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Mormons are accused of being arrogant

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  • #76
    Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post
    To reiterate the charges:
    1. We’re arrogant because we claim to have the only true Church.

    It isn’t universal but most people think their theology is the correct one and that all the others are less correct. Y’all certainly don’t shy away from telling us that your beliefs are the Truth, that Mormonism is wrong, and if we don’t drop ours and adopt yours we will end up in hell.

    2. We are arrogant because we think we will be gods.

    That is a part of our theology but there’s no exclusivity explicit or implied. Being a member of the Church doesn’t get you to heaven and not being a member doesn’t bar you from it (any and all levels of heaven including the highest). In fact, we go to great lengths and great expense to secure that opportunity for everyone, even people we don’t know, even people who hate us, even y’all. It might be arrogant for a man to see himself as headed for exaltation while all his fellows are headed for something less but there’s no arrogance in seeing oneself headed for an exaltation that he believes is readily available to everyone.

    3. We are called arrogant for claiming to have the Priesthood of God that no other organization has.

    Again, that is a tenet of our faith but that Priesthood is open to all men everywhere who are willing to qualify themselves. And having qualified themselves the Priesthood gives them nothing. There is no value in the Priesthood to the one who holds it. The Priesthood is of value only to those around him.

    As an example, I carry around a shovel that I’m never allowed to put to my own use. Anytime I see anyone in need of shoveling, I’m ready. Car stuck in the snow? I’ll shovel that out for you. No, I can’t lend you the shovel. I have to do the shoveling myself. Camping and need a latrine dug? I have a shovel. Flood left your basement full of mud? I have a shovel. Now, if my own basement is full of mud I can’t use my shovel. Doesn’t work. I have to call some other guy with a shovel and have him help me out, have him shovel my basement, dig out my car, dig my latrine.

    I cannot give myself a blessing. I can only use the Priesthood to bless others. I cannot enrich myself through the Priesthood. I cannot exercise control over others by virtue of the Priesthood (I can try but it isn’t going to get me anywhere). And since the Priesthood is available to anyone who is willing to qualify himself, I can’t even hold myself up as some paragon or vaunt myself as “an instrument of God”. I may be an instrument of God but so is everyone else.

    Hey, I can baptize. So can the twelve year old across the street. I can anoint and bless the sick so that they can miraculously recover. That’s nice but it isn’t the anointing and blessing that creates the miracle. It’s faith. I can.... I .... I can, by virtue of the Priesthood, serve my fellow man as Christ instructed us to do. Having qualified myself and holding the Priesthood I can serve others more and serve them better. And if that was your goal, then it isn’t arrogance.

    I listed 3. If there are lines that you think I should have added to the list please add them. List yours as number 4. Or 5. Or whatever number we get up to.
    Oh, who would think a man who believes he's an embryonic god is arrogant?

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

      Oh, who would think a man who believes he's an embryonic god is arrogant?
      I can answer that, but the answer would probably get reported as "intended only to be divisive....'
      But what post from the antis can you find that has NOT been intended to divide the LDS, to gaslight them, etc.?

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

        Oh, who would think a man who believes he's an embryonic god is arrogant?
        would that be anything like people claiming to be Gods chosen people? Or a people claiming that anyone who disagrees with them are foolish madmen and heretics?
        EMPERORS GRATIAN, VALENTINIAN AND THEODOSIUS AUGUSTI. EDICT TO THE PEOPLE OF CONSTANTINOPLE.
        It is our desire that all the various nations which are subject to our Clemency and Moderation, should continue to profess that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter, as it has been preserved by faithful tradition, and which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness. According to the apostolic teaching and the doctrine of the Gospel, let us believe in the one deity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title of Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since, in our judgment they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give to their conventicles the name of churches. They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of the divine condemnation and in the second the punishment of our authority which in accordance with the will of Heaven we shall decide to inflict.
        GIVEN IN THESSALONICA ON THE THIRD DAY FROM THE CALENDS OF MARCH, DURING THE FIFTH CONSULATE OF GRATIAN AUGUSTUS AND FIRST OF THEODOSIUS AUGUSTUS[4]

        — Codex Theodosianus, xvi.1.2


        Surely noone here brand LDS as heretics because they don't agree with the Trinity dogma..

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

          Oh, who would think a man who believes he's an embryonic god is arrogant?
          arrogant

          adjective


          ar∑ro∑gant | \ˈer-ə-gənt,


          ˈa-rə-\

          Definition of arrogant


          1 : exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner an arrogant official

          2 : showing an offensive attitude of superiority : proceeding from or characterized by arrogance an arrogant reply





          Suppose we have someone who is honestly convinced that s/he is going to heaven. Nothing s/he can do will stop her. Nothing anyone else can do will stop him. Suppose that s/he claims that she doesn't know the reason why s/he has the golden ticket to eternal bliss and others don't; she just does. S/he claims that God gave him the ticket, not for anything that s/he did, or thought, or was....just because He decided that s/he was going.

          That ticket to heaven is hers because God gave it to her. It is his because God put it in his hand. S/he cannot now lose it. it is tattooed upon the palm.Nothing these ticket holders can do can erase the marks, which, again they had absolutely nothing to do with getting them put there...are utterly indelible. They can sin. They can lie, cheat, steal, be miserable to others, mock, deride, walk roughshod over all who believe differently from them, threaten them, hurt them, deny them fellowship or comfort...doesn't matter. Those who hold the golden tickets get the ride to heaven no matter what.

          Suppose, as well, that the Golden ticket holder (GTH for short) understands that there just aren't that many tickets, that no matter how much someone wants one, their distribution is finite and administered by God alone; nothing anybody on the station can do, pay, think or say will allow them to acquire one. Only if one is standing in the right place at the right time (and nobody knows what that is....absolutely random to those standing even if God has an idea in mind) will receive that ticket. Those who get one cannot say no or get rid of it. Those who don't get one, no matter how badly they might want one, can get one. Nobody lets one fall.


          Now take the GTH folks, who have just, basically, won the celestial lottery (as far as they are concerned, they have). spend their time going into groups of non-GTH folks, cursing them, insulting them, accusing them of all manner of things (or which, just as it happens, the GTHers are also guilty) calling them greedy, cultists, pedophile followers, baby murderers, Satanists, torturers, ....oh, the list is long. Knowing all allong that the nonGTH's can't do anything about their condition. They can't go find a golden ticket. They can't ask for one. They can't earn one. They are bound in their condition as completely as a man without legs is bound to a wheel chair,

          And these GTH holders demean, deride, mock, lecture and insult the non GTH folks constantly, with the same rhetoric, many times per day.

          Would the reader care to take a second look at the definition of 'arrogant,' above?

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by oceancoast View Post
            Nope that is NOT what I said.


            Once again , Salvation into the CK and Exaltation are two different things. Both require obedience.. The latter requires FAITH in Christ manifest by your obedience to what he asks.. If he asks that you judge not.. and you judge.. then you are demonstrating you don't really have faith in Him Faith is more than mere belief as James points out.



            And my argument is supported by scholars like Micheal Heiser, and obviously the long list of scholars that worked on the NRSV.. Breaking with TRADITION is often proper, Tradition does not equate to TRUTH.. As you once acknowledged regarding the "Tradition" of the wailing wall in Jerusalem being part of the Temple.. IF that is true, then Jesus' prophecy was false. A tradition of the Sun orbiting the earth was proven false... and so on .. The criticism of the ESV is that it retains outdated and incorrect language and grammar. Very noticeable in the first few verses.. Gen 1:1-3. compare with nRSV. the ESV chose to keep traditional format.. which is good if you are trying to sell Bibles to a audience that has preconceived traditional views about the bible.. but not necessarily accurate reflection of what the Text actually say's. The NRSV breaks with the old tradition and renders the text more accurately in a way more grammatically correct.

            And apparently you didn't read what I wrote here it is again..:
            "Not sure why I said 'false'.. I might have something else on my mind regarding the context of the exchange."....a mistake about English being Largely Germanic or not, even though anyone reading the context of my posts would see I even made the case that the English word in question was of Germanic origin.. so my mistake was not an intentional dispute over English origins.. but obviously something else..
            ROFL.. THis is PROOF you can't accept you made a mistake.. You even PROVED my point with your reference to the dictionary. It all depends on how you define 'gentile' and from YOUR dictionary link.. the very first definition : a person of a non-Jewish nation. Which is consistent with what I said.. Paul was an apostle to the 'gentiles'.. Persons in non-Jewish NATIONS.. The person may or may not be a Jew by heritage or belief... Just living in a non-Jewish Nation. Paul himself was a 'gentile' by that definition.. He was a person living in a non-Jewish nation.. Tarsus was not Jewish.. He was a roman Citizen as well.. Even if he was a practicing an believing Jew. Hence that is why in Acts we see he usually is teaching to Jews in the local synagogue of non-Jewish nations.


            We show you all the time.. and yet it never gets recognized, but denied. This very thread is an example. You are mistaken about LDS beliefs regarding the CK and salvation..


            You keep claiming that but you don't really deliver.. You have convinced yourself of something that isn't true.

            So you claim, but then you conveniently set the bar for proof beyond any reasonable standard as to have a excuse that it hasn't been proven false.


            What a pathetic dodge.. You didn't use my name.. but ALL of your links were directed at my posts. If I choose to do the same I can line up hundreds of posts where you make mistakes.. hundreds.. I bet I wouldn't have to go back more than a few days. I wouldn't use your name, but anyone with living brain cells could tell all the posts would have your name on them.
            You have no idea what kind of faith I have, in Christ Jesus my Lord. I judge no one. But I can and do judge false teachings. I have the authority as a member of the "priesthood" of all believers. And as a blood-washed, Bible believing child of the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords--the true One of the Bible, not the false one of Mormonism, who is an exalted creature and the actual brother (!) of Satan in the supposed pre-mortal existence.

            Yes, it is true, OC--I have many times been accused of making big mistakes about Mormon beliefs, but when I ask for proof, I almost never get any--I am told stuff like "Oh, there are too many to mention" or "it wouldn't do any good." But if there are "hundreds" then show me those "hundreds." But I still did not attack you or anyone else. I showed proof. With links.

            And I did read what you wrote about "false" and maybe you had something else on your mind, but I did cut and paste where you wrote that and what I said above it--and the "false" was in response ONLY to one thing I wrote--that English is of mostly Germanic origin. You did not quote anything else, just that one sentence. So, naturally I thought you meant what I wrote about English origins. What else was I supposed to think? However, I can understand how you may have misread me and was thinking about something else. Happens to me, too.

            And I know that salvation to the CK isn't necessarily exaltation to godhood. But do show us the temple works FROM THE BIBLE being necessary to reach "exaltation" to "godhood." FROM THE BIBLE.

            Sorry, but I did NOT prove you correct about "Gentile". Ask any Jew. In fact, you shot yourself in the foot. A Gentile is a non-Jew, of any nationality. Or ethnicity. And Paul was most definitely a Jew, of the tribe of Abraham. Living in Tarsus did not change his ethnicity or religion. And Paul was the Apostle mainly to the Gentiles--the uncircumcised. I do not see any definition of a "Gentile" being a Jew living outside of Israel. Paul makes a distinction between the Gentiles and the Jews. The Gentiles didn't follow the Law of Moses; the Jews did EVEN when living outside Israel. That is why they had synagogues in other cities outside of Israel, which Paul would go to, to preach first to the Jews. With mixed success. When the Jews rejected his message, he then took the message to the Gentiles.

            Here are ALL the definitions:

            gentile

            noun
            gen∑tile | \ˈjen-ˌtī(-ə)l \ Definition of gentile

            (Entry 1 of 2)

            1often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew

            2: HEATHEN, PAGAN

            3often capitalized : a non-Mormon

            gentile

            adjective
            Definition of gentile (Entry 2 of 2)

            1often capitalized

            a: of or relating to the nations at large as distinguished from the Jews, also : of or relating to Christians as distinguished from the Jews

            b: of or relating to non-Mormons

            2: HEATHEN, PAGAN

            3[ borrowed from Latin gentīlis ] : relating to a tribe or clan
            How many Jewish nations are there, in the world? I know of only one. And living in other nations would not change one's ethnicity, would it? OR one's religion? Paul was still a Jew and NOT a Gentile, even though he was from Tarsus. He still practiced his Judaism until Jesus met him outside of Damascus. My daughter is from India and though she is now an American, she is still Indian. Her ethnicity didn't change when we adopted her and she became an American citizen. So, Jews would not suddenly become Gentiles just because they lived outside Israel.

            So you are dead wrong about Paul and the Gentiles. As I have proven and so have others, in the link I provided.

            And not everyone agrees with Michael Heiser, you know. I think some Mormons just like him because of what he says about the "gods" in Ps. 82. Yet, he has stated that Mormons misuse what he wrote about those verses.

            And I have proven my points many times using official LDS.org sources. No matter what you say. But I still have never attacked you or anyone else on here.
            Last edited by Bonnie; 10-11-18, 10:40 AM.
            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
            “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
            "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
              You have no idea what kind of faith I have, in Christ Jesus my Lord. I judge no one. But I can and do judge false teachings. I have the authority as a member of the "priesthood" of all believers. And as a blood-washed, Bible believing child of the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords--the true One of the Bible, not the false one of Mormonism, who is an exalted creature and the actual brother (!) of Satan in the supposed pre-mortal existence.

              Yes, it is true, OC--I have many times been accused of making big mistakes about Mormon beliefs, but when I ask for proof, I almost never get any--I am told stuff like "Oh, there are too many to mention" or "it wouldn't do any good." But if there are "hundreds" then show me those "hundreds." But I still did not attack you or anyone else. I showed proof. With links.

              And I did read what you wrote about "false" and maybe you had something else on your mind, but I did cut and paste where you wrote that and what I said above it--and the "false" was in response ONLY to one thing I wrote--that English is of mostly Germanic origin. You did not quote anything else, just that one sentence. So, naturally I thought you meant what I wrote about English origins. What else was I supposed to think? However, I can understand how you may have misread me and was thinking about something else. Happens to me, too.

              And I know that salvation to the CK isn't necessarily exaltation to godhood. But do show us the temple works FROM THE BIBLE being necessary to reach "exaltation" to "godhood." FROM THE BIBLE.

              Sorry, but I did NOT prove you correct about "Gentile". Ask any Jew. In fact, you shot yourself in the foot. A Gentile is a non-Jew, of any nationality. Or ethnicity. And Paul was most definitely a Jew, of the tribe of Abraham. Living in Tarsus did not change his ethnicity or religion. And Paul was the Apostle mainly to the Gentiles--the uncircumcised. I do not see any definition of a "Gentile" being a Jew living outside of Israel. Paul makes a distinction between the Gentiles and the Jews. The Gentiles didn't follow the Law of Moses; the Jews did EVEN when living outside Israel. That is why they had synagogues in other cities outside of Israel, which Paul would go to, to preach first to the Jews. With mixed success. When the Jews rejected his message, he then took the message to the Gentiles.

              Here are ALL the definitions:



              How many Jewish nations are there, in the world? I know of only one. And living in other nations would not change one's ethnicity, would it? OR one's religion? Paul was still a Jew and NOT a Gentile, even though he was from Tarsus. He still practiced his Judaism until Jesus met him outside of Damascus. My daughter is from India and though she is now an American, she is still Indian. Her ethnicity didn't change when we adopted her and she became an American citizen. So, Jews would not suddenly become Gentiles just because they lived outside Israel.

              So you are dead wrong about Paul and the Gentiles. As I have proven and so have others, in the link I provided.

              And not everyone agrees with Michael Heiser, you know. I think some Mormons just like him because of what he says about the "gods" in Ps. 82. Yet, he has stated that Mormons misuse what he wrote about those verses.

              And I have proven my points many times using official LDS.org sources. No matter what you say. But I still have never attacked you or anyone else on here.
              You're right - Heiser has actually written an article opposed to the Mormon view. Mormonism is dishonest if it attempts to use Heiser to support its men to gods teaching.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                2 Corinthians 12:2
                such a man, having been caught up to the third heaven.
                There canít be a third heaven if there are not a first and second.

                From Doctrine and Covenants 76:89
                And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;
                They had a vision of heaven but what they saw was the Telestial kingdom. That makes the Telestial kingdom heaven or a part of heaven.
                Which demonstrates once again that any Mormon source should not be used to define the Bible - the Jews believed in three heavens. The atmosphere around us as the first; what we today call 'outer space,' as the second; and the third being the Dwelling Place of God. When Paul says he was caught up to the Third Heaven, Jews would understand him as saying he went to the dwelling place of God. If you want to know a Biblical explanation of Paul's words, it's best not to go to Mormon sites, which are generally elaborately biased in favor of false cult teaching. Try researching yourself, it's always the better way.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                  You have no idea what kind of faith I have, in Christ Jesus my Lord. I judge no one. But I can and do judge false teachings. I have the authority as a member of the "priesthood" of all believers. And as a blood-washed, Bible believing child of the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords--the true One of the Bible, not the false one of Mormonism, who is an exalted creature and the actual brother (!) of Satan in the supposed pre-mortal existence.

                  Yes, it is true, OC--I have many times been accused of making big mistakes about Mormon beliefs, but when I ask for proof, I almost never get any--I am told stuff like "Oh, there are too many to mention" or "it wouldn't do any good." But if there are "hundreds" then show me those "hundreds." But I still did not attack you or anyone else. I showed proof. With links.

                  And I did read what you wrote about "false" and maybe you had something else on your mind, but I did cut and paste where you wrote that and what I said above it--and the "false" was in response ONLY to one thing I wrote--that English is of mostly Germanic origin. You did not quote anything else, just that one sentence. So, naturally I thought you meant what I wrote about English origins. What else was I supposed to think? However, I can understand how you may have misread me and was thinking about something else. Happens to me, too.

                  And I know that salvation to the CK isn't necessarily exaltation to godhood. But do show us the temple works FROM THE BIBLE being necessary to reach "exaltation" to "godhood." FROM THE BIBLE.

                  Sorry, but I did NOT prove you correct about "Gentile". Ask any Jew. In fact, you shot yourself in the foot. A Gentile is a non-Jew, of any nationality. Or ethnicity. And Paul was most definitely a Jew, of the tribe of Abraham. Living in Tarsus did not change his ethnicity or religion. And Paul was the Apostle mainly to the Gentiles--the uncircumcised. I do not see any definition of a "Gentile" being a Jew living outside of Israel. Paul makes a distinction between the Gentiles and the Jews. The Gentiles didn't follow the Law of Moses; the Jews did EVEN when living outside Israel. That is why they had synagogues in other cities outside of Israel, which Paul would go to, to preach first to the Jews. With mixed success. When the Jews rejected his message, he then took the message to the Gentiles.

                  Here are ALL the definitions:



                  How many Jewish nations are there, in the world? I know of only one. And living in other nations would not change one's ethnicity, would it? OR one's religion? Paul was still a Jew and NOT a Gentile, even though he was from Tarsus. He still practiced his Judaism until Jesus met him outside of Damascus. My daughter is from India and though she is now an American, she is still Indian. Her ethnicity didn't change when we adopted her and she became an American citizen. So, Jews would not suddenly become Gentiles just because they lived outside Israel.

                  So you are dead wrong about Paul and the Gentiles. As I have proven and so have others, in the link I provided.

                  And not everyone agrees with Michael Heiser, you know. I think some Mormons just like him because of what he says about the "gods" in Ps. 82. Yet, he has stated that Mormons misuse what he wrote about those verses.

                  And I have proven my points many times using official LDS.org sources. No matter what you say. But I still have never attacked you or anyone else on here.
                  That should have been Paul was of the tribe of BENJAMIN.. NOT Abraham. My bad.
                  "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                  "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                  “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                  "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                  "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                    You're right - Heiser has actually written an article opposed to the Mormon view. Mormonism is dishonest if it attempts to use Heiser to support its men to gods teaching.
                    I think he has a YouTube out about this, but will have to research it more. I do not agree with him that those "gods" in Ps. 82 are other divine beings different from angels, though still creatures and NOT the untreated unique God. I think that is what he wrote to Markk that he put down on here, years ago. I think they were unjust human rulers/judges with god-like powers over the people.
                    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                    “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                    "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                      You're right - Heiser has actually written an article opposed to the Mormon view. Mormonism is dishonest if it attempts to use Heiser to support its men to gods teaching.
                      Atheists have written articles opposed to the teachings of YOUR church, so antimormonism is dishonest if it attempts to use the writings of atheists to support antimormon teachings.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                        You're right - Heiser has actually written an article opposed to the Mormon view. Mormonism is dishonest if it attempts to use Heiser to support its men to gods teaching.
                        Well, some do the same with the ECFs--quote them where they THINK they agree with their Mormon beliefs, though in context, they do not--but ignore the rest of what they wrote, that clearly disagrees with Mormon doctrines. Same with Heiser.
                        "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                        "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                        “It’s easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                        "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                        "If the truth hurts--then it is working."--anonymous

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                          I think he has a YouTube out about this, but will have to research it more. I do not agree with him that those "gods" in Ps. 82 are other divine beings different from angels, though still creatures and NOT the untreated unique God. I think that is what he wrote to Markk that he put down on here, years ago. I think they were unjust human rulers/judges with god-like powers over the people.
                          of course your understanding of ancient Biblical Hebrew must exceed Heisers' right? Or is this a case of you only agree with that which agrees with your imagination?

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post

                            Atheists have written articles opposed to the teachings of YOUR church, so antimormonism is dishonest if it attempts to use the writings of atheists to support antimormon teachings.
                            Indeed, yet we see certian antiMormons here consistently appealing to atheists and their arguments.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                              You have no idea what kind of faith I have, in Christ Jesus my Lord
                              I do in fact have an idea.. sorry to burst your bubble. My idea is derived from reading your posts, which are evidence of behavior. I can assess from that behavior to develop and idea.

                              I judge no one.
                              Really? I think your posts betray your statement here.. Haven't we seen accusations that Joseph Smith being guilty of adultery? Without the biblical requisite corroboration of such a claim of wrong doing? Isn't that the same as ignoring what Christ admonished.. How does someone claim to have faith in Christ and then ignore his teaching. Isn't the abandonment of following this simple admonishment a testament to the level of faith someone has in Christ?

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post
                                To reiterate the charges:
                                1. Weíre arrogant because we claim to have the only true Church.

                                It isnít universal but most people think their theology is the correct one and that all the others are less correct. Yíall certainly donít shy away from telling us that your beliefs are the Truth, that Mormonism is wrong, and if we donít drop ours and adopt yours we will end up in hell.

                                2. We are arrogant because we think we will be gods.

                                That is a part of our theology but thereís no exclusivity explicit or implied. Being a member of the Church doesnít get you to heaven and not being a member doesnít bar you from it (any and all levels of heaven including the highest). In fact, we go to great lengths and great expense to secure that opportunity for everyone, even people we donít know, even people who hate us, even yíall. It might be arrogant for a man to see himself as headed for exaltation while all his fellows are headed for something less but thereís no arrogance in seeing oneself headed for an exaltation that he believes is readily available to everyone.

                                3. We are called arrogant for claiming to have the Priesthood of God that no other organization has.

                                Again, that is a tenet of our faith but that Priesthood is open to all men everywhere who are willing to qualify themselves. And having qualified themselves the Priesthood gives them nothing. There is no value in the Priesthood to the one who holds it. The Priesthood is of value only to those around him.

                                As an example, I carry around a shovel that Iím never allowed to put to my own use. Anytime I see anyone in need of shoveling, Iím ready. Car stuck in the snow? Iíll shovel that out for you. No, I canít lend you the shovel. I have to do the shoveling myself. Camping and need a latrine dug? I have a shovel. Flood left your basement full of mud? I have a shovel. Now, if my own basement is full of mud I canít use my shovel. Doesnít work. I have to call some other guy with a shovel and have him help me out, have him shovel my basement, dig out my car, dig my latrine.

                                I cannot give myself a blessing. I can only use the Priesthood to bless others. I cannot enrich myself through the Priesthood. I cannot exercise control over others by virtue of the Priesthood (I can try but it isnít going to get me anywhere). And since the Priesthood is available to anyone who is willing to qualify himself, I canít even hold myself up as some paragon or vaunt myself as ďan instrument of GodĒ. I may be an instrument of God but so is everyone else.

                                Hey, I can baptize. So can the twelve year old across the street. I can anoint and bless the sick so that they can miraculously recover. Thatís nice but it isnít the anointing and blessing that creates the miracle. Itís faith. I can.... I .... I can, by virtue of the Priesthood, serve my fellow man as Christ instructed us to do. Having qualified myself and holding the Priesthood I can serve others more and serve them better. And if that was your goal, then it isnít arrogance.

                                I listed 3. If there are lines that you think I should have added to the list please add them. List yours as number 4. Or 5. Or whatever number we get up to.
                                You all think you will be gods....in spite of what Jesus said about being the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning in the End, the First AND THE LAST.

                                In other words, there was none before Him AND NONE AFTER HIM. There is only one God.

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