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It’s ok to disagree with a prophet...JFS

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  • Originally posted by oceancoast View Post
    He told you Mark, since he was 12..


    Moving goal posts again .. The issue wasn't about becoming 'Gods'. It was whether or not it was necessary for Salvation. Salvation in the common sense that our faiths share is 'Salvation from our sins' which comes through Christs' atonement. Little children cannot sin.. The scriptures are clear baptism is not necessary for them. Marriage is also not necessary for salvation from our sins either Mark. If at some point in the here-after baptism is necessary for them, I'm confident our Heavenly Father will provide the means.. but until then whether or not it's remains an exception is not pertinent to our salvation and not our concern.. Since neither you or I are younger than 8 years old.
    LOL...then I guess you think that they only teach what baptism is at 8 and those that teach it forget about it after they teach it. My point was if you are a Mormon, and you do not understand the basic premise of what baptis

    It is about eternal life and exaltation...and the requirements...The child that dies on earth does not automatically become a God, he would have to qualify the same way anyone else does. That includes baptism, marriage, and confirmation among other things. Others will say it is not necessary. They all contradict each other in that is what happens when people just make stuff up, and that is why it is a mess.








    But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Markk View Post

      How long have you been LDS? You don’t understand that baptism is essential to being born again in LDS theology? We learned that at 8 years old ralf.

      Do you believe Children that die before 8 automatically become Gods without the basic requirements that every other member has to follow, include marriage in a temple?
      So you were taught that being born again cannot happen unless you were baptized... right?
      A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

      Comment


      • Originally posted by quetzloc View Post

        Actually I thought the issue was baptism allowed at 8, unless you are the child of a gay couple, where then the church withholds baptism until you are 18, thus purposefully blocking one from a critical component to salvation.
        Not really.... God knows the heart and mind of all.... the opportunity to find salvation is never that far away.... you love the word blocking (obstruction) and we would prefer the word delay or put off...
        A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Markk View Post

          LOL...then I guess you think that they only teach what baptism is at 8 and those that teach it forget about it after they teach it. My point was if you are a Mormon, and you do not understand the basic premise of what baptis

          It is about eternal life and exaltation...and the requirements...The child that dies on earth does not automatically become a God, he would have to qualify the same way anyone else does. That includes baptism, marriage, and confirmation among other things. Others will say it is not necessary. They all contradict each other in that is what happens when people just make stuff up, and that is why it is a mess.







          Well at least they won’t have to earn it ... chuckle... or perform works... or as you claim, by merit... or endure to the end as we do.... why worry Markk, God has a plan and it fits every single detail that you obsess over and consumes you ....
          A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Ralf View Post

            So you were taught that being born again cannot happen unless you were baptized... right?
            I was taught that there are two deaths, the first from adam's transgression, and that the atonement covers everyone no matter what, it is forced on all.

            The second death is a separation from God forever by "personal sins." When one is baptized and confirmed, they are born again and then through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel they "may" me saved.


            John 3:5&7

            Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (Baptism) and of the Spirit (confirmation), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God...
            Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

            This is what I was taught ralf...but I have shown you this many times before and you did not get it...so please tell what you were taught.


            But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Markk View Post

              LOL...then I guess you think that they only teach what baptism is at 8 and those that teach it forget about it after they teach it.
              I didn't suggest that at all, even remotely.. so once again you are wrong

              My point was if you are a Mormon, and you do not understand the basic premise of what baptis
              You point is an incomplete sentence..

              It is about eternal life and exaltation...and the requirements...The child that dies on earth does not automatically become a God, he would have to qualify the same way anyone else does. That includes baptism, marriage, and confirmation among other things. Others will say it is not necessary. They all contradict each other in that is what happens when people just make stuff up, and that is why it is a mess.
              But exaltation wasn't the original point.. so the only MESS is in your imagination.

              “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” -- George Carlin

              We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideals of Christianity, our movement is Christian. - Adolf Hitler

              Comment


              • Originally posted by quetzloc View Post

                Actually I thought the issue was baptism allowed at 8, unless you are the child of a gay couple, where then the church withholds baptism until you are 18, thus purposefully blocking one from a critical component to salvation.
                No, it's not blocking anything at all.. and if you read D&C 137.. Baptism is not absolutely necessary for everyone.. if there are circumstance beyond the individuals control, God judges by the heart. So the delay until the person is of legal age to decide for themselves is not Blocking anyone.
                “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” -- George Carlin

                We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideals of Christianity, our movement is Christian. - Adolf Hitler

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oceancoast View Post
                  I didn't suggest that at all, even remotely.. so once again you are wrong

                  You point is an incomplete sentence..

                  Then what did you mean...you were just pointing that out to me...thanks! Big Gulps!

                  I pad...

                  My point was if you are a Mormon, and you do not understand the basic premise of what baptism is, then maybe something is wrong.
                  But exaltation wasn't the original point.. so the only MESS is in your imagination.
                  It is important to my argument and damages yours. Exaltation is true salvation to the saint...whether you accept that teaching of not.
                  But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Markk View Post

                    Then what did you mean...you were just pointing that out to me...thanks! Big Gulps!

                    I pad...

                    My point was if you are a Mormon, and you do not understand the basic premise of what baptism is, then maybe something is wrong.
                    And who isn't understanding the basic premise of baptism? Ralf certainly appears to understand it. I don't think you do however.


                    It is important to my argument and damages yours
                    No, it doesn't damage mine at all, since it's simply an entirely different topic.

                    Exaltation is true salvation to the saint...whether you accept that teaching of not.
                    You are CONFLATING again.. you do that a lot, it's probably part of why you have such difficulties understanding LDS Doctrine.

                    Salvation is a broad term that simply means being taken out of harms way.. Salvation comes in many forms in the Bible and in the LDS doctrine. Salvation context for MOST Christians is simply being "Saved from Sin".. In that context , Exaltation is NOT Salvation as most Christians understand Salvation, whether you accept that or not. LDS also believe in Salvation from Sin, and Salvation from death..

                    Exaltation is sometimes referred to as Salvation in LDS circles or as JFS described the "Fullness of Salvation".. (Not the true Salvation as you just described it) But it's NOT the same thing as "Salvation from sin".. To be saved from sin one only needs to be saved to the CK.. which is synonymous with what most Christians identify as Heaven. Exaltation is more akin to the Doctrines of Crowns that some Christians believe in, such as the 'Crown of Glory'.. that is something you EARN by your actions beyond those necessary for Salvation from sin.

                    So baptism seems to have some exceptions with regards to being saved from sin into the CK. Whether or not one also must be baptized to be exalted, such as those little children is a bit of a grey area.. It maybe that somewhere in the here-after those children and any other exceptions to the mortal baptism expectation will be baptized to fulfill the ordinance eternally, but at this time that hasn't been revealed, just like a lot of things have yet to be revealed, and it is not pertinent to our present salvation. What is certain though is that LDS have much much more revealed regarding the here-after than any Traditional Christian.
                    Last edited by oceancoast; 07-11-18, 09:20 PM.
                    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” -- George Carlin

                    We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideals of Christianity, our movement is Christian. - Adolf Hitler

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oceancoast View Post
                      And who isn't understanding the basic premise of baptism? Ralf certainly appears to understand it. I don't think you do however.


                      No, it doesn't damage mine at all, since it's simply an entirely different topic.

                      You are CONFLATING again.. you do that a lot, it's probably part of why you have such difficulties understanding LDS Doctrine.

                      Salvation is a broad term that simply means being taken out of harms way.. Salvation comes in many forms in the Bible and in the LDS doctrine. Salvation context for MOST Christians is simply being "Saved from Sin".. In that context , Exaltation is NOT Salvation as most Christians understand Salvation, whether you accept that or not. LDS also believe in Salvation from Sin, and Salvation from death..

                      Exaltation is sometimes referred to as Salvation in LDS circles or as JFS described the "Fullness of Salvation".. (Not the true Salvation as you just described it) But it's NOT the same thing as "Salvation from sin".. To be saved from sin one only needs to be saved to the CK.. which is synonymous with what most Christians identify as Heaven. Exaltation is more akin to the Doctrines of Crowns that some Christians believe in, such as the 'Crown of Glory'.. that is something you EARN by your actions beyond those necessary for Salvation from sin.

                      So baptism seems to have some exceptions with regards to being saved from sin into the CK. Whether or not one also must be baptized to be exalted, such as those little children is a bit of a grey area.. It maybe that somewhere in the here-after those children and any other exceptions to the mortal baptism expectation will be baptized to fulfill the ordinance eternally, but at this time that hasn't been revealed, just like a lot of things have yet to be revealed, and it is not pertinent to our present salvation. What is certain though is that LDS have much much more revealed regarding the here-after than any Traditional Christian.
                      You can be saved from sin in the terrestrial it is different levels or estates of salvation...exaltation is the fullness and true salvation for the saint...have you ever heard a LDS prophet teach to strive for anything less?

                      Exaltation is blaspheme, man making himself a God...and is nothing like any Christian doctrine or teaching. Show me any Christian teaching where a crown is Godhood with the all power and knowledge just like God. It is nothing like Mormonism. Having spirit children and creating worlds is a bit different OC.


                      But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Markk View Post

                        You can be saved from sin in the terrestrial it is different levels or estates of salvation.
                        False You clearly don't understand the doctrine.

                        Telestial and terrestial kingdoms are degrees of damnation and separation from God.


                        ..exaltation is the fullness and true salvation for the saint...have you ever heard a LDS prophet teach to strive for anything less?
                        once again, you conflate the issue here to suit yourself. As I ALREADY stated.. In LDS Circles the Salvation spoken of is actually Exaltation.. but it's NOT the same thing as most Christians understand Salvation, and it's NOT Salvation from Sin. Salvation from Sin is entrance into the CK.. Heaven..

                        Exaltation is blaspheme, man making himself a God.
                        the only blashpheme is what YOU Project here.. This is NOT the doctrine of Exaltation.. Nobody in the LDS faith is MAKING HIMSELF A GOD. Only God can do that. So you clearly misrepresent LDS beliefs to support your distorted anti-Mormons agenda.. and you call yourself "Christian"?

                        ..and is nothing like any Christian doctrine or teaching.
                        False.. there are plenty of historical references to doctrines of deification.. Even if your apostate form of protestant Evangelicalism doesn't accept them. But the similarity I pointed to is the doctrines of "Crown" which you have previously said you believe in.. The Crowns are rewards given to select individuals that are BEYOND the salvation into heaven based upon merit. Do you deny?


                        Show me any Christian teaching where a crown is Godhood with the all power and knowledge just like God.
                        I didn't say there was an EXACT match.. clearly as LDS we believe your understanding of the 'Crowns' is an apostate view and is serverly lacking.. Please explain what your faith teaches a "Crown of GLORY" is EXACTLY.. no generalizations Mark.. I want EXPLICT Description of what a Crown of Glory IS. I'm willing to be YOU HAVE NO IDEA.


                        “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” -- George Carlin

                        We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideals of Christianity, our movement is Christian. - Adolf Hitler

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by quetzloc View Post
                          Actually I thought the issue was baptism allowed at 8, unless you are the child of a gay couple, where then the church withholds baptism until you are 18, thus purposefully blocking one from a critical component to salvation.
                          Using your (flawed) logic, ANY church that doesn't baptize babies the same day they are born, is purposefully blocking one from a critical component to salvation.

                          You still wanna stick with your logic?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oceancoast View Post
                            False You clearly don't understand the doctrine.

                            Telestial and terrestial kingdoms are degrees of damnation and separation from God.



                            once again, you conflate the issue here to suit yourself. As I ALREADY stated.. In LDS Circles the Salvation spoken of is actually Exaltation.. but it's NOT the same thing as most Christians understand Salvation, and it's NOT Salvation from Sin. Salvation from Sin is entrance into the CK.. Heaven..


                            the only blashpheme is what YOU Project here.. This is NOT the doctrine of Exaltation.. Nobody in the LDS faith is MAKING HIMSELF A GOD. Only God can do that. So you clearly misrepresent LDS beliefs to support your distorted anti-Mormons agenda.. and you call yourself "Christian"?


                            False.. there are plenty of historical references to doctrines of deification.. Even if your apostate form of protestant Evangelicalism doesn't accept them. But the similarity I pointed to is the doctrines of "Crown" which you have previously said you believe in.. The Crowns are rewards given to select individuals that are BEYOND the salvation into heaven based upon merit. Do you deny?



                            I didn't say there was an EXACT match.. clearly as LDS we believe your understanding of the 'Crowns' is an apostate view and is serverly lacking.. Please explain what your faith teaches a "Crown of GLORY" is EXACTLY.. no generalizations Mark.. I want EXPLICT Description of what a Crown of Glory IS. I'm willing to be YOU HAVE NO IDEA.

                            In the terrestrial you can me a baptized lazy Mormon, who can be with Christ, who is God...just not the Father. everyone but the sons of perdition will receive a "degree of salvation."
                            D&C &76 description reads...

                            Sons of perdition suffer eternal damnation; all others gain some degree of salvation;


                            And verse 88 reads that even the telestial receive salvation...

                            76: 88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

                            You are confused with anything less than full salvation is damnation for the saint...as taught by BRM...he teaches that even people in the lower CK are damned. Which is why I said exaltation is true salvation for the saint...all else is damnation. This is for the saint only...all others receive a degree of salvation.

                            1. Eternal damnation is the opposite of eternal life, and all those who do not gain eternal life, or exaltation in the highest heaven within the celestial kingdom, are partakers of eternal damnation. Their eternal condemnation is to have limitations imposed upon them so that they cannot progress to the state of godhood and gain a fullness of all things.

                            Bruce R. McConkie. Mormon Doctrine (Kindle Locations 5950-5952).


                            from the encyclopedia of Mormonism
                            Salvation

                            Author: Burton, Alma P.


                            Salvation is the greatest gift of God . The root of the word means to be saved, or placed beyond the power of one's enemies (TPJS, pp. 297, 301, 305). It is redemption from the bondage of sin and death, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Some degree of salvation will come to all of God's children except the sons of perdition. Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you" . Paul said, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars…. So also is the resurrection of the dead" . Paul also explained that "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" . The Latter-day Saint concept of salvation derives from the teachings of Jesus Christ and the revelations given to ancient and latter-day prophets. It is evident from such teachings that there are different degrees or levels of salvation in the afterlife .

                            There are various levels of salvation because there are various levels of belief and works among people. The Prophet Joseph Smith observed, "If God rewarded every one according to the deeds done in the body the term "Heaven' as intended for the Saints' eternal home, must include more kingdoms than one" (TPJS, pp. 10-11).

                            The gospel of Jesus Christ comprises fundamental principles and ordinances that must be followed to obtain a fulness of salvation. The first steps are faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, and the laying on of hands by one who is in authority for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Additional ordinances are administered in the temple. And finally, "he only is saved who endureth unto the end" .

                            The most sacred ordinances pertaining to the salvation of both the living and the dead are performed in the temples. These ordinances include the Endowment, the sealing of husband and wife to form an eternal marriage, and the sealing of children to parents to form an eternal family. All the ordinances that are essential for the salvation of the living are likewise essential for the dead, beginning with proxy baptism for the dead. These can only be performed in a temple. Baptism is for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom; the Endowment and the sealing ordinances are for exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom. In the mercy of God and his love for his children, the Plan of Salvation provides for everyone to hear and respond to the gospel either in this life or in the spirit world so that all who will may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

                            Salvation in a Latter-day Saint context includes activity and service in the kingdom of God for all eternity, unhampered by the effects of sin, death, physical pain, sickness, or other impediments to joy. The highest level of salvation is to become like God and involves a family unit. Lesser degrees of salvation are correspondingly less glorious and have restrictions. ALMA P. BURTON


                            You are wrong OC...
                            But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Markk View Post

                              In the terrestrial you can me a baptized lazy Mormon, who can be with Christ, who is God...just not the Father. everyone but the sons of perdition will receive a "degree of salvation."
                              D&C &76 description reads...

                              Sons of perdition suffer eternal damnation; all others gain some degree of salvation;


                              And verse 88 reads that even the telestial receive salvation...

                              76: 88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

                              You are confused with anything less than full salvation is damnation for the saint...as taught by BRM...he teaches that even people in the lower CK are damned. Which is why I said exaltation is true salvation for the saint...all else is damnation. This is for the saint only...all others receive a degree of salvation.

                              1. Eternal damnation is the opposite of eternal life, and all those who do not gain eternal life, or exaltation in the highest heaven within the celestial kingdom, are partakers of eternal damnation. Their eternal condemnation is to have limitations imposed upon them so that they cannot progress to the state of godhood and gain a fullness of all things.

                              Bruce R. McConkie. Mormon Doctrine (Kindle Locations 5950-5952).


                              from the encyclopedia of Mormonism
                              Salvation

                              Author: Burton, Alma P.


                              Salvation is the greatest gift of God . The root of the word means to be saved, or placed beyond the power of one's enemies (TPJS, pp. 297, 301, 305). It is redemption from the bondage of sin and death, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Some degree of salvation will come to all of God's children except the sons of perdition. Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you" . Paul said, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars…. So also is the resurrection of the dead" . Paul also explained that "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" . The Latter-day Saint concept of salvation derives from the teachings of Jesus Christ and the revelations given to ancient and latter-day prophets. It is evident from such teachings that there are different degrees or levels of salvation in the afterlife .

                              There are various levels of salvation because there are various levels of belief and works among people. The Prophet Joseph Smith observed, "If God rewarded every one according to the deeds done in the body the term "Heaven' as intended for the Saints' eternal home, must include more kingdoms than one" (TPJS, pp. 10-11).

                              The gospel of Jesus Christ comprises fundamental principles and ordinances that must be followed to obtain a fulness of salvation. The first steps are faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, and the laying on of hands by one who is in authority for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Additional ordinances are administered in the temple. And finally, "he only is saved who endureth unto the end" .

                              The most sacred ordinances pertaining to the salvation of both the living and the dead are performed in the temples. These ordinances include the Endowment, the sealing of husband and wife to form an eternal marriage, and the sealing of children to parents to form an eternal family. All the ordinances that are essential for the salvation of the living are likewise essential for the dead, beginning with proxy baptism for the dead. These can only be performed in a temple. Baptism is for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom; the Endowment and the sealing ordinances are for exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom. In the mercy of God and his love for his children, the Plan of Salvation provides for everyone to hear and respond to the gospel either in this life or in the spirit world so that all who will may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

                              Salvation in a Latter-day Saint context includes activity and service in the kingdom of God for all eternity, unhampered by the effects of sin, death, physical pain, sickness, or other impediments to joy. The highest level of salvation is to become like God and involves a family unit. Lesser degrees of salvation are correspondingly less glorious and have restrictions. ALMA P. BURTON


                              You are wrong OC...
                              NO, Mark, I am not wrong.. you are.. you conflate the subjects which is disingenuous.
                              “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” -- George Carlin

                              We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideals of Christianity, our movement is Christian. - Adolf Hitler

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oceancoast View Post

                                No, it's not blocking anything at all.. and if you read D&C 137.. Baptism is not absolutely necessary for everyone.. if there are circumstance beyond the individuals control, God judges by the heart. So the delay until the person is of legal age to decide for themselves is not Blocking anyone.
                                Its blocking them from membership, participation in things like baptisms for the dead, holding the priesthood, etc. I cant believe you wouldnt see that. Its a rejection, and mormon leaders blame it on God. It has been a contributing factor for many suicides. Mormon leaders know that. Why do you think theyre trying so hard right now to change their image around gay issues?
                                ~ There is life after mormonism, and it's good! Just stay close to Christ.
                                ~ You can't follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.
                                ~ "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

                                Comment

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