Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

Exegesis: Do Mormons Know How To Do It?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Exegesis: Do Mormons Know How To Do It?

    Originally posted by zerinus View Post

    You got that partially right, but not entirely. This passage is an example of "parallelism" in Hebrew literature. It is a literary device where a concept is repeated, but with variation for emphasis, or to achieve other literary effects. The first clause: "God is not man . . .", stands in parallel to the second clause: "neither the son of man . . .", and essentially repeats the same thing, but with variation. Every "man" is also a "son of man;" therefore "man" and "son of man" in that context mean the same thing. But you got the rest of it right. It means that God is not mortal man, that he should be subject to human weaknesses such as sinning, lying, or having to "change his mind". To "repent" in this context means to change his mind. God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, and knows the end from the beginning; therefore once he has made up his mind about something, he has no reason afterwards to go back and change his mind. That is unlike us, who don't know everything, and can make mistakes, and could change our minds when we discover that we had made a wrong decision because we hadn't known all the facts. What it does NOT mean that God is therefore bereft of a physical body which looks like a man. God can posses all those attributes of divinity, and still be corporeal, and possess a physical body which looks like a man.

    The above "rationalization" is a good example of what Mormons do.
    They start with Mormon theology, and then they go to the Bible and try to "twist" it to make it conform to Mormon theology.
    And they think that if they can do this, and the result is reasonable, that means that their belief is true.

    But that is not "exegesis", that is EISEGESIS (reading meaning INTO the text).

    Theology does not determine the meaning of Scripture.
    Scripture determines the meaning of theology.



    So first we have the following statement:

    Originally posted by zerinus View Post

    But you got the rest of it right. It means that God is not mortal man, that he should be subject to human weaknesses such as sinning, lying, or having to "change his mind".
    We have Mormons adding a "qualifier", that is NOWHERE IN THE TEXT, "God is not a mortal man". The Jews had absolutely NO concept of different "types of men, such as "mortal" men, "immortal" men", "this type" of man, or "that type" of man. There was only ONE kind of "man". Today we call them "Homo sapiens".

    The Jews knew of two types of beings, "god" and "man". "Man" means "anthropos", "mortal", "fleshly", "human", etc.


    And this leads to something Mormons CONSTANTLY do.
    The Bible says, "God is NOT A MAN".
    Mormons ADD to the text, "God is not a mortal man", so that they can CONTRADICT what Scripture actually says, and so can claim that God IS a man, he's simply not one of those "mortal" men.

    When you are forced to ADD to the text something that is NOT present in the text, and NOT present in the understanding of the Jews, and that addition makes the text now say the OPPOSITE of what it originally said, that is a SURE sign that you are misinterpreting Scripture.


    Now, the poster had one thing correct:

    Originally posted by zerinus View Post

    You got that partially right, but not entirely. This passage is an example of "parallelism" in Hebrew literature. It is a literary device where a concept is repeated, but with variation for emphasis, or to achieve other literary effects.
    And this helps us to properly interpret the text.

    Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie;
    neither the son of man, that he should repent:


    "God is not a man", and "[God is] neither the son of man", are saying the same thing.
    God is not mortal.
    God is not human.
    God is not fleshly.
    God is SPIRIT.

    Therefore, God is not an "exalted man" who lives in "yonder heavens".

    Mormons try to equivocate by claiming this refers to Jesus, who IS "son of man". But Jesus had NOT been revealed yet. Jesus had NOT been incarnated yet. This is referring to God the FATHER.



    Finally, it was asserted that we misinterpret this verse, "because Jesus":

    Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post
    Except that Jesus actually IS the son of man so we know that the sentence must be understood as God is not the kind of man that lies, nor is the Son the kind that needs repentence.

    But there are two problems with this interpretation:

    1) This verse isn't referring to Jesus (who hadn't taken a body of flesh yet), it's referring to the Father. NO JEW would have interpreted this according to "Jesus", since none of them KNEW "Jesus". And so this interpretation is clearly false.

    2) Even if we bring in Jesus being "the son of man", that is not the same thing as "son of man" means in this verse. As zerinus correctly pointed out, "son of man" in the Old Testament simply meant, the same as "man". If you are born of man (human), you are a "son of man" (ie. human). Just as "son of cow" is "cow", and "son of cat" is "cat". It is simply a testimony of your NATURE, or what "species" you are.

    But when Jesus refers to Himself as "THE Son of man" (not merely "a" son of man), He is undoubtedly referring to the "Son of man" described in Daniel:

    Dan. 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    Matt. 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

    Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
    Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?

    Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

    Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
    Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?

    Matt. 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
    Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?

    Matt. 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

    Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
    Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?

    Matt. 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

    Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
    Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?

    Matt. 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
    Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?

    Matt. 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
    Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?

    Matt. 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
    Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?

    Matt. 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
    Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?
    "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
    but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
    -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

  • #2
    Exegesis: Do Mormons Know How To Do It?


    EDITED Posted merely to be divisive and annoying No inherent value
    Last edited by Mod8; 10-08-18, 01:17 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

      We have Mormons adding a "qualifier", that is NOWHERE IN THE TEXT, "God is not a mortal man".
      By "mortal man" I meant "fallen man". I meant man in his fallen condition, which is capable of sinning and lying, which God is not. God is first of all holy, meaning that he does not sin; and he wants us to strive to be holy like him:

      Leviticus 11:

      44 For I am the Lord your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      45 For I am the Lord that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

      Leviticus 19:

      2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy.

      Leviticus 20:

      7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the Lord your God.
      * * *
      26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

      Leviticus 21:

      8 Thou shalt sanctify him therefore; for he offereth the bread of thy God: he shall be holy unto thee: for I the Lord, which sanctify you, am holy.

      1 Peter 1:

      15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
      16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


      God is also incapable of lying:

      Titus 1:

      2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;


      Man in his fallen state can never be as perfect as God is, in any of those areas; but still he wants us to try:

      Matthew 5:

      48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


      with the promise and assurance that someday in the hereafter we shall attain to those perfections:

      1 John 3:

      2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
      3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


      Now returning to Numbers 23:19: "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent," the reference is obviously to man in his fallen, mortal, and imperfect condition. Fallen man still sins, is capable of lying, and can "repent" (i.e. change his mind) when he discovers that that he had made a mistake. God still wants him to try to be as perfect and as holy as he can be, although he cannot be as holy and perfect as God is in his present mortal and fallen condition. But that only applies to the period of mortality. In the resurrection of the just when man is perfected, justified, and glorified, he will no longer be subject to the weaknesses of mortal, fallen humanity, and can be as holy and perfect as God wants him to be. So to sum up, Numbers 23:19 refers to man in his mortal, fallen condition. What it does NOT mean is that God must somehow be incorporeal, or that he cannot have a physical body that looks like a man. Jesus is divine, and possesses all those attributes of perfection just described; but at the same time he is also a man, and has a physical resurrected body that looks like a man, and dwells as such eternally in the heavens.
      zerinus
      Keep Calm!
      I am a Mormon!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post


        The above "rationalization" is a good example of what Mormons do.
        They start with Mormon theology, and then they go to the Bible and try to "twist" it to make it conform to Mormon theology.
        And they think that if they can do this, and the result is reasonable, that means that their belief is true.

        But that is not "exegesis", that is EISEGESIS (reading meaning INTO the text).

        Theology does not determine the meaning of Scripture.
        Scripture determines the meaning of theology.



        So first we have the following statement:



        We have Mormons adding a "qualifier", that is NOWHERE IN THE TEXT, "God is not a mortal man". The Jews had absolutely NO concept of different "types of men, such as "mortal" men, "immortal" men", "this type" of man, or "that type" of man. There was only ONE kind of "man". Today we call them "Homo sapiens".

        The Jews knew of two types of beings, "god" and "man". "Man" means "anthropos", "mortal", "fleshly", "human", etc.


        And this leads to something Mormons CONSTANTLY do.
        The Bible says, "God is NOT A MAN".
        Mormons ADD to the text, "God is not a mortal man", so that they can CONTRADICT what Scripture actually says, and so can claim that God IS a man, he's simply not one of those "mortal" men.

        When you are forced to ADD to the text something that is NOT present in the text, and NOT present in the understanding of the Jews, and that addition makes the text now say the OPPOSITE of what it originally said, that is a SURE sign that you are misinterpreting Scripture.


        Now, the poster had one thing correct:



        And this helps us to properly interpret the text.

        Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie;
        neither the son of man, that he should repent:


        "God is not a man", and "[God is] neither the son of man", are saying the same thing.
        God is not mortal.
        God is not human.
        God is not fleshly.
        God is SPIRIT.

        Therefore, God is not an "exalted man" who lives in "yonder heavens".

        Mormons try to equivocate by claiming this refers to Jesus, who IS "son of man". But Jesus had NOT been revealed yet. Jesus had NOT been incarnated yet. This is referring to God the FATHER.



        Finally, it was asserted that we misinterpret this verse, "because Jesus":




        But there are two problems with this interpretation:

        1) This verse isn't referring to Jesus (who hadn't taken a body of flesh yet), it's referring to the Father. NO JEW would have interpreted this according to "Jesus", since none of them KNEW "Jesus". And so this interpretation is clearly false.

        2) Even if we bring in Jesus being "the son of man", that is not the same thing as "son of man" means in this verse. As zerinus correctly pointed out, "son of man" in the Old Testament simply meant, the same as "man". If you are born of man (human), you are a "son of man" (ie. human). Just as "son of cow" is "cow", and "son of cat" is "cat". It is simply a testimony of your NATURE, or what "species" you are.

        But when Jesus refers to Himself as "THE Son of man" (not merely "a" son of man), He is undoubtedly referring to the "Son of man" described in Daniel:

        Dan. 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
        Matt. 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

        Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
        Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?

        Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

        Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
        Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?

        Matt. 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

        Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
        Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?

        Matt. 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

        Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
        Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?

        Matt. 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

        Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
        Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?

        Matt. 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

        Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
        Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?

        Matt. 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

        Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
        Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?

        Matt. 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

        Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
        Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?

        Matt. 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

        Is this referring to ALL humans (all "sons of men")?
        Or is it only referring to Jesus, THE "Son of man"?
        Apparently all the times we have discussed the doctrine of Christ's two natures, He being both God and Man, has fallen on deaf ears.
        Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by zerinus View Post
          By "mortal man" I meant "fallen man". I meant man in his fallen condition, which is capable of sinning and lying, which God is not. God is first of all holy, meaning that he does not sin; and he wants us to strive to be holy like him:
          But the point (that you seem to keep RUNNING AWAY from) is that the text does NOT SAY "mortal man", or "fallen man".
          It just says "man".

          And of course, that CONTRADICTS Mormonism, so you have to twist the text and add "qualifiers" to nullify its meaning.

          Leviticus 11:

          44 For I am the Lord your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
          45 For I am the Lord that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

          Leviticus 19:

          2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy.
          Yes, of course God is holy, and we are not.

          That's because holiness is part of the NATURE of God.
          And sinfulness is part of the NATURE of man.

          Elohim did NOT become "exalted" from "unholy god" to "Holy God".
          He did not become exalted from "unholy man" to "Holy God".


          And NONE of this denies the BIBLICAL FACT that "God is NOT a man".

          Now returning to Numbers 23:19: "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent," the reference is obviously to man in his fallen, mortal, and imperfect condition.
          ... which is the ONLY "condition" that the Jews would understand "man" to be about.
          So there is absolutely NO REASON for the Jews to ARTIFICIALLY make the "distinction" you want to FORCE into the text (which is textbook "eisegesis" by you).

          Fallen man still sins, is capable of lying, and can "repent" (i.e. change his mind) when he discovers that that he had made a mistake. God still wants him to try to be as perfect and as holy as he can be, although he cannot be as holy and perfect as God is in his present mortal and fallen condition. But that only applies to the period of mortality. In the resurrection of the just when man is perfected, justified, and glorified, he will no longer be subject to the weaknesses of mortal, fallen humanity, and can be as holy and perfect as God wants him to be.
          And this is all IRRELEVANT, since even after the resurrection, no sinner will ever be a "god".
          And God is STILL "not a man".

          Of course, one of the best questions I've ever heard to ask an average Mormon on the street was developed by Aaron S., who used to post here. Since Mormons believe in "eternal progression", and that sinners like us can potentially "progress" to become gods ourselves, the question is asked:

          "Did God ever sin?"
          "Did Elohim ever sin?"

          It stands to reason that the vast majority of "gods" in Mormonism progressed from being sinners who were redeemed by a Saviour. And there is no reason to think it would be any different for Elohim.

          So to sum up, Numbers 23:19 refers to man in his mortal, fallen condition.
          And of course, the text does NOT say that.
          The text (immediate or general) makes NO distinction about various "types" of men, that only ONE type of man is included here, and that other men are excluded.

          It simply says, "men".
          You have to ADD "mortal, fallen condition" to try to CHANGE the meaning, and that is textbook EISEGESIS.

          What it does NOT mean is that God must somehow be incorporeal, or that he cannot have a physical body that looks like a man.
          When an apologist talks about a text and say, "What it DOES NOT mean", or "What it CANNOT mean", this is usually driven by a conflict with one's personal theology, and so you DENY that it means what it says, because it CAN'T, otherwise your personal theology is false.

          And again, this is textbook EISEGESIS.

          And why do you say that "It DOES NOT mean" this?
          Because it contradicts Mormonism, which teaches that God DOES have a "physical body".

          Jesus is divine, and possesses all those attributes of perfection just described; but at the same time he is also a man, and has a physical resurrected body that looks like a man, and dwells as such eternally in the heavens.
          Notice the equivocation here.

          Num. 23:19 is NOT about "Jesus".
          It is about "Heavenly Father".

          And Jesus said of Heavenly Father:

          John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
          Jesus was talking to the Samaritan woman at the well. He's talking about how different sects worship God in different PHYSICAL places ("this mountain", "Jerusalem", etc.). And Jesus says that this is based on ignorance, and that "God is Spirit", contrasting His nature from the "physical" idea of worshipping Him at a particular physical place.

          God is not a man.
          God does not have a physical body.
          God is Spirit.

          You need to take the text at FACE VALUE, and for what it ACTUALLY means, not what you "want" it to mean:

          Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

          1Sam. 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

          Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.



          And finally, you bring up "Jesus", which many Mormons do to try to defend the idea of "exaltation unto gods", and God having a body of flesh.

          One small problem, however...

          Jesus was God BEFORE He took on His body of flesh. Prior to that, He had no flesh, because "flesh" is not part of the nature of God.

          John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
          [...]
          John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

          Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

          Was Jesus made "in the likeness of a fallen man"?
          Or was Jesus mad "in the likeness" of a physical, fleshly man?
          "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
          --------------------------------------------------------------------------
          "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
          but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
          -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

          Comment

          Working...
          X