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You Must Spill Your Own Blood for Forgiveness Mormons!

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  • You Must Spill Your Own Blood for Forgiveness Mormons!

    "Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon religion and its first prophet, taught that certain sins were so so serious as to put the sinner "beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ." For these fallen sinners, their "only hope" lay in having "their own blood shed to atone." Smith made clear that the shedding of "innocent blood" (including killing anyone less than eight years old, the age of accountability in Mormon teaching) was an unpardonable sin which, along with failing to keep their covenants or betraying their testimonies, could lead to eternal damnation. In Smith's theology, the doctrine applied only to Mormons, but it was widely viewed as providing justification for shedding the blood of apostates.

    Brigham Young took the doctrine of blood atonement further than Smith. According to historian Juanita Brooks, "Young advocated and preached it without compromise." Young, in an 1857 fire-and-brimstone sermon, demanded to know whether his his flock would have the courage to do what was necessary should a fellow Mormon commit an unforgiveable sin: "Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed his blood?" Some sinners, Young preached, who are "now angels to the devil" could have been saved if only some among their Mormon brethren would have "spilled their blood on the ground as a smoking incense to the almighty."


    "February 8, 1857 sermon

    "Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved... and suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, 'shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?'

    "All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers and sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant....

    "I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance... if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the Devil... I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them....

    "This is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it....if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. That is the way to love mankind."

    (Sermon by President Brigham Young, delivered in the Mormon Tabernacle, printed in the Deseret News, February 18, 1857)


    source: http://www.famous-trials.com/mountai.../926-atonement

    While today's Mormons have repudiated the "Blood Atonement" doctrine of Smith and Young, it was pacticed in early Mormonism. Are there any Mormons on this forum who will publicly repudiate it? The Danites were a well-known group of "enforcers" who committed murder, killing "apostatesd" who denied Mormonism. Also, certain sins, such as adultery, were to be atoned for by the sinner's blood as in this case:

    "
    John D. Lee on Blood Atonement (from his confession)

    In his confession, Lee offered a chilling account of one instance of blood atonement in early Utah:

    "Rasmos Anderson was a Danish man who came to Utah... He had married a widow lady somewhat older than himself... At one of the meetings during the reformation Anderson and his step-daughter confessed that they had committed adultery... they were rebaptized and received into full membership. They were then placed under covenant that if they again committed adultery, Anderson should suffer death. Soon after this a charge was laid against Anderson before the Council, accusing him of adultery with his step-daughter. This Council was composed of Klingensmith and his two counselors; it was the Bishop's Council. Without giving Anderson any chance to defend himself or make a statement, the Council voted that Anderson must die for violating his covenants. Klingensmith went to Anderson and notified him that the orders were that he must die by having his throat cut, so that the running of his blood would atone for his sins. Anderson, being a firm believer in the doctrines and teachings of the Mormon Church, made no objections... His wife was ordered to prepare a suit of clean clothing, in which to have her husband buried... she being directed to tell those who should inquire after her husband that he had gone to California.

    "Klingensmith, James Haslem, Daniel McFarland and John M. Higbee dug a grave in the field near Cedar City, and that night, about 12 o'clock, went to Anderson's house and ordered him to make ready to obey Council. Anderson got up... and without a word of remonstrance accompanied those that he believed were carrying out the will of the "Almighty God." They went to the place where the grave was prepared; Anderson knelt upon the side of the grave and prayed. Klingensmith and his company then cut Anderson's throat from ear to ear and held him so that his blood ran into the grave..

    "As soon as he was dead they dressed him in his clean clothes, threw him into the grave and buried him. They then carried his bloody clothing back to his family, and gave them to his wife to wash... She obeyed their orders.... Anderson was killed just before the Mountain Meadows massacre. The killing of Anderson was then considered a religious duty and a just act. It was justified by all the people, for they were bound by the same covenants, and the least word of objection to thus treating the man who had broken his covenant would have brought the same fate upon the person who was so foolish as to raise his voce against any act committed by order of the Church authorities." (source: Ibid.- for the grammatically challenged, IBID. means the previous citation).

    Question: Why wasn't Joseph Smith's throat slit for his adulterous activities?

    Quotes from Smith:

    “I [am] opposed to hanging, even if a man kill another, I will shoot him, or cut off his head, spill his blood on the ground, and let the smoke thereof ascend up to God; and if ever I have the privilege of making a law on that subject, I will have it so.”

    - Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 5, p. 296, 1949

    Young simply taught what Smith had instructed him to teach.

    Again, which Mormons today will repudiate the doctrine of Blood Atonement as taught in early Mormonism?

    The Blood Atonement teaching of Mormonism exists today: http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no56.htm





    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

  • #2
    Who can forget the Kirtland Temple murders in Ohio: http://www.news-herald.com/article/H...NEWS/141239955

    or the LeBaron Mormon cult murders in Mexico and the Southwest Us: http://articles.latimes.com/1992-09-...lebaron-family

    Death has always stalked dissenters in fundie Mormon cults.

    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

    Comment


    • #3
      Not to mention this notorious Mormon-linked murder:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_...nner_of_Heaven

      Be aware if you are a dissenter.
      Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

      Comment


      • #4
        Evil and murderous acts have always existed in Mormonism. They hate for us to bring them up, but why shouldn't we? Evil is embedded in Mormonism Read this:

        http://lifeafter.org/salt-sermon-apo...ately-or-else/
        Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
          Evil and murderous acts have always existed in Mormonism. They hate for us to bring them up, but why shouldn't we? Evil is embedded in Mormonism Read this:

          http://lifeafter.org/salt-sermon-apo...ately-or-else/
          https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cults-groups/general-cult-groups-topics/mormonism/5261357-mormons-really-want-us-to-doubt-our-faith-in-christ?p=5372715#post5372715

          Seem like they have a hard time covering all their arguments. This link shows that all who are Baptized in the Mormon Chruch will be save.

          Or try reading this from LDS.org---provided by Ralf


          Baptism is a sacred ceremony, or ordinance, through which a person promises to follow Jesus Christ. The baptismal ordinance symbolizes the washing away of sins and is necessary to become a member of Christ’s Church. Although many Christian religions consider baptism essential, beliefs differ about how and when one should be baptized. Learn why baptism by immersion is an important, consciously made covenant that, along with the sacrament (Communion), allows an ongoing remission of sins. What is baptism?

          BAPTISM IS A COVENANT

          Baptism is much more than just a tradition or ritual; it is a solemn promise between you and God. It works like a contract: you promise to do certain things and He promises to give you certain blessings if you do them. When you are baptized, you agree to take Jesus’s name upon you (to be called a Christian), to live as a witness of Christ, and to serve Him and keep His commandments. In return, God promises to forgive your sins, give you the companionship of the Holy Spirit to comfort and guide you, and grant you eternal life. (See Mosiah 18:8–10.) BAPTISM IS A SYMBOL OF BEING BORN AGAIN AND IS PERFORMED BY IMMERSION

          The word baptism comes from a Greek word meaning to “dip” or “immerse.” The scriptures recount baptisms by immersion, including the example of Jesus, who, “when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water” (Matthew 3:16). This immersion is beautifully symbolic, not only of the washing away of sins, but of death, burial, and resurrection. Baptism signifies the end of your old way of life and birth to a life committed to Christian values (see Romans 6:3–6). BAPTISM IS AN ACT THAT CLEANSES US SO WE CAN RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST

          Although baptism is itself a significant event, this ordinance is not fully complete without receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit). Jesus taught that “except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). The gift of the Holy Ghost is given to you after your baptism so you can receive God’s help and guidance in keeping the promises you made to Him when you were baptized.

          LDS.org


          What a Religion. Seems like a book on apologetics for the Mormon Chruch is a real impossibility as so many doctrines and beliefs conflict with one another.
          Last edited by jamesone5; 07-09-18, 10:05 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by jamesone5 View Post

            https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cults-groups/general-cult-groups-topics/mormonism/5261357-mormons-really-want-us-to-doubt-our-faith-in-christ?p=5372715#post5372715

            Seem like they have a hard time covering all their arguments. This link shows that all who are Baptized in the Mormon Chruch will be save.

            Or try reading this from LDS.org---provided by Ralf


            Baptism is a sacred ceremony, or ordinance, through which a person promises to follow Jesus Christ. The baptismal ordinance symbolizes the washing away of sins and is necessary to become a member of Christ’s Church. Although many Christian religions consider baptism essential, beliefs differ about how and when one should be baptized. Learn why baptism by immersion is an important, consciously made covenant that, along with the sacrament (Communion), allows an ongoing remission of sins. What is baptism?

            BAPTISM IS A COVENANT

            Baptism is much more than just a tradition or ritual; it is a solemn promise between you and God. It works like a contract: you promise to do certain things and He promises to give you certain blessings if you do them. When you are baptized, you agree to take Jesus’s name upon you (to be called a Christian), to live as a witness of Christ, and to serve Him and keep His commandments. In return, God promises to forgive your sins, give you the companionship of the Holy Spirit to comfort and guide you, and grant you eternal life. (See Mosiah 18:8–10.) BAPTISM IS A SYMBOL OF BEING BORN AGAIN AND IS PERFORMED BY IMMERSION

            The word baptism comes from a Greek word meaning to “dip” or “immerse.” The scriptures recount baptisms by immersion, including the example of Jesus, who, “when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water” (Matthew 3:16). This immersion is beautifully symbolic, not only of the washing away of sins, but of death, burial, and resurrection. Baptism signifies the end of your old way of life and birth to a life committed to Christian values (see Romans 6:3–6). BAPTISM IS AN ACT THAT CLEANSES US SO WE CAN RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST

            Although baptism is itself a significant event, this ordinance is not fully complete without receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit). Jesus taught that “except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). The gift of the Holy Ghost is given to you after your baptism so you can receive God’s help and guidance in keeping the promises you made to Him when you were baptized.

            LDS.org


            What a Religion. Seems like a book on apologetics for the Mormon Chruch is a real impossibility as so many doctrines and beliefs conflict with one another.
            Let's not forget, either, that they REBAPTIZE those who have left the cult. In fact, in the Mormon "Reformation" they REBAPTIZED all who came to Utah. Apparently the first baptism didn't "stick."
            Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

              Let's not forget, either, that they REBAPTIZE those who have left the cult. In fact, in the Mormon "Reformation" they REBAPTIZED all who came to Utah. Apparently the first baptism didn't "stick."
              Gee I wonder what those so-called "high priests" who originally baptized them thought of that?

              Their so-called authority was not all that authoritative as it seems.

              I had a couple of experiences in baptizing others as an Elder in the Church----particularity with my own father who joined the Chruch in 1982 or so. As I look back there was no power that I was giving my own dad and it really was very silly in retrospect.

              But I am Blessed that I did my part in showing my dad the TRUE Christ, shortly before he died.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by jamesone5 View Post

                Gee I wonder what those so-called "high priests" who originally baptized them thought of that?

                Their so-called authority was not all that authoritative as it seems.

                I had a couple of experiences in baptizing others as an Elder in the Church----particularity with my own father who joined the Chruch in 1982 or so. As I look back there was no power that I was giving my own dad and it really was very silly in retrospect.

                But I am Blessed that I did my part in showing my dad the TRUE Christ, shortly before he died.
                Thank the Lord you were able to show your dad the truth.
                Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                Comment


                • #9
                  the blood covenant doctrine and subsequent reactions (such as the Danites) is a major problem set which the modern LDS church has attempted to move away from. However, it is a historical reality, and if they were to remove the sermons, teachings, and portions of doctrine which discuss it, many segments of their foundational teachings would be left looking like swiss cheese. this forces them to leave the BA teachings in place, but ignore them.

                  Of course, one cannot ignore cancer; it must be cut out. doing so would also gut more pertinent books.... how would it affect the HotC, D&C, etc?


                  How valid would a dissected doctrine be? About as effective defensively as Ft Sumter after the end of the multi day bombardment...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by quetzloc View Post
                    the blood covenant doctrine and subsequent reactions (such as the Danites) is a major problem set which the modern LDS church has attempted to move away from. However, it is a historical reality, and if they were to remove the sermons, teachings, and portions of doctrine which discuss it, many segments of their foundational teachings would be left looking like swiss cheese. this forces them to leave the BA teachings in place, but ignore them.

                    Of course, one cannot ignore cancer; it must be cut out. doing so would also gut more pertinent books.... how would it affect the HotC, D&C, etc?


                    How valid would a dissected doctrine be? About as effective defensively as Ft Sumter after the end of the multi day bombardment...
                    But you notice, too, none of the Mormons here renounce this Blood Atonement doctrine as false. I think they believe it.
                    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jamesone5 View Post

                      Gee I wonder what those so-called "high priests" who originally baptized them thought of that?

                      Their so-called authority was not all that authoritative as it seems.

                      I had a couple of experiences in baptizing others as an Elder in the Church----particularity with my own father who joined the Chruch in 1982 or so. As I look back there was no power that I was giving my own dad and it really was very silly in retrospect.

                      But I am Blessed that I did my part in showing my dad the TRUE Christ, shortly before he died.
                      Rededications/reaffirmations happen in the Christian faith as well, but that is a personal decision, not a mandate by the pastor.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by quetzloc View Post

                        Rededications/reaffirmations happen in the Christian faith as well, but that is a personal decision, not a mandate by the pastor.
                        r


                        A personal decision is somehow equated with a Chruch mandate? Your Chruch is the one Chruch who place such importance on a Baptism by the so-called proper authority.

                        I for one was rebaptised when I became a Christian--but it was my decision of the Church I am a Member of.

                        Actually have had 3 baptisms is my life. FYI

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jamesone5 View Post
                          r


                          A personal decision is somehow equated with a Chruch mandate? Your Chruch is the one Chruch who place such importance on a Baptism by the so-called proper authority.

                          I for one was rebaptised when I became a Christian--but it was my decision of the Church I am a Member of.

                          Actually have had 3 baptisms is my life. FYI
                          Just to be clear, you are repeating what I actually said in the quote you referenced from me.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                            But you notice, too, none of the Mormons here renounce this Blood Atonement doctrine as false. I think they believe it.
                            Absolutely, I do notice that, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. However their silence is deafening. That said, if they did renounce it, what then? This then begs the following question: why don't they remove the offensive doctrine from every text, record, speech, etc? Aside from the obvious that it would be spurning whoever taught the false doctrine at the time, which hits multiple major leaders, but it would also leave gaping holes in classic important works. It would be like removing Deuteronomy because some are offended by the laws it contains.


                            I'd also like to know if they believe Jesus lied to the thief on the cross when He said he would be in heaven that day, since thieves can't be saved until their sins are redeemed through works.... that guy wasn't coming off that cross until he died, thus no chance to redeem himself.


                            Spencer Kimball says Jesus lied, since they hadn't repented after works. (for context, read p 160-170...)

                            Spencer Kimball. tMoF, p 166. “Another mistaken idea is that the thief on the cross was forgiven of his sins when the dying Christ answered “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.”(luke 23:43)These men on the cross were thieves. How could the Lord forgive a malefactor? They had broken laws…We may be sure that the Savior’s instructions to the thief on the cross were comparable to his instructions to the woman caught in adultery: “go your way and transform yourself and repent.”

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by quetzloc View Post

                              Just to be clear, you are repeating what I actually said in the quote you referenced from me.
                              What you think I repeated the whole thing verbatim?

                              A statement with a question mark behind it, is a clear giveaway--like this:


                              A personal decision is somehow equated with a Chruch mandate? ---jamesone5
                              You have not told me how you equate a Chruch mandate with a personal decision.

                              Just to be very clear--I will ask you the question again.

                              Comment

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