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Totally Debunking the NHM Altars as proving "Nahom"

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  • Totally Debunking the NHM Altars as proving "Nahom"

    On the video posted by the TBM that I've referenced here and commented on claimed that the stone altars that prove that Nahom existed in Lehi's time, were identified as dating from 600 BC. So folks, isn't that convenient. Just the era that the fictional Lehi supposedly dragged his family through a waterless desert and arrived at a place supposedly called NAHOM.

    While there was a town in hat aread identified as Nahom which existed in the era of the Ottoman Empire, the town's name doesn't coincide at all with the town mentioned in the BoM (Nahom) during Lehi's journey. Unless Mormons want to contend that the Ottoman Empire existed before Mohammed!

    However, if one reads this article by BYU, and deletes the obvious propaganda, we find the following:

    First off there were three, not one, altars discovered with the following inscription:

    (1) B-> t t r / b n/ ∞ w d m / b n / N w > m / N h m y (2) n / h q [n y / ]< l m q h / F r > t / b- (3) > t t r / w-b- / < l m q h / w-b- / D t - H m y m / w-b- (4) Y d > -< l / w-b- / M > d k r b. Translation (1) Bi>athar son of Sawdum, son of Naw>um, the Nihmite, (2) has dedi[cated] (to) Ilmaqah (the person) Fari>at. By (3) >Athtar, and by Ilmaqah, and by Dhat-Himyam, and by (4) Yada>-il, and by Ma>adi-karib.

    What we find on the altars is the fact that Bathar who was the son of Nawum the NIHIMITE (a tribe inhabiting the area) erected these altars dedicated to certain individuals or gods I suppose. Notice, the inscription does not say: THIS IS NAHOM. Nope, nothing at all. Nahom didn't exist until the time of the Ottoman Empire, and was probably an area named after the Nihimite tribe. And guess what, this is proven by the fact that 19th century era maps, available to Joseph Smith, not to mention Spalding (the real author of the BoM) were readily available to anybody going to a library: "Evidence for an actual place called something like Nahom in Yemen/Southern Arabia appears in European maps from the mid-eighteenth century onwards, so that, unlike the altar inscriptions, these were clearly known in Smith’s lifetime. A form of NHM (Nehhm) shows up for instance in the travel narrative and maps of Carsten Niebuhr, of the 1761 Danish Arabia Expedition, marking a location in Yemen. An English translation of his writings appeared in 1792, and copies were available in US libraries in the early nineteenth century. This Niebuhr parallel is noted by an impeccably Mormon source..Critics, meanwhile, point to the work’s presence in US libraries at the relevant time. Other European mapss also show a related place-name in the area.

    On the one hand, this fact confirms the existence of Nahom as a place, although only in modern times, not ancient. (There is that irritating little matter of the two thousand-plus year gap between the “Nihmites,” wherever they lived, and the Ottoman-era settlement of Nahom). For the apologist cause, though, this is also utterly damning. The map evidence makes it virtually certain that Smith encountered and appropriated such a reference, and added the name as local color in the Book of Mormon."

    source: The Nahom Follies
    JUNE 14, 2015 BY Philip Jenkins
    Patheos site

    (if certain Mormons don't understand this citation, please contact me.)

    Now the BYU article indicates that the altars date from 630 to 580 BC. So, we see that Lehi's mystical journey through waterless, stony deserts, with a family and pack animals, and what not (an impossibility in itself) about 30 years before these altars even existed.

    You can access the BYU article here (for those unfamiliar with links, please contact me): https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/...9&context=jbms The dating is based on the inscription and the rulers named. No carbon dating, of course.

    So facts: The altars were erected AFTER Lehi's fictional journey and the burial of Ishmael. Joey Smith comes along in the 19th century, sees the name Nahom, an Ottoman era town or village, identified on a map in a library and uses it in his fictional book (or, more likely, Solomon Spalding, who had access to 19th century maps, indicates that there is a place in Southern Arabia, called NAHOM, includes that name in his manuscript which was later stolen from the print shop by the illustrious Sidney Rigdon, apostate Christian, and Joey copied that into his book).

    The altars do not reflect anything about a village called Nahom, but indicate the one who erected them was the son of a Nihimite. Got that? This is not brain surgery. Later, the Ottoman Empire, after the birth of Mohammed, arose and ruled a vast empire including the Nihimite area. A village named Nahom was included in the area, most likely named for the Nihimites whose land it was prior to its inclusion in the Muslim empire. This Nahom was cited in 19th century maps, and there you go: it ended up in the Book of Mormon, most likely via Spalding, because Joey the Liar wasn't much of a researcher and was known for being a very lazy occultist.

    So, here's the deal: NHM on the stone altar refers to the Nihimites. The Mormons speculate that it really is a reference to Nahom. There is absolutely no proof of that, and the word "Nahom" appears no place on the altars. The village of "Nahom", however, existed during the Ottoman Empire's rule, and most likely refers to the Nihimite tribe. That name, Nahom, ends up on 18th and 19th century maps and Smith (or more likely Solomon Spalding) uses the word "Nahom" in the Book of Mormon. Problem solved, and furthermore, adds a lot more credence to the belief that Spalding is the true source of the Book of Mormon. Have a nice day!
    Last edited by Catherine Aurelia; 09-11-18, 01:46 PM.
    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

  • #2
    My where are all the experts? Maybe if Mormon scientists use LIDAR they'll find the body of Ishmael stashed under a stone!
    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
      On the video posted by the TBM that I've referenced here and commented on claimed that the stone altars that prove that Nahom existed in Lehi's time, were identified as dating from 600 BC. So folks, isn't that convenient. Just the era that the fictional Lehi supposedly dragged his family through a waterless desert and arrived at a place supposedly called NAHOM.

      While there was a town in that area identified as Nahom which existed in the era of the Ottoman Empire, the town's name doesn't coincide at all with the town mentioned in the BoM (Nahom) during Lehi's journey. Unless Mormons want to contend that the Ottoman Empire existed before Mohammed!

      However, if one reads this article by BYU, and deletes the obvious propaganda, we find the following:

      First off there were three, not one, altars discovered with the following inscription:

      (1) B-> t t r / b n/ ∞ w d m / b n / N w > m / N h m y (2) n / h q [n y / ]< l m q h / F r > t / b- (3) > t t r / w-b- / < l m q h / w-b- / D t - H m y m / w-b- (4) Y d > -< l / w-b- / M > d k r b. Translation (1) Bi>athar son of Sawdum, son of Naw>um, the Nihmite, (2) has dedi[cated] (to) Ilmaqah (the person) Fari>at. By (3) >Athtar, and by Ilmaqah, and by Dhat-Himyam, and by (4) Yada>-il, and by Ma>adi-karib.

      What we find on the altars is the fact that Bathar who was the son of Nawum the NIHIMITE (a tribe inhabiting the area) erected these altars dedicated to certain individuals or gods I suppose. Notice, the inscription does not say: THIS IS NAHOM. Nope, nothing at all. Nahom didn't exist until the time of the Ottoman Empire, and was probably an area named after the Nihimite tribe. And guess what, this is proven by the fact that 19th century era maps, available to Joseph Smith, not to mention Spalding (the real author of the BoM) were readily available to anybody going to a library: "Evidence for an actual place called something like Nahom in Yemen/Southern Arabia appears in European maps from the mid-eighteenth century onwards, so that, unlike the altar inscriptions, these were clearly known in Smith’s lifetime. A form of NHM (Nehhm) shows up for instance in the travel narrative and maps of Carsten Niebuhr, of the 1761 Danish Arabia Expedition, marking a location in Yemen. An English translation of his writings appeared in 1792, and copies were available in US libraries in the early nineteenth century. This Niebuhr parallel is noted by an impeccably Mormon source..Critics, meanwhile, point to the work’s presence in US libraries at the relevant time. Other European mapss also show a related place-name in the area.

      On the one hand, this fact confirms the existence of Nahom as a place, although only in modern times, not ancient. (There is that irritating little matter of the two thousand-plus year gap between the “Nihmites,” wherever they lived, and the Ottoman-era settlement of Nahom). For the apologist cause, though, this is also utterly damning. The map evidence makes it virtually certain that Smith encountered and appropriated such a reference, and added the name as local color in the Book of Mormon."

      source: The Nahom Follies
      JUNE 14, 2015 BY Philip Jenkins
      Patheos site

      (if certain Mormons don't understand this citation, please contact me.)

      Now the BYU article indicates that the altars date from 630 to 580 BC. So, we see that Lehi's mystical journey through waterless, stony deserts, with a family and pack animals, and what not (an impossibility in itself) supposedly occured about 30 years before these altars even existed.

      You can access the BYU article here (for those unfamiliar with links, please contact me): https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/...9&context=jbms The dating is based on the inscription and the rulers named. No carbon dating, of course.

      So facts: The altars were erected AFTER Lehi's fictional journey and the burial of Ishmael. Joey Smith comes along in the 19th century, sees the name Nahom, an Ottoman era town or village, identified on a map in a library and uses it in his fictional book (or, more likely, Solomon Spalding, who had access to 19th century maps, indicates that there is a place in Southern Arabia, called NAHOM, includes that name in his manuscript which was later stolen from the print shop by the illustrious Sidney Rigdon, apostate Christian, and Joey copied that into his book).

      The altars do not reflect anything about a village called Nahom, but indicate the one who erected them was the son of a Nihimite. Got that? This is not brain surgery. Later, the Ottoman Empire, after the birth of Mohammed, arose and ruled a vast empire including the Nihimite area. A village named Nahom was included in the area, most likely named for the Nihimites whose land it was prior to its inclusion in the Muslim empire. This Nahom was cited in 19th century maps, and there you go: it ended up in the Book of Mormon, most likely via Spalding, because Joey the Liar wasn't much of a researcher and was known for being a very lazy occultist.

      So, here's the deal: NHM on the stone altar refers to the Nihimites. The Mormons speculate that it really is a reference to Nahom. There is absolutely no proof of that, and the word "Nahom" appears no place on the altars. The village of "Nahom", however, existed during the Ottoman Empire's rule, and most likely refers to the Nihimite tribe. That name, Nahom, ends up on 18th and 19th century maps and Smith (or more likely Solomon Spalding) uses the word "Nahom" in the Book of Mormon. Problem solved, and furthermore, adds a lot more credence to the belief that Spalding is the true source of the Book of Mormon. Have a nice day!
      I reposted this to correct spelling issues.

      Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
        On the video posted by the TBM that I've referenced here and commented on claimed that the stone altars that prove that Nahom existed in Lehi's time, were identified as dating from 600 BC.
        Yeah, CFR for the quote of that TBM claiming that the stone altars prove that Nahom existed in Lehi's time.


        ...whenever a person's religious conversation dwells... on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition-C.S. Lewis

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
          My where are all the experts? Maybe if Mormon scientists use LIDAR they'll find the body of Ishmael stashed under a stone!
          Itís written NHM. Then whatever vowels someone sounds out.

          Do you really think that Nahom was copied from a Map by Smith?

          When did Joseph ever lecture about Nahom. Why if he knew it was on a Map did he never ever mention it in a sermon as he described Lehi and his family?

          Why wouldn't he mention it as a key stopping point to head east to the coast?

          He didnít mention it because he had no clue about the Middle East geography. Never lectured on it.

          NHM was not a guess, was not a copy.


          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
            Itís written NHM. Then whatever vowels someone sounds out.

            Do you really think that Nahom was copied from a Map by Smith?

            When did Joseph ever lecture about Nahom. Why if he knew it was on a Map did he never ever mention it in a sermon as he described Lehi and his family?

            Why wouldn't he mention it as a key stopping point to head east to the coast?

            He didnít mention it because he had no clue about the Middle East geography. Never lectured on it.

            NHM was not a guess, was not a copy.

            Ditto that... JS would have had to been the best organized writer of fiction in all of our present day fiction writers... at least today we have more information and better means of getting at it..
            but for any extremist to think JS used the name in hopes that someday it would be discovered is just plain silly thinking... JS got it right even though at the time it was not a important part of the story it self... so extremist attack constantly the historical impossibilities and forever will ignore the story line... now we find out that not only the story line is creditable (Lindar system) but that researchers of Lehi’s journey out of Jerusalem were in fact finding evidence that nails down in detail many of the criteria or benchmarks in the Book of Mormon...

            CA is only doing what any doubter does... examine it only from one perspective (viewpoint) that of one who cannot accept that research, technology and discovery which are right now overlapping the negative (dissenting) naysayers...
            A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by CTR-Lloyd View Post
              It’s written NHM. Then whatever vowels someone sounds out.

              No kidding!

              Do you really think that Nahom was copied from a Map by Smith?

              No, I think it was copied from a map by a scholar named Solomon Spalding who orginally wrote the manuscript which Rigdon store from the print shop. I suggest you do some research on the matter and stop relying on the PSEUDO-SCHOLARSHIP (you know, the big LIDAR experts here, etc.) and start doing some fact checking. Have you read the most recent research in the new book, "The Spalding En igma, Investigating the Mysterious Origin of the Book of Mormon, by Cowdery, Vanick and Davis? I have it. I think you owe it to yourself to find out the truth. You can get the book on Amazon. I know one of the authors through FB. It lists all the "coincidences" which add up to proof that Rigdon was a thief, Ollie was a go-between and edited the text that Rigdon had reworked, and Joey was the Snake Oil Salesman that brought the whole thing together. You are basing your salvation on an evil LIE.

              When did Joseph ever lecture about Nahom. Why if he knew it was on a Map did he never ever mention it in a sermon as he described Lehi and his family?

              That's pure bologna. Grasping at proverbial straws there. Joey lectured on being a god, and other assorted Satanic teachings he injected into his "church." Why would he lecture on Nahom? If he even remembered it was in the book he had written? It was Spalding who wrote the manuscript, Joey just signed his name to the revised work. Smith was not a smart person, in fact he was pretty ignorant. But he was "subtle," like the snake, and easily persuaded people who were too lazy to investigate the facts.

              Why wouldn't he mention it as a key stopping point to head east to the coast?

              Why would he? He was copying it from Spalding. Get that through your head, please. In fact, it was Ollie who was doing the actual copying. Joe had nothing to do with the content - except for those places where we find idiotic, stupid accounts of millions being killed in wars and just one guy left. How can Mormons believe such tripe.Fairy tales are more believable.

              He didn’t mention it because he had no clue about the Middle East geography. Never lectured on it.

              You don't get it do you? Spalding knew probably as much as was to be known about the Middle East in the 19th century. Joey made up stuff. A good example is the Nephite reference to "driving snow." Gosh, I had a cabin three miles from the Mexican border for years and snow was a rarity. Certainly never "driving." Be that as it may, once you clear up your thinking processes and begin to see the fact that Rigdon was basically a criminal who didn't give a heck how his wacko doctrines got promoted (by hook or by crook, Rigdon would assert his form of Christianity and use the witch, Joey, to do so) the truth is apparent. Spalding was the author, Rigdon was the thief, Ollie was the editor, and Joey became King over Israel.

              NHM was not a guess, was not a copy.

              How do you know, Lloyd. . Shouldn't you be "choosing the right?" Shouldn't you be investigating and find out the truth for yourself, before you invest the salvation of you and your whole family in what is obviously a 19th century piece of pious fiction (Spalding had written several manuscripts by the way, and the one which the Mormons trumpet about is not the one stolen by Rigdon - learn some facts . NHM is a reference to NIHIMITES, the tribe occupying the area. Nahom was a village in the Ottoman Empire. Go look up Ottoman Empire. The village appeared on 18th and 19th century maps, and even a Mormon scholar admits this. Do your homework. If I'm wrong, you have nothing to fear, right?

              As I see it, Mormons simply rely on the pseduo-facts pumped out by the Mormon bilge-makers. They have to start taking responsibilities for their beliefs instead of just relying on periodic injections of "truth" from pumpkin-seed munching apostles who like discussing gender issues.

              Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ralf View Post

                Ditto that... JS would have had to been the best organized writer of fiction in all of our present day fiction writers... at least today we have more information and better means of getting at it..
                but for any extremist to think JS used the name in hopes that someday it would be discovered is just plain silly thinking... JS got it right even though at the time it was not a important part of the story it self... so extremist attack constantly the historical impossibilities and forever will ignore the story line... now we find out that not only the story line is creditable (Lindar system) but that researchers of Lehiís journey out of Jerusalem were in fact finding evidence that nails down in detail many of the criteria or benchmarks in the Book of Mormon...

                CA is only doing what any doubter does... examine it only from one perspective (viewpoint) that of one who cannot accept that research, technology and discovery which are right now overlapping the negative (dissenting) naysayers...
                And we all know, Ralf, that you have never cracked open a book about Rigdon and how he factored into the theft of the Spalding manuscript, right? Here is a one-page document that you can read which summarizes the latest scholarship which now rejects the Mormon-tooted position that the Spalding theory is dead. No, it's alive and well, and scholarship is not taking another look, not just dismissing affidavits of those who were there........and you were not there Ralf, so you know nothing more than what the cult's propaganda specialists feed the flock. Read this:

                http://www.mormonthink.com/mormonstudieshistory.htm

                Perhaps if you apply LIDAR to the Palmyra area you can find the golden plates the "angel" Moroni was shuffling back and forth between planet earth and Kolob!
                Last edited by Mod10; 09-12-18, 10:27 AM. Reason: alert: no violation, since Mormon poster brought up fiction writer
                Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                  And we all know, Ralf, that you have never cracked open a book about Rigdon and how he factored into the theft of the Spalding manuscript, right? Here is a one-page document that you can read which summarizes the latest scholarship which now rejects the Mormon-tooted position that the Spalding theory is dead. No, it's alive and well, and scholarship is not taking another look, not just dismissing affidavits of those who were there........and you were not there Ralf, so you know nothing more than what the cult's propaganda specialists feed the flock. Read this:

                  http://www.mormonthink.com/mormonstudieshistory.htm


                  Perhaps if you apply LIDAR to the Palmyra area you can find the golden plates the "angel" Moroni was shuffling back and forth between planet earth and Kolob!
                  Is that really necessary CA... mocking us? You claim to have read the BOM... do you remember the story of the spacious building and those entering therein as being mockers and ridiculers of those who found the tree of life.... well that dream or vision pretty much points out what is happening today and in our time....
                  A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ralf View Post

                    Is that really necessary CA... mocking us? You claim to have read the BOM... do you remember the story of the spacious building and those entering therein as being mockers and ridiculers of those who found the tree of life.... well that dream or vision pretty much points out what is happening today and in our time....
                    And Mormons don't mock by calling Christianity a religion hatched on the Borders of Hell and kicked to the earth? Boy, Mormons can dish it out, but they sure can't take it, can they? Remember this little episode Ralf? Did you ever speak out against this Mormon missionary?:

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaKGdFEpbqw

                    Exploiting the obvious errors in Mormonism is not mockery but teaching by pointing out the ludicrous elements of that cult. People will remember that.
                    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      And further regarding mockery, are you newer converts to the Mormon cult aware that the Temple Ritual used to mock Christian pastors as being in the employ of Satan? And a Mormon complains about Moroni swiping the plates and taking them to Kolob?

                      See this examiniation of the temple ritual and mockery: http://packham.n4m.org/temples.htm
                      Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
                        And Mormons don't mock by calling Christianity a religion hatched on the Borders of Hell and kicked to the earth? ]
                        Exactly HOW MANY Mormons (plural) have called Christianity that?

                        This is another CFR. ....
                        ...whenever a person's religious conversation dwells... on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition-C.S. Lewis

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
                          And further regarding mockery, are you newer converts to the Mormon cult aware that the Temple Ritual used to mock Christian pastors as being in the employ of Satan? And a Mormon complains about Moroni swiping the plates and taking them to Kolob?

                          See this examiniation of the temple ritual and mockery: http://packham.n4m.org/temples.htm
                          The same Pacham that did this? hilarious...

                          ]Okay, lets go over this againMay 1, 2012 by An inquiry came to FAIRAsk the Apologist service this morning, asking for help with the following claim on the Wikipedia article_and_the_Book_of_Mormon Hebrew_names"]Linguistics and the Book of MormonRichard Packham has pointed out that several Biblical Hebrew names, including Aaron, Ephraim, and Levi are listed as Jaredites in the Book of Ether. He argues that these are anachronisms, since the Jaredites are supposed to have originated from the time of the Tower of Babel, and did not speak Hebrew.
                          [Perennial ex-Mormon gadfly Richard Packham apparently fails to understand that the Book of Mormon is a translation, and translations render ancient words including names into modern forms that did'nt exist at the time.

                          For example, in the New Testament, there are several individuals named James including an apostle and a bishop of Jerusalem. However, there was no name James; in Greek during the first century A.D.; that word is a late-twelfth century Middle English form of the late Latin Jacomus, which itself derives from old Latin Jacobus. All of these are translations of the Koine Greek (Iakobos), which is a Greek version of the Hebrew, which itself is typically rendered in English as Jacob.

                          So Packham could also argue erroneously that the presence of in the New Testament is an anachronism, since its Greek-speaking authors did not know Middle English.

                          When Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, he naturally would have rendered ancient names into equivalent English forms that modern readers would understand.

                          Once again, for the record: The Book of Mormon is a translation. The presence of English or even French words in it does not mean that its writers knew English; only that Joseph Smith, the translator did.


                          A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ralf View Post

                            Is that really necessary CA... mocking us? You claim to have read the BOM... do you remember the story of the spacious building and those entering therein as being mockers and ridiculers of those who found the tree of life.... well that dream or vision pretty much points out what is happening today and in our time....
                            That was a dream Joseph Smith Sr. had. Junior put it in the Book of Mormon, just like he copied other things from other people.
                            ~ There is life after mormonism, and it's good! Just stay close to Christ.
                            ~ You can't follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.
                            ~ "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ralf

                              I have stated boldly that the doctrine of the Trinity was a apostate teaching straight from hell and even Jesus Christ said (first vision) they were a abomination unto Him....
                              "Straight from hell" would describe satans instructions to you in your temples. Why does he tell you to obey mormonism?
                              ~ There is life after mormonism, and it's good! Just stay close to Christ.
                              ~ You can't follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.
                              ~ "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

                              Comment

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