Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

Mormons are accused of being arrogant

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Originally posted by oceancoast View Post
    I do in fact have an idea.. sorry to burst your bubble. My idea is derived from reading your posts, which are evidence of behavior. I can assess from that behavior to develop and idea.


    Really? I think your posts betray your statement here.. Haven't we seen accusations that Joseph Smith being guilty of adultery? Without the biblical requisite corroboration of such a claim of wrong doing? Isn't that the same as ignoring what Christ admonished.. How does someone claim to have faith in Christ and then ignore his teaching. Isn't the abandonment of following this simple admonishment a testament to the level of faith someone has in Christ?
    I judge no one's FINAL DESTINY after death. That is what I meant, had you bothered to read me IN CONTEXT. I know context is anathema in Mormonism, but misunderstandings could be avoided if they did read more in context.

    And we have discussed the evidence for Smith's adultery, with testimony from some of his own wives. I have said we do not have 100% proof, but we do have evidence. Which is what you once asked for--not proof, but evidence. Which we have all given you and others on here. But it too is dismissed and pooh-poohed.
    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
    "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
    "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by oceancoast View Post
      I do in fact have an idea.. sorry to burst your bubble. My idea is derived from reading your posts, which are evidence of behavior. I can assess from that behavior to develop and idea.


      Really? I think your posts betray your statement here.. Haven't we seen accusations that Joseph Smith being guilty of adultery? Without the biblical requisite corroboration of such a claim of wrong doing? Isn't that the same as ignoring what Christ admonished.. How does someone claim to have faith in Christ and then ignore his teaching. Isn't the abandonment of following this simple admonishment a testament to the level of faith someone has in Christ?
      And my behavior includes never attacking anyone on here, ever. And being as civil as possible, without backing down one iota from the truth. And we have discussed the adultery thing many times on here. Mormons once asked to see "evidence" for it--not proof, but evidence (and I archived that post)--so we showed Mormons on here evidence for it. And we gave them evidence, even from some of his wives. And even the lds website says that Smith was married for time as well as for eternity, with some of his wives, which could have included the possibility of sex. But of course, Mormons pooh-poohed the evidence, so we are darned if we do and darned if we don't.

      As for behavior, take care of your own, and I will take care of mine.
      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by oceancoast View Post

        of course your understanding of ancient Biblical Hebrew must exceed Heisers' right? Or is this a case of you only agree with that which agrees with your imagination?
        No-- though I know someone whose Hebrew is every bit as good as Heiser's.

        But I do not need to know Hebrew to read in context and know the psalmist was talking about unjust human judges or rulers. Because what would other deities be doing judging people on earth, when it belongs to the LORD? What did God do--outsource judging to other Gods, since he supposedly lives near a star named Kolob? And everything in it? And why would they judge unjustly? Wouldn't that make them sinners, and really demons?
        .
        Last edited by Bonnie; 10-12-18, 10:48 AM.
        "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
        "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
        "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
        "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
        "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by oceancoast View Post
          I do in fact have an idea.. sorry to burst your bubble. My idea is derived from reading your posts, which are evidence of behavior. I can assess from that behavior to develop and idea.


          Really? I think your posts betray your statement here.. Haven't we seen accusations that Joseph Smith being guilty of adultery? Without the biblical requisite corroboration of such a claim of wrong doing? Isn't that the same as ignoring what Christ admonished.. How does someone claim to have faith in Christ and then ignore his teaching. Isn't the abandonment of following this simple admonishment a testament to the level of faith someone has in Christ?
          am accusing them of nothing. Nor am I confused.I merely quoted the Bible. And it is Jews who usually practice Judaism and worship the God of the OT, correct? Rejecting Jesus Christ as the Messiah? Paul said the Gospel was FIRST for the Jews and then Gentiles. So he obviously thought the Gospel message was imoprtant. If the Jews worshiping the God of the OT even while REJECTING Jesus as the Messiah, is all that was necessary for salvation, then why did Paul and the other apostles preach the Gospel to the Jews? Why did Paul, when most Jews rejected the Gospel, tell them they had judged themselves unworthy of salvation, and say he would from then on go to the Gentiles? So far, u have not answered these questions. Why? I just get deflections.

          As for JS, Jesus said we would know false prophetas by their bad fruit. So, I listed some of JS' more obvious rotten fruit. God also told us how to spot false prophets, and JS fulfilled the criterium God gave for a false prophet. More rotten fruit.

          but ultimately, Jesus is the final judge as to who is saved and who is not.


          O am at the doctor's office, getting a flu shot, sshI cannot look up Bible verses. And forgive my typos. I am on my phone.

          "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
          "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
          "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
          "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
          "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by oceancoast View Post
            Nope that is NOT what I said.


            Once again , Salvation into the CK and Exaltation are two different things. Both require obedience.. The latter requires FAITH in Christ manifest by your obedience to what he asks.. If he asks that you judge not.. and you judge.. then you are demonstrating you don't really have faith in Him Faith is more than mere belief as James points out.



            And my argument is supported by scholars like Micheal Heiser, and obviously the long list of scholars that worked on the NRSV.. Breaking with TRADITION is often proper, Tradition does not equate to TRUTH.. As you once acknowledged regarding the "Tradition" of the wailing wall in Jerusalem being part of the Temple.. IF that is true, then Jesus' prophecy was false. A tradition of the Sun orbiting the earth was proven false... and so on .. The criticism of the ESV is that it retains outdated and incorrect language and grammar. Very noticeable in the first few verses.. Gen 1:1-3. compare with nRSV. the ESV chose to keep traditional format.. which is good if you are trying to sell Bibles to a audience that has preconceived traditional views about the bible.. but not necessarily accurate reflection of what the Text actually say's. The NRSV breaks with the old tradition and renders the text more accurately in a way more grammatically correct.

            And apparently you didn't read what I wrote here it is again..:
            "Not sure why I said 'false'.. I might have something else on my mind regarding the context of the exchange."....a mistake about English being Largely Germanic or not, even though anyone reading the context of my posts would see I even made the case that the English word in question was of Germanic origin.. so my mistake was not an intentional dispute over English origins.. but obviously something else..
            ROFL.. THis is PROOF you can't accept you made a mistake.. You even PROVED my point with your reference to the dictionary. It all depends on how you define 'gentile' and from YOUR dictionary link.. the very first definition : a person of a non-Jewish nation. Which is consistent with what I said.. Paul was an apostle to the 'gentiles'.. Persons in non-Jewish NATIONS.. The person may or may not be a Jew by heritage or belief... Just living in a non-Jewish Nation. Paul himself was a 'gentile' by that definition.. He was a person living in a non-Jewish nation.. Tarsus was not Jewish.. He was a roman Citizen as well.. Even if he was a practicing an believing Jew. Hence that is why in Acts we see he usually is teaching to Jews in the local synagogue of non-Jewish nations.


            We show you all the time.. and yet it never gets recognized, but denied. This very thread is an example. You are mistaken about LDS beliefs regarding the CK and salvation..


            You keep claiming that but you don't really deliver.. You have convinced yourself of something that isn't true.

            So you claim, but then you conveniently set the bar for proof beyond any reasonable standard as to have a excuse that it hasn't been proven false.


            What a pathetic dodge.. You didn't use my name.. but ALL of your links were directed at my posts. If I choose to do the same I can line up hundreds of posts where you make mistakes.. hundreds.. I bet I wouldn't have to go back more than a few days. I wouldn't use your name, but anyone with living brain cells could tell all the posts would have your name on them.
            I did my best not to attack anyone, to obey the rules, hence, why I did not name names.

            By the way, I did alert on our posts about Paul and Gentiles and asked if they should be moved. They were, to Apologetics. That way, if we wish to discuss it further, we won't break any rules against going off topic for this board.
            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

            Comment


            • #96
              I said
              Originally posted by oceancoast View Post
              Really? I think your posts betray your statement here.. Haven't we seen accusations that Joseph Smith being guilty of adultery?
              you reply
              Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

              am accusing them of nothing.
              really?
              Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
              So Joseph Smith made adulteresses out of those women whom he married, while they were still married to their first husbands. He had NO shame!
              Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
              For instance, we have proven to Mormons many times on here that JS DID commit adultery,
              Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
              I think JS just instituted it as a form of serial adultery, so he could get as many women as he wanted, all under the guise of a "revelation" from God. Funny how the Mormon God always seemed to give JS what he wanted....
              Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
              Baloney. That is just your opinion,and everything you write here is fully substantiated by your own opinion, right? And we weren't talking about JS's adultery--
              and there are many more...
              Nor am I confused.I merely quoted the Bible.
              Seems you are confused as the post you are replying to has no quotes of the Bible and was about accusation made about Joseph Smith without the Christ admonished requisite of corroborated evidence when charging someone of wrong doing..

              “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” -- George Carlin

              We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideals of Christianity, our movement is Christian. - Adolf Hitler

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                No-- though I know someone whose Hebrew is every bit as good as Heiser's.
                Really.. who? Dr. Lunginbill? He's not a Hebrew Scholar.. he's a scholar on Greek classics. See here: He may have taken a class in Hebrew.. but Heiser makes a living on his knowledge of Biblical Hebrew and ancient Israel. See here Dr Lunginbill does not. So once again.. isn't your choice of scholars are the ones that agree with your imagination?


                “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” -- George Carlin

                We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideals of Christianity, our movement is Christian. - Adolf Hitler

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                  I judge no one's FINAL DESTINY after death.
                  I never said you did.


                  That is what I meant, had you bothered to read me IN CONTEXT.I know context is anathema in Mormonism, but misunderstandings could be avoided if they did read more in context.
                  i did read you in context and once again you put forth a false accusation about Mormonism right here.. proving that you do make false claims and judgement about others.




                  And we have discussed the evidence for Smith's adultery, with testimony from some of his own wives. I have said we do not have 100% proof, but we do have evidence. Which is what you once asked for--not proof, but evidence. Which we have all given you and others on here. But it too is dismissed and pooh-poohed.
                  No, I didn't ask for 'evidence'.. I asked for Proof.. or corroborating evidence for the specious claims you and your fellows make.
                  Last edited by oceancoast; 10-12-18, 07:57 PM.
                  “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” -- George Carlin

                  We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideals of Christianity, our movement is Christian. - Adolf Hitler

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                    And my behavior includes never attacking anyone on here, ever.
                    except the feigned attack on me, where you posted links to a list of my posts.. making claims about the 'poster'.



                    As for behavior, take care of your own, and I will take care of mine.
                    I do.. and you should too.. The point was your claim I had NO IDEA about your faith in Christ.. I do have an idea based upon the behavior demonstrated with the posts.
                    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” -- George Carlin

                    We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideals of Christianity, our movement is Christian. - Adolf Hitler

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oceancoast View Post
                      I never said you did.



                      i did read you in context and once again you put forth a false accusation about Mormonism right here..
                      Good catch. A rational, informed and impartial person would never make the accusation that context is anathema to us.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                        You're right - Heiser has actually written an article opposed to the Mormon view. Mormonism is dishonest if it attempts to use Heiser to support its men to gods teaching.
                        And here is a video (sound quality not great but understandable) of Heiser condemning Mormon misuse of Divine Council theory.
                        Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post

                          Good catch. A rational, informed and impartial person would never make the accusation that context is anathema to us.
                          That's right, they should say, "Context is ALWAYS ANATHEMA for the Mormon "apologists." "
                          Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oceancoast View Post

                            of course your understanding of ancient Biblical Hebrew must exceed Heisers' right? Or is this a case of you only agree with that which agrees with your imagination?
                            And are you an expert in Hebrew, or have you gotten your own view from others - let's say, MORMON "scholarship?" I would say this Jesuit has as much if not more expertise in the theology, tradition and language of Ps. 82 than anybody you know, or even Heiser himself:

                            https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/cu...ing-to-be-gods
                            Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oceancoast View Post
                              I never said you did.



                              i did read you in context and once again you put forth a false accusation about Mormonism right here.. proving that you do make false claims and judgement about others.




                              No, I didn't ask for 'evidence'.. I asked for Proof.. or corroborating evidence for the specious claims you and your fellows make.
                              What did I supposedly get wrong?

                              And i never said you DID accuse me of judging others' final destinies. You accused me of being judgmental and I simply explained in more detail that I do NOT judge anyone's final destiny. But we CAN judge someone's "fruit." Else how are we to know whom God sent and whom He did not? God in Deuteronomy tells us how to judge false prophets, and so does Jesus. We can certainly judge "fruit" since we can see that. We cannot see into the hear, however.

                              Actually, I think you did ask for evidence, not proof, but I will have to double-check the link I saved. You could be correct.

                              And we did give Mormons here "corroborating evidence"--from at least 2 of Smith's plural wives. Did they all lie?
                              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                              "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                              "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oceancoast
                                in other words.. it was feigned personal attack.. since all the posts you cited were posts by me.. so you didn't need to explictly name me, the target of your post was obviously me.
                                But I still didn't attack anyone. I simply showed links to posts where there was no admission of having goofed, even after being shown proof of errors. And errors were made. I was just providing proof of my assertions, which we are supposed to do on here.

                                I have, in fact, made mistakes on here and admitted them--like saying the Nephites came over in submersibles, instead of the Jaredites; of saying one had to be married in the temple to be exalted to godhood; and of saying that the only true unmerited grace in Mormonism is bodily resurrection (which I actually got from a talk posted on the lds.org website). In all three cases, Mormons corrected me and showed me proof. So I apologized and never made those mistakes again. But I was shown proof--except for the marriage one; a nice Mormon on here just gently corrected me., that one had to have the marriage SEALED in the temple; not get married in it.
                                "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                                "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                                "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                                "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                                "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X