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Plagiarism of the Bible - stealing idioms

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  • #16
    Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
    Hold on, it’s becoming clear why there is a struggle here. If you can’t tell the difference between - what I said, —-“they were literalists and they were not educated on idioms and metaphors. “ Vs. what you said I said— flat out “”uneducated”” with no context or direct quote—
    then how are you going to understand the idiom.

    I find your your inability to quote me properly is dishonest.

    I know Christians wouldn’t do that, but those who oppose Mormonism, are a different category of Christians.


    Context is everything, and I think I am very clear here in the context of metaphors. Your straw man has fallen and you tried to backpedal, you realize you made some remarks about the GA you which you could take back...but instead of doing so, you are resorting to ad homs.

    This is my first remark about your "uneducated" statement, beside asking if I could use it in my tag line,directed to Ralf...on July 3rd...

    Ralf, i want you to try to grasp what Lloyd is saying here...he is saying that the prophets and apostles of LDS church do not understand the basic idea of what a metaphor is...and for almost 200 years, have taught a racist doctrine to millions of members, becasue they are not educated in Biblical metaphorical language . So in all those years, with all those GA's they were not educated enough to figure it out and understand what the BoM teaches in context.

    You jumped on board with his theory, without thinking it out, you are part of his stating your leaders are not educated enough to understand what a metaphor is in context in a sentence..
    This is a fair statement of what you wrote. You said it, not me. Own it, say you were wrong if you like and we can move on...but please don't start with the ad homs...we all say things we don't mean...and the cover up is worse that just taking it back. We both understand that there are many well educated GA, and I think we both understand they pretty much all know a metaphor is. If it was 50/50, or even 20/80 on this I would look deeper into you point, but it 100% race with every GA I have read on the subject. That is hundreds if not thousand of LDS leaders.



    But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

    Comment


    • #17
      Ad Homs? Thatís your MO.

      As as soon as you were provided with names of others who views I shared you attacked them rather than address the message.

      You didnít even attempt to address the Hebraisms, rather you criticized the authors as being uneducated, and not scholars.

      Then, you misrepresent what I say, by paraphrasing to suit your agenda.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
        Ad Homs? That’s your MO.

        As as soon as you were provided with names of others who views I shared you attacked them rather than address the message.

        You didn’t even attempt to address the Hebraisms, rather you criticized the authors as being uneducated, and not scholars.

        Then, you misrepresent what I say, by paraphrasing to suit your agenda.
        I have showed you what the church teaches, which is that 2 Nephi teaches about Race, not good and evil in regards to skin colors. I'm sorry, but that is what the church teaches.

        I read you link, and I am even listening to Perkins. Lindsey is no scholar and just a faith promoter, Nibley is Nibley, and JT was said to be taking liberty's by Lindsey if I remember correctly. Those 3 or 4 paragraph is not enough to but a dent in LDS thought on this topic.

        Bottom line though, it comes back to what the church teaches...and in order for your theory to true, you have erase 140 years of teachings and you can't do that without making 100's of GA less than competent in their callings.

        I was serious about making a list of GA false teachings, opinions, and changing doctrines...I think if we did this it would be a very large list.

        But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Markk View Post
          I have showed you what the church teaches, which is that 2 Nephi teaches about Race, not good and evil in regards to skin colors.
          Uh, if you are right about that, then WHAT RACE was cursed, according to 2 Nephi?


          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post

            Uh, if you are right about that, then WHAT RACE was cursed, according to 2 Nephi?

            The discussion is about 2 Nephi 26:33

            2 Nephi 26:33
            33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he ainviteth them ball to ccome unto him and partake of his goodness; and he ddenieth none that come unto him, black and white, ebond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the fheathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.
            The "Black and White" was about race.

            But If I had to answer your question literally...disobedient Jews were cursed, who became American Indians, then maybe central and south Americans. Kinda a evolving issue.

            I just noticed you are banned again, you are my hero, you remind me of Steve McQueen in the Great Escape...always being sent to the cooler.







            But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Markk View Post

              The discussion is about 2 Nephi 26:33



              The "Black and White" was about race.

              But If I had to answer your question literally...disobedient Jews were cursed, who became American Indians, then maybe central and south Americans. Kinda a evolving issue.

              I just noticed you are banned again, you are my hero, you remind me of Steve McQueen in the Great Escape...always being sent to the cooler.
              What we have here ..... is a failure to communicate.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Markk View Post

                I have showed you what the church teaches, which is that 2 Nephi teaches about Race, not good and evil in regards to skin colors. I'm sorry, but that is what the church teaches.

                I read you link, and I am even listening to Perkins. Lindsey is no scholar and just a faith promoter, Nibley is Nibley, and JT was said to be taking liberty's by Lindsey if I remember correctly. Those 3 or 4 paragraph is not enough to but a dent in LDS thought on this topic.

                Bottom line though, it comes back to what the church teaches...and in order for your theory to true, you have erase 140 years of teachings and you can't do that without making 100's of GA less than competent in their callings.

                I was serious about making a list of GA false teachings, opinions, and changing doctrines...I think if we did this it would be a very large list.
                Bottom line for me is what the scriptures teach.

                The General authorities are called to be missionaries and witnesses. They are to take the gospel to the world.

                They are not called to be scriptorians, or experts in Hebraisms etc.

                Welch (a regular member) discovered chiasmus, Not David O McKay,

                Tombaga was documented, not by a GA

                Provenance of the plates was shown and cataloged by a sister who is a librarian, not the presiding Bishop.


                - most discoveries related to evidences are by members.


                General authorities typically steer clear of pronouncing evidence. they emphasize the spiritual conversion over the evidence based.

                If you are hoping that men who devote their life to building the kingdom, creating stakes, training leaders, running church auxiliaries, etc. must also be experts in middle eastern tradition teachings language, then you expect to much.

                Elder Renlund just cleared up 140 years of teachings on suicide. There was no division in the church because of this. No former prophets were made to be heretics, even though different positions on suicide are on record.

                So can Marvin be the Welch of Skin color, yes!


                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
                  Bottom line for me is what the scriptures teach.

                  The General authorities are called to be missionaries and witnesses. They are to take the gospel to the world.

                  They are not called to be scriptorians, or experts in Hebraisms etc.

                  Welch (a regular member) discovered chiasmus, Not David O McKay,

                  Tombaga was documented, not by a GA

                  Provenance of the plates was shown and cataloged by a sister who is a librarian, not the presiding Bishop.


                  - most discoveries related to evidences are by members.


                  General authorities typically steer clear of pronouncing evidence. they emphasize the spiritual conversion over the evidence based.

                  If you are hoping that men who devote their life to building the kingdom, creating stakes, training leaders, running church auxiliaries, etc. must also be experts in middle eastern tradition teachings language, then you expect to much.

                  Elder Renlund just cleared up 140 years of teachings on suicide. There was no division in the church because of this. No former prophets were made to be heretics, even though different positions on suicide are on record.

                  So can Marvin be the Welch of Skin color, yes!

                  Lloyd wrote...
                  The General authorities are called to be missionaries and witnesses. They are to take the gospel to the world.
                  You left out they are all (15) Prophets, Seers and Revelators? I understand they no longer prophesies, See (into the future), or give revelation, but that is still their #1 job description.

                  https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...ators?lang=eng


                  Again just more disrespect for the office.

                  But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
                    Many kilobytes have been spilled trying to show where Joseph Smith Copied the Bible.

                    In another thread read we discussed white and black metaphors in the Bible, we showed how David in psalms 51 wanted God to wash his already white skin so that it could be as white as snow ó-dare we say exceedingly white.

                    We we also discussed lamentations 4: wherein we found a comparison of white and black visages that were metaphors of purity and sinfulness.

                    Now, Joseph if he is a master con artist and copier of biblical themes, did he just copy these ideas? Or did he make up whiter than white skin and dark skin.

                    Or did parley or Sidney tell him to copy that part.

                    If they copied this obvious biblical idiom then it would mean the Book of Mormon is teaching a skin of blackness is just pale gloomy looking people ...nothing to do with literal skin color.

                    If you donít think he copied this idea of super white skin and black as coal skin, then you canít say what else he did or didnít copy with any assurety.

                    Your plagiarism arguments....already super week are crumbling all around you.
                    Look, the term "skin of blackness" in the BoM means that those who sinned were given a darker complexion. Don't try to twist God's Word to prove such an idiotic belief.

                    We're here to discuss Mormonism, not have the Bible twisted to suit your cult's heresies. And no, we don't dare to say "exceedingly white," a Mormon term exalting white skin.
                    Last edited by Catherine Aurelia; 07-10-18, 09:38 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post

                      Uh, if you are right about that, then WHAT RACE was cursed, according to 2 Nephi?

                      We don't believe 2 Nephi to be anything but a hoax.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                        Look, the term "skin of blackness" in the BoM means that those who sinned were given a darker complexion. Don't try to twist God's Word to prove such an idiotic belief.

                        We're here to discuss Mormonism, not have the Bible twisted to suit your cult's heresies. And no, we don't dare to say "exceedingly white," a Mormon term exalting white skin.
                        Thank you for your ill-considered opinion. Weíll all give it the minimal weight and consideration it deserves.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Markk View Post


                          You left out they are all (15) Prophets, Seers and Revelators? I understand they no longer prophesies, See (into the future), or give revelation, but that is still their #1 job description.

                          https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...ators?lang=eng


                          Again just more disrespect for the office.
                          They describe their calling as a missionary and a witness...are they disrespecting themselves. Their Title is Elder.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                            Look, the term "skin of blackness" in the BoM means that those who sinned were given a darker complexion. Don't try to twist God's Word to prove such an idiotic belief.

                            We're here to discuss Mormonism, not have the Bible twisted to suit your cult's heresies. And no, we don't dare to say "exceedingly white," a Mormon term exalting white skin.
                            Wrong, unless you think Davidís skin is gonna be whiter than snow. Psalms 51.

                            How about lamentations 4:6-8

                            Nephi was educated in Hebrew, so is the Old Testament writers.

                            They used the same examples

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
                              They describe their calling as a missionary and a witness...are they disrespecting themselves. Their Title is Elder.
                              They are a lot of things, ...they are missionaries, elders, apostles, witnesses, and prophets, seers, and revelators..

                              what does a prophet do? whats does a seer do? what does a revelator do?
                              But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand. Joseph Smith...

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Markk View Post

                                They are a lot of things, ...they are missionaries, elders, apostles, witnesses, and prophets, seers, and revelators..

                                what does a prophet do? whats does a seer do? what does a revelator do?
                                Read Elder Renlunds recent teaching on suicide.

                                That should answer your question.

                                Comment

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