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Childish Video on the BoM

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  • Childish Video on the BoM

    In hushed tones, a man and woman and pseudo-scholars pretend to validate "Lehi's Journey." An really easily debunked video, titled Book of Mormon Documentary - Lehi's Journey of Faith
    has been posted here by a very TBM Mormon, and you can find it on Youtube. Unless you have graduated from High School Geography class, I wouldn't bother looking at it. If you want to have a good laugh, you might want to. It's totally childish. I agree with this comment found on Youtube in regard to this video:

    "I watched fifty minutes and it was nothing but baseless assertions and not a shred of evidence."

    And that comment is exactly right. People who believe in hobbits might be impressed with this video, but those of us who have some academic background can see how it is nothing but a classic piece of Mormon mythology. Of course, we have the "NHM" stones classified as a bullseye for Joey Smith, but anyone who researches further knows that the stones identify a tribe not a town. There was an Ottoman town founded with a name similar to Nahom, but it had nothing to do with anything these refugees from Israel would have found in 600 BC. Futhermore, since I believe that the Book of Mormon was created by a scholar named Spalding, a minister, there is no doubt that Spalding had access to maps printed in the 19th century and readily available to those who actually went to the library. Here this is verified:

    "Evidence for an actual place called something like Nahom in Yemen/Southern Arabia appears in European maps from the mid-eighteenth century onwards, so that, unlike the altar inscriptions, these were clearly known in Smith’s lifetime. A form of NHM (Nehhm) shows up for instance in the travel narrative and maps of Carsten Niebuhr, of the 1761 Danish Arabia Expedition, marking a location in Yemen. An English translation of his writings appeared in 1792, and copies were available in US libraries in the early nineteenth century. This Niebuhr parallel is noted by. an impeccably Mormon source.Critics, meanwhile, point to the work’s presence in US libraries at the relevant time. Other European maps also show a related place-name in the area.

    On the one hand, this fact confirms the existence of Nahom as a place, although only in modern times, not ancient. (There is that irritating little matter of the two thousand-plus year gap between the “Nihmites,” wherever they lived, and the Ottoman-era settlement of Nahom). For the apologist cause, though, this is also utterly damning. The map evidence makes it virtually certain that Smith encountered and appropriated such a reference, and added the name as local color in the Book of Mormon.

    Some European maps certainly circulated in the US, and the ones we know about are presumably the tip of a substantial iceberg. I have not tried to survey of all the derivative British, French and US maps of Arabia and the Middle East that would have been available in the north-eastern US at this time, to check whether they included a NHM name in these parts of Arabia. Following the US involvement against North African states in the early nineteenth century, together with Napoleon’s wars in the Middle East, I would assume that publishers and mapmakers would produce works to respond to public demand and curiosity.

    So might Joseph Smith have looked at a map in a bookstore, been given one by a friend, seen one in a neighbor’s house, discussed one with a traveler, or even bought one? After all, there is one thing we know for certain about the man, which is that he had a lifelong fascination with the “Oriental,” with Hebrew, with Egypt, with hieroglyphics, with his “Reformed Egyptian.” He would have sought out books and maps by any means possible …. No, no, I’m sorry to suggest anything so far-fetched. It’s far more likely, is it not, that he was visited by an angel, and discovered gold plates filled with total bogus misinformation in everything they say about the Americas, but with one vaguely plausible site in Arabia. Ockham’s Razor would demand that.

    And yes, I’m joking."

    source (for those who are unable to understand citations, please let me know): The Nahom Follies

    JUNE 14, 2015 By Philip Jenkins
    Patheos

    So, we have an Ottoman Empire era town called Nahom, probably named after the Nihimites who occupied the area, and this town was obviously not there during old Lehi's journey. The Ottoman Empire, dear Mormons, didn't exist at that time. Look it up. However, someone looking at a map in the nineteenth century, especially Spalding who was writing his tale, might have used this Ottoman Empire era town to give his work some geographical documentation. That to me is the most probable explanation, and implicates Spalding in the creation of that text.

    In any case, I wonder how the Mormon supposed "archaeologist" is dating rock altars? Rocks can't possibly be dated to 600 BC since they existed way before Lehi's time. What archaeological tests were used to prove the claim that these altars date to 600 BC? They might very well have been built in 500 BC, right? I think it's an outright lie or fabrication by Mormons who desperately want to believe the BoM to claim these altars date to when the fictitious Lehi supposedly passed by! So, I'm calling out the Mormons - what scientific tests have been used to date these altars to 600 BC, and by what rights do Mormon "scholars" make a claim for the age of those altars? Just empty claims as far as I'm concerned and can be racked up to the rest of the pseudo-archaeology Mormons on CARM post here.
    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

  • #2
    If Joseph’s Book of Mormon hinges on Nahom, wouldnt he have mentioned how cool it was that this site was there, and on a map?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
      In hushed tones, a man and woman and pseudo-scholars pretend to validate "Lehi's Journey." An really easily debunked video, titled Book of Mormon Documentary - Lehi's Journey of Faith
      has been posted here by a very TBM Mormon, and you can find it on Youtube. Unless you have graduated from High School Geography class, I wouldn't bother looking at it. If you want to have a good laugh, you might want to. It's totally childish. I agree with this comment found on Youtube in regard to this video:

      "I watched fifty minutes and it was nothing but baseless assertions and not a shred of evidence."

      And that comment is exactly right. People who believe in hobbits might be impressed with this video, but those of us who have some academic background can see how it is nothing but a classic piece of Mormon mythology. Of course, we have the "NHM" stones classified as a bullseye for Joey Smith, but anyone who researches further knows that the stones identify a tribe not a town. There was an Ottoman town founded with a name similar to Nahom, but it had nothing to do with anything these refugees from Israel would have found in 600 BC. Futhermore, since I believe that the Book of Mormon was created by a scholar named Spalding, a minister, there is no doubt that Spalding had access to maps printed in the 19th century and readily available to those who actually went to the library. Here this is verified:

      "Evidence for an actual place called something like Nahom in Yemen/Southern Arabia appears in European maps from the mid-eighteenth century onwards, so that, unlike the altar inscriptions, these were clearly known in Smith’s lifetime. A form of NHM (Nehhm) shows up for instance in the travel narrative and maps of Carsten Niebuhr, of the 1761 Danish Arabia Expedition, marking a location in Yemen. An English translation of his writings appeared in 1792, and copies were available in US libraries in the early nineteenth century. This Niebuhr parallel is noted by. an impeccably Mormon source.Critics, meanwhile, point to the work’s presence in US libraries at the relevant time. Other European maps also show a related place-name in the area.

      On the one hand, this fact confirms the existence of Nahom as a place, although only in modern times, not ancient. (There is that irritating little matter of the two thousand-plus year gap between the “Nihmites,” wherever they lived, and the Ottoman-era settlement of Nahom). For the apologist cause, though, this is also utterly damning. The map evidence makes it virtually certain that Smith encountered and appropriated such a reference, and added the name as local color in the Book of Mormon.

      Some European maps certainly circulated in the US, and the ones we know about are presumably the tip of a substantial iceberg. I have not tried to survey of all the derivative British, French and US maps of Arabia and the Middle East that would have been available in the north-eastern US at this time, to check whether they included a NHM name in these parts of Arabia. Following the US involvement against North African states in the early nineteenth century, together with Napoleon’s wars in the Middle East, I would assume that publishers and mapmakers would produce works to respond to public demand and curiosity.

      So might Joseph Smith have looked at a map in a bookstore, been given one by a friend, seen one in a neighbor’s house, discussed one with a traveler, or even bought one? After all, there is one thing we know for certain about the man, which is that he had a lifelong fascination with the “Oriental,” with Hebrew, with Egypt, with hieroglyphics, with his “Reformed Egyptian.” He would have sought out books and maps by any means possible …. No, no, I’m sorry to suggest anything so far-fetched. It’s far more likely, is it not, that he was visited by an angel, and discovered gold plates filled with total bogus misinformation in everything they say about the Americas, but with one vaguely plausible site in Arabia. Ockham’s Razor would demand that.

      And yes, I’m joking."

      source (for those who are unable to understand citations, please let me know): The Nahom Follies

      JUNE 14, 2015 By Philip Jenkins
      Patheos

      So, we have an Ottoman Empire era town called Nahom, probably named after the Nihimites who occupied the area, and this town was obviously not there during old Lehi's journey. The Ottoman Empire, dear Mormons, didn't exist at that time. Look it up. However, someone looking at a map in the nineteenth century, especially Spalding who was writing his tale, might have used this Ottoman Empire era town to give his work some geographical documentation. That to me is the most probable explanation, and implicates Spalding in the creation of that text.

      In any case, I wonder how the Mormon supposed "archaeologist" is dating rock altars? Rocks can't possibly be dated to 600 BC since they existed way before Lehi's time. What archaeological tests were used to prove the claim that these altars date to 600 BC? They might very well have been built in 500 BC, right? I think it's an outright lie or fabrication by Mormons who desperately want to believe the BoM to claim these altars date to when the fictitious Lehi supposedly passed by! So, I'm calling out the Mormons - what scientific tests have been used to date these altars to 600 BC, and by what rights do Mormon "scholars" make a claim for the age of those altars? Just empty claims as far as I'm concerned and can be racked up to the rest of the pseudo-archaeology Mormons on CARM post here.
      You have to chuckle... CA says: "but those of us who have some academic background can see how it is nothing but a classic piece of Mormon mythology.” and then completely ignores on going research such as being aided by the Lindar system... changing the minds and re-writing history by our wonderful class of academic scholars... oh well, the world seems to be passing them by... folks with any kind of Due diligence (a certain standard of care) look at new evidence with open minds and doubters will continue to be blind even when hard evidence is staring at them right in their face... chuckle...

      Clearly a fallacy is projected by the following:
      So might Joseph Smith have looked at a map in a bookstore, been given one by a friend, seen one in a neighbor’s house, discussed one with a traveler, or even bought one? After all, there is one thing we know for certain about the man, which is that he had a lifelong fascination with the “Oriental,” with Hebrew, with Egypt, with hieroglyphics, with his “Reformed Egyptian.” He would have sought out books and maps by any means possible …. No, no, I’m sorry to suggest anything so far-fetched. It’s far more likely, is it not, that he was visited by an angel, and discovered gold plates filled with total bogus misinformation in everything they say about the Americas, but with one vaguely plausible site in Arabia. Ockham’s Razor would demand that.
      Either JS was a dedicated researcher and student of the most sought after books and maps or he was the founder and means by which God used him as a instrument in restoring the true church and plan of salvation... as little time as he had for being the Prophet of the Restored Church of Jesus Christ and a father and husband, CA seems to think he spent most of his time doing research... chuckle again... that assertion by CA is nothing more then hyperbole, she is shooting in the dark for reasons that she basically misunderstands the true history or the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the beginning stages of the restoration and Church.... what JS did is now being revealed as more evidence of historical facts and evidence along with a story line of how, what and why we have the Book of Mormon, a second witness that Jesus is the Christ... more people are converted from just reading the Book of Mormon.... historical evidence is now correlating both the details as described in the Book of Mormon and the story itself.... amazing and hugely important for those who are honest in heart and sincerely want to ask God the Father if these thing are not true.... His promise in the Book of Mormon has converted millions...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Ralf View Post

        You have to chuckle... CA says: "but those of us who have some academic background can see how it is nothing but a classic piece of Mormon mythology.” and then completely ignores on going research such as being aided by the Lindar system... changing the minds and re-writing history by our wonderful class of academic scholars... oh well, the world seems to be passing them by... folks with any kind of Due diligence (a certain standard of care) look at new evidence with open minds and doubters will continue to be blind even when hard evidence is staring at them right in their face... chuckle...

        Clearly a fallacy is projected by the following:

        Either JS was a dedicated researcher and student of the most sought after books and maps or he was the founder and means by which God used him as a instrument in restoring the true church and plan of salvation... as little time as he had for being the Prophet of the Restored Church of Jesus Christ and a father and husband, CA seems to think he spent most of his time doing research... chuckle again... that assertion by CA is nothing more then hyperbole, she is shooting in the dark for reasons that she basically misunderstands the true history or the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the beginning stages of the restoration and Church.... what JS did is now being revealed as more evidence of historical facts and evidence along with a story line of how, what and why we have the Book of Mormon, a second witness that Jesus is the Christ... more people are converted from just reading the Book of Mormon.... historical evidence is now correlating both the details as described in the Book of Mormon and the story itself.... amazing and hugely important for those who are honest in heart and sincerely want to ask God the Father if these thing are not true.... His promise in the Book of Mormon has converted millions...
        Joseph Smith said he was studying other languages. Looks like he had time for a lot of things, including a lot of women.
        ~ There is life after mormonism, and it's good! Just stay close to Christ.
        ~ You can't follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.
        ~ "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Magdalena View Post

          Joseph Smith said he was studying other languages. Looks like he had time for a lot of things, including a lot of women.
          And you don’t have to worry anymore Mag... you're out of it and moved on, Right? or coming here to maybe keep one foot in the loop, chuckle..

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Ralf View Post

            And you don’t have to worry anymore Mag... you're out of it and moved on, Right? or coming here to maybe keep one foot in the loop, chuckle..
            You'd like it if I stopped telling the truth about mormonism. Not going to happen. No matter how many insults you throw at me.
            ~ There is life after mormonism, and it's good! Just stay close to Christ.
            ~ You can't follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.
            ~ "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

            Comment


            • #7
              In my experience, all childish videos on the BOM have been churned out by antis.
              ...whenever a person's religious conversation dwells... on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition-C.S. Lewis

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Magdalena View Post

                You'd like it if I stopped telling the truth about mormonism. Not going to happen. No matter how many insults you throw at me.
                When CARM posters start telling the truth will be the day they will have to admit they were wrong all the time about so many of their talking points... but the talking points will never cease for even the same points were used against Christ Himself... hmmm

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
                  In hushed tones, a man and woman and pseudo-scholars pretend to validate "Lehi's Journey." An really easily debunked video, titled Book of Mormon Documentary - Lehi's Journey of Faith
                  has been posted here by a very TBM Mormon, and you can find it on Youtube. Unless you have graduated from High School Geography class, I wouldn't bother looking at it. If you want to have a good laugh, you might want to. It's totally childish. I agree with this comment found on Youtube in regard to this video:

                  "I watched fifty minutes and it was nothing but baseless assertions and not a shred of evidence."

                  And that comment is exactly right. People who believe in hobbits might be impressed with this video, but those of us who have some academic background can see how it is nothing but a classic piece of Mormon mythology. Of course, we have the "NHM" stones classified as a bullseye for Joey Smith, but anyone who researches further knows that the stones identify a tribe not a town. There was an Ottoman town founded with a name similar to Nahom, but it had nothing to do with anything these refugees from Israel would have found in 600 BC. Futhermore, since I believe that the Book of Mormon was created by a scholar named Spalding, a minister, there is no doubt that Spalding had access to maps printed in the 19th century and readily available to those who actually went to the library. Here this is verified:

                  "Evidence for an actual place called something like Nahom in Yemen/Southern Arabia appears in European maps from the mid-eighteenth century onwards, so that, unlike the altar inscriptions, these were clearly known in Smith’s lifetime. A form of NHM (Nehhm) shows up for instance in the travel narrative and maps of Carsten Niebuhr, of the 1761 Danish Arabia Expedition, marking a location in Yemen. An English translation of his writings appeared in 1792, and copies were available in US libraries in the early nineteenth century. This Niebuhr parallel is noted by. an impeccably Mormon source.Critics, meanwhile, point to the work’s presence in US libraries at the relevant time. Other European maps also show a related place-name in the area.

                  On the one hand, this fact confirms the existence of Nahom as a place, although only in modern times, not ancient. (There is that irritating little matter of the two thousand-plus year gap between the “Nihmites,” wherever they lived, and the Ottoman-era settlement of Nahom). For the apologist cause, though, this is also utterly damning. The map evidence makes it virtually certain that Smith encountered and appropriated such a reference, and added the name as local color in the Book of Mormon.

                  Some European maps certainly circulated in the US, and the ones we know about are presumably the tip of a substantial iceberg. I have not tried to survey of all the derivative British, French and US maps of Arabia and the Middle East that would have been available in the north-eastern US at this time, to check whether they included a NHM name in these parts of Arabia. Following the US involvement against North African states in the early nineteenth century, together with Napoleon’s wars in the Middle East, I would assume that publishers and mapmakers would produce works to respond to public demand and curiosity.

                  So might Joseph Smith have looked at a map in a bookstore, been given one by a friend, seen one in a neighbor’s house, discussed one with a traveler, or even bought one? After all, there is one thing we know for certain about the man, which is that he had a lifelong fascination with the “Oriental,” with Hebrew, with Egypt, with hieroglyphics, with his “Reformed Egyptian.” He would have sought out books and maps by any means possible …. No, no, I’m sorry to suggest anything so far-fetched. It’s far more likely, is it not, that he was visited by an angel, and discovered gold plates filled with total bogus misinformation in everything they say about the Americas, but with one vaguely plausible site in Arabia. Ockham’s Razor would demand that.

                  And yes, I’m joking."

                  source (for those who are unable to understand citations, please let me know): The Nahom Follies

                  JUNE 14, 2015 By Philip Jenkins
                  Patheos

                  So, we have an Ottoman Empire era town called Nahom, probably named after the Nihimites who occupied the area, and this town was obviously not there during old Lehi's journey. The Ottoman Empire, dear Mormons, didn't exist at that time. Look it up. However, someone looking at a map in the nineteenth century, especially Spalding who was writing his tale, might have used this Ottoman Empire era town to give his work some geographical documentation. That to me is the most probable explanation, and implicates Spalding in the creation of that text.

                  In any case, I wonder how the Mormon supposed "archaeologist" is dating rock altars? Rocks can't possibly be dated to 600 BC since they existed way before Lehi's time. What archaeological tests were used to prove the claim that these altars date to 600 BC? They might very well have been built in 500 BC, right? I think it's an outright lie or fabrication by Mormons who desperately want to believe the BoM to claim these altars date to when the fictitious Lehi supposedly passed by! So, I'm calling out the Mormons - what scientific tests have been used to date these altars to 600 BC, and by what rights do Mormon "scholars" make a claim for the age of those altars? Just empty claims as far as I'm concerned and can be racked up to the rest of the pseudo-archaeology Mormons on CARM post here.
                  It’s fine if the altars date to 500 BC, it doesn’t change the fact that the place was called NHM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
                    I

                    Quoted from source she uses...

                    "I watched fifty minutes and it was nothing but baseless assertions and not a shred of evidence."
                    And that comment is exactly right. People who believe in hobbits might be impressed with this video, but those of us who have some academic background can see how it is nothing but a classic piece of Mormon mythology. Of course, we have the "NHM" stones classified as a bullseye for Joey Smith, but anyone who researches further knows that the stones identify a tribe not a town. There was an Ottoman town founded with a name similar to Nahom, but it had nothing to do with anything these refugees from Israel would have found in 600 BC. Futhermore, since I believe that the Book of Mormon was created by a scholar named Spalding, a minister, there is no doubt that Spalding had access to maps printed in the 19th century and readily available to those who actually went to the library. Here this is verified:

                    .
                    But there is much more.In the first place, the name Nihm is unique. Unlike many other place names, it is not found anywhere else in Arabia. The name seems to have its origins in the cutting and dressing of stone, a fact that may be significant on several counts, not least in view of the fact that Bi’Athtar clearly had the means to present three altars cut from limestone.


                    Check it our CA... https://ldsmag.com/article-1-14168/

                    The Semitic roots of the name have multiple, significant, links to Nephi’s account, linking it to mourning, hunger, sorrow and complaining. These links in the etymology of the name carry strong echoes of what happened after Ishmael’s death:

                    And it came to pass that the daughters of Ishmael did mourn exceedingly, because of the loss of their father, and because of their afflictions in the wilderness; and they did murmur against my father, because he had brought them out of the land of Jerusalem, saying: Our father is dead; yea, and we have wandered much in the wilderness, and we have suffered much affliction, hunger, thirst, and fatigue; and after all these sufferings we must perish in the wilderness with hunger. (1 Nephi 16: 35)

                    Since Nahom was a burial place, is it just coincidence that the largest burial site on the Arabian peninsula, the vast Alam and Ruwaik necropolis, lies here in the desert of Nihm? And there is still more.

                    I Nephi 17:1 describes that when the family group resumed their journey, they traveled ” nearly eastwards from that time forth.” Having now left the incense trade routes, this was the most difficult stage of the entire journey. It ended in the remarkably fertile place that they called “Bountiful.” We now know that if one travels “eastwards” from the Nihm region in Yemen, it leads some 500 miles across the most desolate part of Yemen, the southern edge of the great Empty Quarter desert. Even today, this region has no water sources, no settlements and no roads.

                    Most significantly, traveling eastwards of Nihm brings one eventually to the Dhofar coast of Oman, which we now know is the only fertile area in thousands of miles of Arabian coastline. These facts were not known in 1830 when the Book of Mormon was published; in fact, they were not known until just 3 decades ago. How did Joseph Smith get so many specifics right?

                    The stunning conjunction of all these interlinking facts probably has no parallel. Its significance can be most clearly seen in two ways: how it has been viewed by LDS historians and scholars, and in the attempts of anti-Mormon and cultural-Mormon critics to dismiss it all as coincidence.

                    The significance of the altar discoveries:

                    The discovery of the second altar was brought to the attention of the general church membership in a news release November 17, 2000 in the BYU daily newspaper The Daily Universe and on the official LDS Church website as “News of the Church.” A photograph of the second altar accompanied a short article published in the news section of the February 2001 ENSIGN magazine. Soon after, the altar find was mentioned in a talk in the April 2001 General Conference.

                    In 2002, the most significant book in many years dealing with the role of the Book of Mormon in the establishment of the church was published by Oxford University Press. LDS historian Terryl Given’s book By the Hand of Mormon: The American Scripture that Launched a New World Religion gave the following assessments (emphasis added) of the altar discoveries:

                    Found in the very area where Nephi’s record locates Nahom, these altars may thus be said to constitute the first actual archaeological evidence for the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

                    The most impressive find to date corroborating Book of Mormon historicity, this is one of two known altars with inscriptions referring to the tribe of NHM, corresponding to the place name referred to by Nephi (“Nahom”) when his party passed through what would become modern-day Yemen.

                    Though they are Old World artifacts, they do represent the first confirmation of a Book of Mormon site and place-name lost to the modern age.

                    Another landmark publication was Grant Hardy’s The Book of Mormon: A Reader’s Edition, published in 2005 by the University of Illinois. This work reformatted the scriptural text for improved readability and added commentary. A simple map situating Old World Book of Mormon places in the modern world commented (emphasis added):

                    Perhaps the most direct archaeological confirmation of anything in the Book of Mormon is the discovery in the early 1990s of evidence for an ancient people named Nihm in the approximate area where Lehi’s family came upon “Nahom.“

                    In a conference sponsored by the Library of Congress and held in Washington DC on May 6-7, 2005 in recognition of the bicentennial of Joseph Smith’s birth, the altar discovery as a tangible confirmation of the Book of Mormon “Nahom” formed part of two presentations. Likewise, in his definitive 2005 biography of Mormonism’s founding prophet, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, historian Richard L. Bushman mentions the discovery of “Nhm” among the discoveries that offer credence to the Book of Mormon account.

                    Unsurprisingly, the response to this discovery by anti-Mormon and cultural-Mormon critics has been quite different. Although several years have now passed, most have not responded to the development at all, moving on to attack other aspects. But, of those who have responded, all have failed so far to engage with the facts; none have yet offered a coherent response.1

                    Nephi implied that a place in southern Arabia named Nahom already existed in his day; three chiseled blocks of stone from a tribe whose name may have originated from the cutting and shaping of stone now provide incontrovertible evidence that, in fact, it did.

                    Comment

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