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Plagiarism of the Bible - stealing idioms

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  • Plagiarism of the Bible - stealing idioms

    Many kilobytes have been spilled trying to show where Joseph Smith Copied the Bible.

    In another thread read we discussed white and black metaphors in the Bible, we showed how David in psalms 51 wanted God to wash his already white skin so that it could be as white as snow —-dare we say exceedingly white.

    We we also discussed lamentations 4: wherein we found a comparison of white and black visages that were metaphors of purity and sinfulness.

    Now, Joseph if he is a master con artist and copier of biblical themes, did he just copy these ideas? Or did he make up whiter than white skin and dark skin.

    Or did parley or Sidney tell him to copy that part.

    If they copied this obvious biblical idiom then it would mean the Book of Mormon is teaching a skin of blackness is just pale gloomy looking people ...nothing to do with literal skin color.

    If you don’t think he copied this idea of super white skin and black as coal skin, then you can’t say what else he did or didn’t copy with any assurety.

    Your plagiarism arguments....already super week are crumbling all around you.
    Last edited by Mod10; 07-10-18, 03:01 PM. Reason: Alert, no violation. But if thread becomes more about the Bibke, then it will be moved.

  • #2
    Another logically made point. Well done.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
      Many kilobytes have been spilled trying to show where Joseph Smith Copied the Bible.

      In another thread read we discussed white and black metaphors in the Bible, we showed how David in psalms 51 wanted God to wash his already white skin so that it could be as white as snow —-dare we say exceedingly white.

      We we also discussed lamentations 4: wherein we found a comparison of white and black visages that were metaphors of purity and sinfulness.

      Now, Joseph if he is a master con artist and copier of biblical themes, did he just copy these ideas? Or did he make up whiter than white skin and dark skin.

      Or did parley or Sidney tell him to copy that part.

      If they copied this obvious biblical idiom then it would mean the Book of Mormon is teaching a skin of blackness is just pale gloomy looking people ...nothing to do with literal skin color.

      If you don’t think he copied this idea of super white skin and black as coal skin, then you can’t say what else he did or didn’t copy with any assurety.

      Your plagiarism arguments....already super week are crumbling all around you.
      Joseph Smith was delusional, acted in ways that were ungodly, and he lied prolifically.

      It is fundamentally necessary and healthy for Christians to acknowledge that God foreknows nothing uncertainly, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks "free-will" flat…

      Martin Luther The Bondage of the Will

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
        Many kilobytes have been spilled trying to show where Joseph Smith Copied the Bible.

        In another thread read we discussed white and black metaphors in the Bible, we showed how David in psalms 51 wanted God to wash his already white skin so that it could be as white as snow —-dare we say exceedingly white.

        We we also discussed lamentations 4: wherein we found a comparison of white and black visages that were metaphors of purity and sinfulness.

        Now, Joseph if he is a master con artist and copier of biblical themes, did he just copy these ideas? Or did he make up whiter than white skin and dark skin.

        Or did parley or Sidney tell him to copy that part.

        If they copied this obvious biblical idiom then it would mean the Book of Mormon is teaching a skin of blackness is just pale gloomy looking people ...nothing to do with literal skin color.

        If you don’t think he copied this idea of super white skin and black as coal skin, then you can’t say what else he did or didn’t copy with any assurety.

        Your plagiarism arguments....already super week are crumbling all around you.
        You're still just trying to prop up your own opinion that mormon racism had nothing to do with skin color. You're wrong.
        ~ There is life after mormonism, and it's good! Just stay close to Christ.
        ~ You can't follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.
        ~ "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Magdalena View Post

          You're still just trying to prop up your own opinion that mormon racism had nothing to do with skin color. You're wrong.
          Burying your head in the sand instead of addressing the obvious dilemma that those who oppose Mormonism face is...revealing.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
            Many kilobytes have been spilled trying to show where Joseph Smith Copied the Bible.

            In another thread read we discussed white and black metaphors in the Bible, we showed how David in psalms 51 wanted God to wash his already white skin so that it could be as white as snow —-dare we say exceedingly white.

            We we also discussed lamentations 4: wherein we found a comparison of white and black visages that were metaphors of purity and sinfulness.

            Now, Joseph if he is a master con artist and copier of biblical themes, did he just copy these ideas? Or did he make up whiter than white skin and dark skin.

            Or did parley or Sidney tell him to copy that part.

            If they copied this obvious biblical idiom then it would mean the Book of Mormon is teaching a skin of blackness is just pale gloomy looking people ...nothing to do with literal skin color.

            If you don’t think he copied this idea of super white skin and black as coal skin, then you can’t say what else he did or didn’t copy with any assurety.

            Your plagiarism arguments....already super week are crumbling all around you.


            He copied many things from the KJV Bible and he added 19th century understanding into it. He even copied translation errors that the KJV translators made from the MSS...word for word.

            The premise of your OP is skewed, Joseph simply added 19th century racial issues into his theology...explaining not even the black slaves origin, but the American Indians origin. Joseph and whoever "might" have helped him...may be the ones that did not understand metaphoric language, at least when it came to race.

            As much as you want to you can't escape his early teachings and how those that knew him and sat under his teaching, interpreted his teachings.

            Your approach in all this is to discredit and throw all these teachings and interpretations under the rug. I think it is good that you do this, and I hope what you are trying to do catches on, in that it will only weaken the control the 15 men in Utah have on the folks.





            But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Markk View Post



              He copied many things from the KJV Bible and he added 19th century understanding into it. He even copied translation errors that the KJV translators made from the MSS...word for word.

              The premise of your OP is skewed, Joseph simply added 19th century racial issues into his theology...explaining not even the black slaves origin, but the American Indians origin. Joseph and whoever "might" have helped him...may be the ones that did not understand metaphoric language, at least when it came to race.

              As much as you want to you can't escape his early teachings and how those that knew him and sat under his teaching, interpreted his teachings.

              Your approach in all this is to discredit and throw all these teachings and interpretations under the rug. I think it is good that you do this, and I hope what you are trying to do catches on, in that it will only weaken the control the 15 men in Utah have on the folks.

              Iím not trying To escape early teachings. Iím not trying to discredit prophets, Iím not throwing anything under the rug, Iím certainly not causing any division or weakening.

              Iím very understanding of our earlier prophets and apostles. They didnít have the research advantages we enjoy today. They operated at times with limited scientific/linguistic back ground.

              Iím patient with your false accusations of my position, and what I am trying to do. I expect it from anti mormons. I know you are not different. You like to try and pit Mormons against each other or stir up false points of contention.

              It doesnít bug me, I expect it. And I forgive you.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
                I’m not trying To escape early teachings. I’m not trying to discredit prophets, I’m not throwing anything under the rug, I’m certainly not causing any division or weakening.

                I’m very understanding of our earlier prophets and apostles. They didn’t have the research advantages we enjoy today. They operated at times with limited scientific/linguistic back ground.

                I’m patient with your false accusations of my position, and what I am trying to do. I expect it from anti mormons. I know you are not different. You like to try and pit Mormons against each other or stir up false points of contention.

                It doesn’t bug me, I expect it. And I forgive you.
                You may not think you do, but you do. You believe you know more about the LDS faith than they did...you just did it again by stating you know better than them... when you said...

                I’m very understanding of our earlier prophets and apostles. They didn’t have the research advantages we enjoy today. They operated at times with limited scientific/linguistic back ground.
                I gave you a recent teach that is currently taught that Black and White in the BoM refer to race...which blows your theory out of the water.

                I am not pitting you against other Mormons, you are...you have ralf twisted like a pretzel. You are encouraging them, even if unintentionally, that the GA are wrong an awful lot of the time, becasue I agree with you, does not make it me pitting your theories against what they (we) are taught.

                But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Markk View Post

                  You may not think you do, but you do. You believe you know more about the LDS faith than they did...you just did it again by stating you know better than them... when you said...



                  I gave you a recent teach that is currently taught that Black and White in the BoM refer to race...which blows your theory out of the water.

                  I am not pitting you against other Mormons, you are...you have ralf twisted like a pretzel. You are encouraging them, even if unintentionally, that the GA are wrong an awful lot of the time, becasue I agree with you, does not make it me pitting your theories against what they (we) are taught.
                  Ralfís fine, heís not twisted.

                  Comments like the ones you are making just now definitely try and pit Mormons against each other. You just donít like it being pointed out.

                  You exaggerate, Iíve never said ďan awful lot of the timeĒ, thatís a misquote.

                  Iíve said- sandwich short of a picnic, then gave example like men living on the moon etc. things today that are outlandish now but would be accepted in their day.

                  You donít agree with me, I believe these are men called by and inspired by God.

                  You beleive they are false prophets.

                  You believe the Book of Mormon contains a 19th century racists ideology.

                  I belive it is ancient scripture. That has massive Okd Testament & Hebrew influence.

                  You believe I think I know more than the brethren. That couldnít be further from the goal or the truth.

                  I believe that individuals who study a doctrine or idea in depth can be inspired and learn more about a particular subject than other humans including apostles and prophets. Why wouldnít it be that way?

                  We all have to learn line upon line.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
                    Ralf’s fine, he’s not twisted.

                    Comments like the ones you are making just now definitely try and pit Mormons against each other. You just don’t like it being pointed out.

                    You exaggerate, I’ve never said “an awful lot of the time”, that’s a misquote.

                    I’ve said- sandwich short of a picnic, then gave example like men living on the moon etc. things today that are outlandish now but would be accepted in their day.

                    You don’t agree with me, I believe these are men called by and inspired by God.

                    You beleive they are false prophets.

                    You believe the Book of Mormon contains a 19th century racists ideology.

                    I belive it is ancient scripture. That has massive Okd Testament & Hebrew influence.

                    You believe I think I know more than the brethren. That couldn’t be further from the goal or the truth.

                    I believe that individuals who study a doctrine or idea in depth can be inspired and learn more about a particular subject than other humans including apostles and prophets. Why wouldn’t it be that way?

                    We all have to learn line upon line.
                    You said...in regards to the GA...

                    "They didnít know, They were literalists. They were not educated on idioms and metaphors."

                    Now you are saying that Perkins is just inspired by God to understand metaphors, which means the GA were not.

                    You believe I think I know more than the brethren. That couldn’t be further from the goal or the truth.
                    You certainly have not shown that .

                    The church teaches the 2 Nephi verse ..."black and white" ...means race. For the Record, are the GA, and by default the church... right, or wrong?
                    But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Markk View Post

                      You said...in regards to the GA...

                      "They didn’t know, They were literalists. They were not educated on idioms and metaphors."

                      Now you are saying that Perkins is just inspired by God to understand metaphors, which means the GA were not.



                      You certainly have not shown that .

                      The church teaches the 2 Nephi verse ..."black and white" ...means race. For the Record, are the GA, and by default the church... right, or wrong?
                      So you saying that I called them ďuneducatedĒ and wrong an ďawful lotĒ were things you just made up? Misremembered? What? Hyperbole?

                      Why would you make stuff up when its all out here in public?

                      The scriptures are what is right.

                      The church is the body of believers. I am one of those believers.

                      The general authorities are part of the foundation of the church, with Christ the chief cornerstone . Some would agree with me, some may not.

                      What is important is that all are welcome in the Body of Christ, and have opportunity for all blessings.

                      We are allowed to see this idiom differently it doesnít change the saving ordinances of the gospel today.





                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
                        So you saying that I called them ďuneducatedĒ and wrong an ďawful lotĒ were things you just made up? Misremembered? What? Hyperbole?

                        Why would you make stuff up when its all out here in public?

                        The scriptures are what is right.

                        The church is the body of believers. I am one of those believers.

                        The general authorities are part of the foundation of the church, with Christ the chief cornerstone . Some would agree with me, some may not.

                        What is important is that all are welcome in the Body of Christ, and have opportunity for all blessings.

                        We are allowed to see this idiom differently it doesnít change the saving ordinances of the gospel today.




                        Yes you are allowed to believe what you want... who cares, you crossed the line with total disrespect for the GA teachings on this issue. Beside them being a sandwich short of a picnic...and uneducated in understanding metaphors...you simple stated they were wrong...you even came up with a excuse that when Oaks said " We also understand "black and white," which means all races..." he really did not mean what he said.

                        Believe what you like, and we can debate it, but the facts are that the church disagrees with your theory, it is not what the BoM, BoA, or Book of Moses teaches.

                        I do respect your opinion that the ban was just from racist men, with I 100% agree with...but unfortunately the church holds fast that it was from God.

                        Also I can see you are back tracking a bit...you don't have to do that.
                        But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Markk View Post

                          Yes you are allowed to believe what you want... who cares, you crossed the line with total disrespect for the GA teachings on this issue. Beside them being a sandwich short of a picnic...and uneducated in understanding metaphors...you simple stated they were wrong...you even came up with a excuse that when Oaks said " We also understand "black and white," which means all races..." he really did not mean what he said.

                          Believe what you like, and we can debate it, but the facts are that the church disagrees with your theory, it is not what the BoM, BoA, or Book of Moses teaches.

                          I do respect your opinion that the ban was just from racist men, with I 100% agree with...but unfortunately the church holds fast that it was from God.

                          Also I can see you are back tracking a bit...you don't have to do that.
                          You are a funny guy.

                          I never used the word uneducated.

                          the brethren don’t claim to be correct in everything they utter.

                          We do not hold them to be infallible.

                          Those who oppose mormonism hold our General authorities to a higher standard of perfection than we do.
                          Last edited by CTR-Lloyd; 07-08-18, 01:04 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
                            You are a funny guy.

                            I never used the word uneducated.

                            the brethren don’t claim to be correct in everything they utter.

                            Why would I hold them to a higher status than they hold themselves?
                            This is what you said...
                            "They didnít know, They were literalists. They were not educated on idioms and metaphors."
                            This is what I said you said...paraphrasing..."and uneducated in understanding metaphors.."

                            That means the same thing Lloyd...and you stated "they didn't know"

                            the brethren donít claim to be correct in everything they utter.

                            Why would I hold them to a higher status than they hold themselves?
                            You are still saying they are wrong? That again means 140 years of GA "uttering" wrong teachings on this subject.

                            Do you believe Oaks was wrong...why?
                            But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Markk View Post

                              This is what you said...


                              This is what I said you said...paraphrasing..."and uneducated in understanding metaphors.."

                              That means the same thing Lloyd...and you stated "they didn't know"



                              You are still saying they are wrong? That again means 140 years of GA "uttering" wrong teachings on this subject.

                              Do you believe Oaks was wrong...why?
                              Hold on, it’s becoming clear why there is a struggle here. If you can’t tell the difference between - what I said, —-ďthey were literalists and they were not educated on idioms and metaphors. ď Vs. what you said I said— flat out “Ēuneducated”Ē with no context or direct quote—
                              then how are you going to understand the idiom.

                              I find your your inability to quote me properly is dishonest.

                              I know Christians wouldn’t do that, but those who oppose Mormonism, are a different category of Christians.



                              Comment

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