it.... we may have had the same problem with our new Apostles and even our Prophet JS.... over time and up to today all these issue are now resolved... time to move on and learn from the past but never repeat past mistakes or past preconceptions... Its the same with people living now.. in a age of diversity yet a knowledge that our past was full of racism ... are we even today still having to apologize for past mistakes make by our ancestors... I don’t think so as long as we personally rid ourself of racial discrimination... many today still feel a sense of guilt... I don’t and I expect all races to move forward and to forget the past mistakes ..... same with church members.... we don’t live in the past and for me I see nothing but a cup half full of water and still being added to... the cup will eventually runneth over .... get my drift Markk...


                      In this thread, so far, ...it shows that the idea that Black people were cursed and from Ham's line was a belief of Joseph Smiths in 1838, and not just a later teaching of BY. It also shows Smith's early support for slavery, and his dislike for abolitionists.

                      "IT SHOWS THE IDEA"... a thought or suggestion as to a possible course of action....thank you Markk... at least you did not use the tag of doctrine....




                      So far you are mix(ing) up and stating the past GA made a mistake in their teachings, and at other times you state it is all from God.

                      And yes... a mistake was possible and yes they brought with them their own personal opinions and racism... or just maybe God has good reasons He never revealed the why... I made a personal out of the box opinion of that already... the growth of the church at this time would have been stunted since so many were of a racist mind living in that generation...God may have chosen a better time and place for the Priesthood to be given to the Blacks... but I don’t claim to know for sure... I just sometimes like to think out side of the box....




                      Another argument of yours is that you are saying that becasue one apostle corrected another apostle in the Bible. it is some how the same as 150 years of LDS prophets and apostles doing wrong and never being able to correct each other so God had to come in a correct them? You are simply all over the place.

                      Yes.. men are the same today as yesterday.... Keys of the Kingdom do not necessarily mean a chosen disciple of God is always going to be of like mind and heart... but if they harden their hearts unlike Peter who eventually repented and saw and knew that Paul was right ...if they continue to harden their heart like you have.. then there will be no change and a coming together of mind and heart.... today our GA’s and Prophets are still striving to understand and be led by the Light of Christ... change is always good, as we have come to see in out latest change... ministering in a new and better way..... no more being asked or shamed into doing our Home Teaching or Visiting teaching as some might have felt... we are preparing for the second coming of Christ and we must take on the responsibility to make sure our own lamps are filled with oil... its called being pro-active and and not being forced to do anything other then come unto Christ fully and independently...




                      Chuckle all you like, but these are good and interesting questions that you might want to pay attention to if you want to get past your standard talking points and actually attempt to understand LDS History, doctrine, and scripture, and the questions that are presented here.



                      More condescending remakes Markk... noted and dismissed....
                      Last edited by Ralf; 06-11-18, 07:40 AM.
                      A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ralf wrote...I also have taught out of the box personal opinions and thinkings I have imagined or deeply thought about... but never taught it in Church where I only teach approved official doctrine... that way I’m safe and Im not going against doctrine I fully agree with.... the Church in its early stages were filled by men who came with already preconceived ideas and and learnings of their own.... Peter also was living in a time of the Mosaic Law and the knowledge that the House of Israel were the chosen people... Peter sinned and Paul corrected him... they of course believed in the doctrine of Christ but were acting as hypocrites by not practicing it.... we may have had the same problem with our new Apostles and even our Prophet JS.... over time and up to today all these issue are now resolved... time to move on and learn from the past but never repeat past mistakes or past preconceptions... Its the same with people living now.. in a age of diversity yet a knowledge that our past was full of racism ... are we even today still having to apologize for past mistakes make by our ancestors... I don’t think so as long as we personally rid ourself of racial discrimination... many today still feel a sense of guilt... I don’t and I expect all races to move forward and to forget the past mistakes ..... same with church members.... we don’t live in the past and for me I see nothing but a cup half full of water and still being added to... the cup will eventually runneth over .... get my drift Markk...
                        In order to move on, learn, and never repeat mistakes you have to first acknowledge and repent of the sin...which the church has not done and was the first point of my threads. The Southern Baptist had a long history of Bigotry...and the repented and admitted it formally and publicly so they could move on...the LDS church has not. Did you repent of your racist past ralf?

                        In this thread, so far, ...it shows that the idea that Black people were cursed and from Ham's line was a belief of Joseph Smiths in 1838, and not just a later teaching of BY. It also shows Smith's early support for slavery, and his dislike for abolitionists.

                        "IT SHOWS THE IDEA"... a thought or suggestion as to a possible course of action....thank you Markk... at least you did not use the tag of doctrine....
                        Focus...the context is that it began with Joseph Smith...this is discussing his early statements which are all over the place. please try to understand the different issues on the overall subject.

                        So far you are mix(ing) up and stating the past GA made a mistake in their teachings, and at other times you state it is all from God.

                        And yes... a mistake was possible and yes they brought with them their own personal opinions and racism... or just maybe God has good reasons He never revealed the why... I made a personal out of the box opinion of that already... the growth of the church at this time would have been stunted since so many were of a racist mind living in that generation...God may have chosen a better time and place for the Priesthood to be given to the Blacks... but I don’t claim to know for sure... I just sometimes like to think out side of the box....
                        So was it a mistake, or was it from God...I guess you just don't know? The GA has said the GA were wrong in theory, but that the Ban was from God.

                        I will just accept your don't know, BoJ, like the GA say it is from God, and Lloyd believe it was just racism, and not from God. Is that fair?

                        Your are not thinking outside the box...your position is well with in the box given the silence by the GA.





                        But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yes.. men are the same today as yesterday.... Keys of the Kingdom do not necessarily mean a chosen disciple of God is always going to be of like mind and heart... but if they harden their hearts unlike Peter who eventually repented and saw and knew that Paul was right ...if they continue to harden their heart like you have.. then there will be no change and a coming together of mind and heart.... today our GA’s and Prophets are still striving to understand and be led by the Light of Christ... change is always good, as we have come to see in out latest change... ministering in a new and better way..... no more being asked or shamed into doing our Home Teaching or Visiting teaching as some might have felt... we are preparing for the second coming of Christ and we must take on the responsibility to make sure our own lamps are filled with oil... its called being pro-active and and not being forced to do anything other then come unto Christ fully and independently...
                          Well, so are you back to saying that it was a tragic mistake by scores of GA for 150 years?

                          No more being shamed into doing Home teaching? wow...I have been talking about the guilt the church puts on folks since I have been here...I am glad the church is starting to get it in your mind...that statement deserves a thread on it's own. what other areas of shame do you see...not allowing parents to attend a wedding if not worthy? Tithing? this is another example of the church becoming more "main stream."

                          Have any ideas?
                          But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Markk View Post
                            I started 4 other posts in regards to the Priesthood Ban...discussing different aspects of the Ban. This thread is intended to explore the roots of the Ban, and Joseph Smith's view on Blacks, Slavery, segregation, Cain...and some of his other views on Black's.

                            I am going to start with this exchange by Joseph in 1833. Here it is clear his view is that "people of color" should not be admitted to membership in the church.

                            "THE EVENING AND MORNING STAR" EXTRA.

                            July 16, 1833. Having learned with extreme regret, that an article entitled, "Free People of Color," in the last number of the Star, has been misunderstood, we feel in duty bound to state, in this Extra, that our intention was not only to stop free people of color from emigrating to this state, but to prevent them from being admitted as members of the Church.

                            Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Location 6172).

                            Joseph also went on to say...

                            We often lament the situation of our sister states in the south, and we fear, lest, as has been the case, the blacks should rise and spill innocent blood, for they are ignorant, and a little may lead them to disturb the peace of society. To be short, we are opposed to having free people of color admitted into the state; and we say, that none will be admitted into the Church; for we are determined to obey the laws and constitutions of our country, that we may have that protection which the sons of liberty inherit from the legacy of Washington, through the favorable auspices of a Jefferson and Jackson.

                            Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 6175-6179).


                            I found this while reading the History of the Church...which makes it clear he believed that "negroes" were the sons of Cain...to support this view he quotes "The Prophecy of Enoch" later The Book of Moses in the PoGp...he understood them as having Black skin and cursed.

                            Tuesday, 25.—Signed deeds for lots, to Law; transacted a variety of business in the city and office. In the evening debated with John C.Bennett and others to show that the Indians have greater cause to complain of the treatment of the whites, than the negroes, or sons of Cain.

                            Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 33637-33639).

                            Extracts from the Prophecy of Enoch. (PoGP Book of Moses 7:22)

                            8. For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

                            Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 2883-2884).

                            22. And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam, save itwere the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.

                            Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 2903-2904).

                            We know also he fined Black men for attempting to marry white women...

                            Thursday, 8.—Held Mayor's court, and tried two negroes for attempting to marry white women: fined one $25, and the other $5.

                            Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Location 48338).

                            We also knew as a candidate for president he felt that the Black slaves were held down...he would "strictly" segregate them and put them on welfare.

                            At five went to Mr. Sollars' with Elders Hyde and Richards. Elder Hyde inquired the situation of the negro. I replied, they came into the world slave tally and physically. Change their situation with the whites,and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washington are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine of many of those they brush and wait on. Elder Hyde remarked, "Put them on the level, and they will rise above me." I replied, if I raised you to be my equal, and then attempted to oppress you, would you not be indignant and try to rise above me, as did Oliver Cowdery, Peter Whitmer, and many others, who said I was a fallen Prophet, and they were capable of leading the people, although I never attempted to oppress them, but had always been lifting them up? Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization.

                            Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 58558-58566).

                            More coming


                            As usual you read meaning into what people say to serve an agenda of antimormon misrepresentation . None of what you cited says that Joseph Smith thought that black skinned people are the son's of Cain.
                            “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” -- George Carlin

                            We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideals of Christianity, our movement is Christian. - Adolf Hitler

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Markk View Post
                              Speaking in favor of slavery, and against a few Abolitionists, who visited Kirtland...Joseph Smith wrote the below in the LDS news paper Messenger and Advocate.

                              "...After having expressed myself so freely upon this subject, I do not doubt, but those who have been forward in raising their voices against the South, will cry out against me as being uncharitable, unfeeling, unkind,and wholly unacquainted with the Gospel of Christ. It is my privilege then to name certain passages from the Bible, and examine the teachings of the ancients upon the matter as the fact is incontrovertible that the first mention we have of slavery is found in the Holy Bible, pronounced by a man who was perfect in his generation, and walked with God. And so far from that prediction being averse to the mind of God, it remains as a lasting monument of the decree of Jehovah, to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in servitude. "And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren." "Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant" (Gen. ix: 25, 26). ..."

                              Joseph Smith, B. H. Roberts. History of the Church (HC) Volumes 1 - 7 (original 1902 edition), PDF (Kindle Locations 23485-23486).

                              This is important in that it shows he believed that the Blacks were from the line of Ham and by defualt Cain. It also shows he was for slavery, at least at this time. This was written in 1836, well before his presidential aspirations. Joseph did reverse his stance on slavery later, but never that Blacks we curse through Ham.
                              It is important as it shows a connection which seems to be accurate since we can find no other race that has been so oppressed in all of our known history. If one states that a kettle in the fire causes it to blacken over time, one can easily tell if a pot has been in the fire if it is blackened. The evidence of what was can be determined from what can be seen. It's not proof. It is evidence. You are incorrect about Joseph's reversal. This letter along all the rest of your quotes doesn't support that Joseph was for slavery. This letter, if it was complete, would indicate that he objected to slavery and that he hoped that there could be an amicable means of ending it by asking Southerners what solution would satisfy them to release their slaves. Of course, that was naive of him to consider, but he was hoping to avoid a Civil war which he had already prophesied. He relied on that prophecy and was taking action to avoid it, but I doubt there was anything he could have done about it even if he had been elected President. As you may recall, before the Civil war, the government was completely different than it is now. The Federal government had no power. States ruled. The Federal government could not enforce the Constitution.

                              So far, you have only shown what most American believed in the early 1800s. Joseph was seeking a solution and apparently didn't concur that blacks should be barred from the priesthood.

                              It seems obvious that God didn't choose to reveal to Joseph the whole plan. Likewise, he still hasn't revealed his whole plan to anyone else. We assume and trust that God knows what he's doing. Through all of that, the church as grown while false religions are falling apart at the seams.
                              "...for now is our salvation nearer to us than when we believed." Romans 13:11 -- What else must be done to move past belief? Faith is belief in action. It is works unto salvation.

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