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The Book of Mormon versus Joseph Smith

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Ivanhoe View Post

    weren't all these men born after 70AD which means they were all in apostacy according to Mormonism, even thou these selections are taken out of context
    When they were born is not an issue. It means that the tradition had existed. They did not invent it themselves. They were repeating and confirming an earlier, well-established tradition. And the fact that so many believed and taught it for such a long time means that the tradition had been well established. If it had been somebody's invention, it would not have been so well-established among so many, and for such a long time.
    zerinus
    I am a Mormon!

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by zerinus View Post

      When they were born is not an issue. It means that the tradition had existed. They did not invent it themselves. They were repeating and confirming an earlier, well-established tradition. And the fact that so many believed and taught it for such a long time means that the tradition had been well established. If it had been somebody's invention, it would not have been so well-established among so many, and for such a long time.
      We have a few such "traditions" that have been very well established...such as atheism, for instance. And did you know? There are still churches that honor Satan, scattered here and there around the world.

      Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

      I'm thinking that God probably knows better than any of us...


      no matter how "edjuhmacated" we thinks we is.....




      God Who was made flesh for me and nailed upon a lonely tree
      What gift can I bring that would suffice to repay such great sacrifice?
      All that I am I lay at Your throne. Make me, Lord, Your very Own.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by The Barrd View Post

        We have a few such "traditions" that have been very well established...such as atheism, for instance. And did you know? There are still churches that honor Satan, scattered here and there around the world.
        You are talking an awful lot of nonsense. We are not talking about atheists and Satanists. We are talking about the early Church Fathers, who were and are revered as faithful Christians, some of whom were martyred for their faith. We are talking about people like Athanasius, the father of Christian orthodoxy; Justin, a martyr for the faith; and Augustine, the darling of Reformed theologians. We are talking about three centuries of early Christian teachings, going as far back as records exist. We are talking about what ALL the early Church Fathers taught, not just one or two isolated individuals.
        zerinus
        I am a Mormon!

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by zerinus View Post

          You are talking an awful lot of nonsense. We are not talking about atheists and Satanists. We are talking about the early Church Fathers, who were and are revered as faithful Christians, some of whom were martyred for their faith. We are talking about people like Athanasius, the father of Christian orthodoxy; Justin, a martyr for the faith; and Augustine, the darling of Reformed theologians. We are talking about three centuries of early Christian teachings, going as far back as records exist. We are talking about what ALL the early Church Fathers taught, not just one or two isolated individuals.
          And I am talking about God.
          There is only ONE God...just ONE.

          A man cannot become a god...never gonna happen, no way, no how.
          It is nothing less than blasphemy to even suppose that a man could ever be a god.

          I tell you and all Mormons this, not because I "hate" you. If that were true, all I would need to do is sit here with my mouth shut...uh...with my fingers off the keyboard...and watch while you damn yourself.
          No, Z...it is not my desire to see you go to hell.
          You need to lose your arrogant attitude, my friend...and understand one very important thing.
          God is God....you are not.

          Now, I have not made a study of these ECFs. I just was never interested enough to bother...sorry.
          I was always a whole lot more interested in Jesus Christ....God Incarnate, Who gave His life on the cross to save me from my own foolishness.
          God Who was made flesh for me and nailed upon a lonely tree
          What gift can I bring that would suffice to repay such great sacrifice?
          All that I am I lay at Your throne. Make me, Lord, Your very Own.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by zerinus View Post

            You are talking an awful lot of nonsense. We are not talking about atheists and Satanists. We are talking about the early Church Fathers, who were and are revered as faithful Christians, some of whom were martyred for their faith. We are talking about people like Athanasius, the father of Christian orthodoxy; Justin, a martyr for the faith; and Augustine, the darling of Reformed theologians. We are talking about three centuries of early Christian teachings, going as far back as records exist. We are talking about what ALL the early Church Fathers taught, not just one or two isolated individuals.
            The ECFs aren't the Bible. All that they wrote must be compared to what the Bible says. Some of what they wrote is dead on with what the Bible says. But sometimes it is not. But it is telling that you must appeal to the ECFs to support your ideas. We just appeal to the Bible.
            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
            “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post

              No comment necessary. Let those who have eyes, see.




              Here is a vast library of Christian writings, by Christian theologians far more educated than you could become in an entire lifetime, that refutes your uneducated opinion:



              http://articulifidei.blogspot.com/20...h-fathers.html
              Umm how about Thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before me? that not good enough? Hmmm????

              We cannot become gods. Who cares about your vast library of uneducated men.

              Or how about Isaiah 43:10

              Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me

              Or how about.........

              Revelation 22:13
              I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


              Revelation 1:8
              I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

              Means the same thing as Isaiah 43:10.......the first God.............and the LAST GOD

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Ivanhoe View Post

                weren't all these men born after 70AD which means they were all in apostacy according to Mormonism, even thou these selections are taken out of context
                Romans 12:14
                Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. So much for your D&C. Read the bible alone.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                  The ECFs aren't the Bible. All that they wrote must be compared to what the Bible says. Some of what they wrote is dead on with what the Bible says. But sometimes it is not.
                  I trust their knowledge of the Bible more than yours.

                  But it is telling that you must appeal to the ECFs to support your ideas. We just appeal to the Bible.
                  I don't. I rely on modern LDS scripture to support the LDS doctrine of deification. The fact that the ECFs also taught it is a conundrum for Christians to resolve. And guess what, they supported their doctrine from the Bible! LOL!
                  zerinus
                  I am a Mormon!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    From LDS.org ....

                    Several biblical passages intimate that humans can become like God. The likeness of humans to God is emphasized in the first chapter of Genesis: “God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. … So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” After Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,” God said they had “become as one of us,”. suggesting that a process of approaching godliness was already underway. Later in the Old Testament, a passage in the book of Psalms declares, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”

                    New Testament passages also point to this doctrine. When Jesus was accused of blasphemy on the grounds that “thou, being a man, makest thyself God,” He responded, echoing Psalms, “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus commanded His disciples to become “perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”7 In turn, the Apostle Peter referred to the Savior’s “exceeding great and precious promises” that we might become “partakers of the divine nature.” The Apostle Paul taught that we are “the offspring of God” and emphasized that as such “we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.” The book of Revelation contains a promise from Jesus Christ that “to him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”


                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by The Barrd View Post
                      And I am talking about God.
                      There is only ONE God...just ONE.


                      A man cannot become a god...never gonna happen, no way, no how.
                      It is nothing less than blasphemy to even suppose that a man could ever be a god.

                      I tell you and all Mormons this, not because I "hate" you. If that were true, all I would need to do is sit here with my mouth shut...uh...with my fingers off the keyboard...and watch while you damn yourself.
                      No, Z...it is not my desire to see you go to hell.
                      You need to lose your arrogant attitude, my friend...and understand one very important thing.
                      God is God....you are not.

                      Now, I have not made a study of these ECFs. I just was never interested enough to bother...sorry.
                      I was always a whole lot more interested in Jesus Christ....God Incarnate, Who gave His life on the cross to save me from my own foolishness.
                      You are correct. Nobody following your theology is ever going to become a god.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                        You are correct. Nobody following your theology is ever going to become a god.
                        So, let me get this straight once and for all....

                        Do Mormons expect to become gods in their own right and rule over their own planets...even perhaps to build new galaxies, new universes? Will their wives also become goddesses?

                        Some Mormon posters tell me that it is all nonsense, and that I should make sure of what Mormons actually do believe before I comment...
                        So, I am asking...do Mormons expect to become gods...and if they do, just how much power do they think that they will have???
                        God Who was made flesh for me and nailed upon a lonely tree
                        What gift can I bring that would suffice to repay such great sacrifice?
                        All that I am I lay at Your throne. Make me, Lord, Your very Own.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                          You are correct. Nobody following your theology is ever going to become a god.
                          They won't become gods following YOURS, either. There is ONLY ONE GOD--no other:

                          (ESV, Is. 43)

                          “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
                          “and My servant whom I have chosen,
                          that you may know and believe Me
                          and understand that I am He.
                          Before me no god was formed,
                          nor shall there be any after Me.

                          11 I, I am the Lord,
                          and besides me there is no savior.
                          12 I declared and saved and proclaimed,
                          when there was no strange god among you;
                          and you are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and I am God.
                          13 Also henceforth I am He;
                          there is none who can deliver from My hand;
                          I work, and who can turn it back?”
                          But it appears that Mormons would rather believe Joseph Smith than the true God of the Bible and what HE actually has stated.
                          "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                          "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                          “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                          "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                          "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                          "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                            You are correct. Nobody following your theology is ever going to become a god.
                            Even Joseph Smith's early Canon taught only ONE GOD exists



                            1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.





                            Book of Moses 1:


                            6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.


                            And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you ... ye shall curse them; And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies (Doctrine and Covenants, 103:24-25)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Ivanhoe View Post

                              Even Joseph Smith's early Canon taught only ONE GOD exists



                              1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.





                              Book of Moses 1:


                              6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

                              Mormons seem to conveniently forget this...they must have to jump through all sorts of apologetic hoops to try to reconcile their more modern teachings with what the BoM has in it. Supposedly, it teaches the "fullness of the Gospel" yet the most important aspect of BoM theology of salvation--exaltation and the Temple ordinances--is totally absent from the BoM. So HOW can it be said that it teaches the "fullness of the Gospel"--even for what passes as "Gospel" in Mormonism today?
                              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                              “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                              "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                              "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                                They won't become gods following YOURS, either. There is ONLY ONE GOD--no other:



                                But it appears that Mormons would rather believe Joseph Smith than the true God of the Bible and what HE actually has stated.
                                In Mormonism Joseph Smith is the arbitrator , yardstick and paramount authority for TRUTH well above Scripture and the Words of Jesus
                                And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you ... ye shall curse them; And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies (Doctrine and Covenants, 103:24-25)

                                Comment

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