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Mormons throwing the Bible under the bus (and the Book of Mormon too!)

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  • Mormons throwing the Bible under the bus (and the Book of Mormon too!)


    Funny thing... Mormons like to try to attack the Bible to try to denounce its teachings, and frequently look to the most LIBERAL scholars possible, to try to make the "best" case they can. Interestingly, Muslims do this as well, and take positions that would equally destroy their own Scriptures.

    Let's see whether the Mormons are willing to be CONSISTENT with their criticisms...

    Originally posted by BrotherofJared View Post
    No he didn't. Paul said that, who happened to be giving the word and was both a prophet and an apostle. Both are obviously not the case. They were not preserved, we haven't one single original. And from what we do have, we know that there have been changes made.
    I don't recall "Nephi" or "Mosiah" ever being "apostles" or "prophets".

    The Book of Mormon was "not preserved".
    We haven't ONE SINGLE ORIGINAL of the Book of Mormon.
    And from what we do have, we know that THERE HAVE BEEN CHANGES MADE (eg. "white and delightsome", vs. "pure and delightsome").

    So by the same standard (we have to be CONSISTENT), then the Book of Mormon is UNRELIABLE.

    Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post
    You do?!? What language did He say those things in? And what were the words He used? Here’s a hint: you don’t know. The earliest text you have is at least one language removed from the original conversation (probably two), written about 100 years after the events by the hand of someone who was never there. Tell me again how you have what God actually said?
    And with that standard, you have to THROW OUT the Book of Mormon!

    What language was the original text in? And what were the words used? Here's a hint: YOU DON'T KNOW.
    The earliest text of the Book of Mormon you have is at least ONE LANGUAGE removed from the original conversation (probably two).
    It was written about 2600 years.

    Tell me again how you have what God ACTUALLY said in the Book of Mormon?
    "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
    but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
    -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

  • #2
    Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
    Funny thing... Mormons like to try to attack the Bible to try to denounce its teachings, and frequently look to the most LIBERAL scholars possible, to try to make the "best" case they can. Interestingly, Muslims do this as well, and take positions that would equally destroy their own Scriptures.

    Let's see whether the Mormons are willing to be CONSISTENT with their criticisms...

    I don't recall "Nephi" or "Mosiah" ever being "apostles" or "prophets".

    The Book of Mormon was "not preserved".
    We haven't ONE SINGLE ORIGINAL of the Book of Mormon.
    And from what we do have, we know that THERE HAVE BEEN CHANGES MADE (eg. "white and delightsome", vs. "pure and delightsome").

    So by the same standard (we have to be CONSISTENT), then the Book of Mormon is UNRELIABLE.

    And with that standard, you have to THROW OUT the Book of Mormon!

    What language was the original text in? And what were the words used? Here's a hint: YOU DON'T KNOW.
    The earliest text of the Book of Mormon you have is at least ONE LANGUAGE removed from the original conversation (probably two).
    It was written about 2600 years.

    Tell me again how you have what God ACTUALLY said in the Book of Mormon?
    You used the words reliable and unreliable as though they represented a binary. They don’t. They represent a spectrum.

    Far more important than the relative reliablility of the volume of scripture you are reading (Bible or Book of Mormon) would be the reliability of your own intellectual and spiritual preparation. God could hand you an original scripture text perfect in every word and you would still draw from it an imperfect understanding.

    We have been informed that the original language of the Book of Mormon was a form of reformed Egyptian. The Book of Mormon that we have available today is one language removed from the original as long as you are reading in English, two languages removed if you are reading in some other language (even if you are reading in Hebrew).

    The Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God so the end result is far more correct that anything produced by man alone. This doesn’t make the Book of Mormon perfect, it just makes it far closer to perfect than anything else we have.

    Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (this time using Mormon would have been incorrect!) hold both the Book of Mormon and the Bible to be imperfect but still canonized scripture. We read them and seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost to direct our understanding.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post
      You used the words reliable and unreliable as though they represented a binary. They don’t. They represent a spectrum.

      Far more important than the relative reliablility of the volume of scripture you are reading (Bible or Book of Mormon) would be the reliability of your own intellectual and spiritual preparation. God could hand you an original scripture text perfect in every word and you would still draw from it an imperfect understanding.
      How ironic!

      You use "intellectual" and "spiritual" as if they are binary (ie. mutually exclusive).
      They are not.

      But you are grasping for straws and ASSUMING that Mormons have a better "spiritual" understanding of Scripture than Christians do.
      I say, PROVE IT.

      I also say your claim reeks of Gnosticism.

      Jesus and the apostles quoted Scripture to strangers with the expectation that the words and message could be adequately understood without any "spiritual" help.

      Language is made of WORDS.
      Language is intended to be UNDERSTOOD.
      That is language's entire PURPOSE.

      We don't need "spiritual" help to understand the message in Scripture.
      What the Spirit does is TESTIFY that the message is true.

      People can believe what Scripture states.
      Or they can choose to NOT believe what Scripture states.

      But the MEANING of Scripture (since it is a written text) is comprehendable to all.

      So you simply don't know what you're talking about.

      We have been informed that the original language of the Book of Mormon was a form of reformed Egyptian.
      So you CLAIM.
      But we DO NOT HAVE the original.
      And we have NO EVIDENCE that "reformed Egyptian" was even an actual language.
      And we have NO SCHOLARS who can read "reformed Egyptian" to check the veracity of the "translation".

      We have to simply go by the EMPTY and self-serving claims of Mormons.

      The Book of Mormon that we have available today is one language removed from the original as long as you are reading in English, two languages removed if you are reading in some other language (even if you are reading in Hebrew).
      You don't KNOW that.
      You've never seen the original.
      You don't even know of the original "reformed Egyptian" is even a REAL LANGUAGE.
      (Hint: It isn't.)

      The Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God so the end result is far more correct that anything produced by man alone.
      That's simply silly.

      The Greek term "anthropoi" means "men" (or "people"), whether it is translated by men or translated by God.
      The Greek term, "ouranos" means "heaven", whether it is translated by men or translated by God.

      You try to paint a ridiculous picture that people are unable to accurately (or competely) translate a text, and only God can do it.
      That's silly.

      Further, God didn't translate the Book of Mormon.
      First of all, it was (allegedly) written in a NON-EXISTENT language.
      Secondly, if it was "translated" at all, the "translation" was done by Joseph Smith, not by God.

      This doesn’t make the Book of Mormon perfect, it just makes it far closer to perfect than anything else we have.
      So Mormons CLAIM.

      But there are MANY reasons to not believe the Book of Mormon actually came from God;
      - the overuse of "and it came to pass..."
      - the existence of the French, "adieu";
      - the anachronistic use of "Christ" (Jews in 600 BC would not know any Greek terms);
      - the widespread (and anachronistic) plagiarism of the KJV, along with KJV errors;
      - etc.
      "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------
      "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
      but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
      -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
        Funny thing... Mormons like to try to attack the Bible to try to denounce its teachings...
        False accusations are indeed funny things....sometimes.

        1. Prove your accusation that Mormons try to attack the Bible.
        2.Prove your other accusation that Mormons LIKE to try attacking the Bible.
        ...whenever a person's religious conversation dwells... on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition-C.S. Lewis

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

          We don't need "spiritual" help to understand the message in Scripture.
          Wow.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
            Funny thing... Mormons like to try to attack the Bible to try to denounce its teachings, and frequently look to the most LIBERAL scholars possible, to try to make the "best" case they can. Interestingly, Muslims do this as well, and take positions that would equally destroy their own Scriptures.

            Let's see whether the Mormons are willing to be CONSISTENT with their criticisms...



            I don't recall "Nephi" or "Mosiah" ever being "apostles" or "prophets".

            The Book of Mormon was "not preserved".
            We haven't ONE SINGLE ORIGINAL of the Book of Mormon.
            And from what we do have, we know that THERE HAVE BEEN CHANGES MADE (eg. "white and delightsome", vs. "pure and delightsome").

            So by the same standard (we have to be CONSISTENT), then the Book of Mormon is UNRELIABLE.



            And with that standard, you have to THROW OUT the Book of Mormon!

            What language was the original text in? And what were the words used? Here's a hint: YOU DON'T KNOW.
            The earliest text of the Book of Mormon you have is at least ONE LANGUAGE removed from the original conversation (probably two).
            It was written about 2600 years.

            Tell me again how you have what God ACTUALLY said in the Book of Mormon?
            Notice how quickly the Mormon attacks the Bible, but is silent about the Book of Mormon? Typical of cultists.
            Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
              Funny thing... Mormons like to try to attack the Bible to try to denounce its teachings, and frequently look to the most LIBERAL scholars possible, to try to make the "best" case they can. Interestingly, Muslims do this as well, and take positions that would equally destroy their own Scriptures.

              Let's see whether the Mormons are willing to be CONSISTENT with their criticisms...



              I don't recall "Nephi" or "Mosiah" ever being "apostles" or "prophets".

              The Book of Mormon was "not preserved".
              We haven't ONE SINGLE ORIGINAL of the Book of Mormon.
              And from what we do have, we know that THERE HAVE BEEN CHANGES MADE (eg. "white and delightsome", vs. "pure and delightsome").

              So by the same standard (we have to be CONSISTENT), then the Book of Mormon is UNRELIABLE.



              And with that standard, you have to THROW OUT the Book of Mormon!

              What language was the original text in? And what were the words used? Here's a hint: YOU DON'T KNOW.
              The earliest text of the Book of Mormon you have is at least ONE LANGUAGE removed from the original conversation (probably two).
              It was written about 2600 years.

              Tell me again how you have what God ACTUALLY said in the Book of Mormon?
              Chuckle... the Book of Mormon is the Keystone of our Religion Theo... without the Book of Mormon it all comes crumbling down...

              Once we realize how the Lord feels about this book, it should not surprise us that He also gives us solemn warnings about how we receive it. After indicating that those who receive the Book of Mormon with faith, working righteousness, will receive a crown of eternal glory (see D&C 20:14), the Lord follows with this warning: “But those who harden their hearts in unbelief, and reject it, it shall turn to their own condemnation” (D&C 20:15).

              Ezra Taft Benson.
              A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. Proverbs

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                We don't need "spiritual" help to understand the message in Scripture.
                .
                Wow.. i agree with others. Wow. this is precious example of just how far from God our critics have fallen.
                “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” -- George Carlin

                We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideals of Christianity, our movement is Christian. - Adolf Hitler

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by oceancoast View Post
                  Wow.. i agree with others. Wow. this is precious example of just how far from God our critics have fallen.
                  Well said by all:

                  Romans 8:

                  6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

                  1 Corinthians 2:

                  10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
                  11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but [by] the Spirit of God.
                  12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
                  13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
                  14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

                  2 Peter 1:

                  20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
                  21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
                  zerinus
                  Keep Calm!
                  I am a Mormon!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    One can understand Scripture on an intellectual level, without the indwelling Holy Spirit. Even an atheist can do so. But to understand fully--and and accept and believe--what Scripture says on a SPIRITUAL level takes the indwelling HS:

                    [quote] 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 English Standard Version (ESV)

                    13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

                    14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.[/quote[
                    "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                    "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                    "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                    "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                    "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      [QUOTE=Bonnie;n5671495]One can understand Scripture on an intellectual level, without the indwelling Holy Spirit. Even an atheist can do so. But to understand fully--and and accept and believe--what Scripture says on a SPIRITUAL level takes the indwelling HS:

                      1 Corinthians 2:13-15 English Standard Version (ESV)

                      13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

                      14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.[/quote[
                      As we've seen here, Mormons really know nothing about the Bible, unless we consider their occasional quote gleaned from sites like FAIR knowledge. It's a shame, but by refusing to submit to God's Word, they have submitter to another's.
                      Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by zerinus View Post
                        Romans 8:

                        6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
                        Um, that doesn't address our ability to comprehend words written on a page of Scripture.

                        1 Corinthians 2:

                        10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
                        This isn't saying that God magically "places" understanding in our minds.
                        God revealed these things INTO HIS SCRIPTURE "by his Spirit".

                        He revealed them in WORDS, and we can UNDERSTAND the WORDS.

                        13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
                        14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
                        Ironically, the above is basically saying the same thing as 2 Pet. 1:20-21, which the Mormons TWIST OUT OF CONTEXT (why? Because they have to try to justify the need for "prophets", contrary to Heb. 1:1-2).

                        2 Peter 1:
                        20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
                        21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


                        This does NOT means that we have to have the Holy Ghost to "interpret" Scripture.
                        It is simply saying that the prophecy of Scripture is not GIVEN by "any private interpretation".

                        What it is saying is that when we read Scripture, we can have confidence that it is NOT merely the "opinions" or "interpretations" of those writing Scripture.

                        "holy men of God spake [NOT of their] private interpretation";
                        "holy men of God speak AS THEY WERE MOVED BY THE HOLY GHOST".

                        The meaning is plain by any standard interpretation of the text.

                        But of course, the LDS interpretation comes with many problems:

                        1) The LDS interpretation is CONTRARY to what the text actually says;

                        2) The LDS interpretation teaches a form of "Gnosticism", a "secret teaching" that one cannot get from reading the text alone, but one needs an "interpreter", a "prophet", in order to receive the meaning;

                        3) If a "prophet" is needed to explain the meaning of the verse, then who is needed to explain the PROPHET's explanation of the meaning of the verse? Or if no explanation is needed for the second prophet, why wasn't it simply written according to the explanation of the second prophet, so that no "interpretation" would be needed"?

                        4) In actual practice, Mormon "wannabe" apologists reject this verse every day, when they quote and PROCLAIM meanings of Scriptures WITHOUT the benefit of "prophet interpretation".

                        5) The Mormon interpretation is CONTRADICTORY to the repeated expectation that the everyday reader of Scripture is expected to be able to understand the plain text:

                        Acts 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

                        John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
                        6) The Mormon interpretation is fallacious.... We are to examine the Scriptures daily (Acts 17:11) to check the teachings of "prophets", but apparently we have to accept the prophets' proclamations of what those same Scriptures are allegedly "teaching". So this gives us NO WAY of verifying valid prophets (which is a necessary for Mormonism, as they need a way of preventing the identification of their false prophets).

                        7) If we need "prophets" to interpret Scripture, that defeats the purpose of Scripture. ("Here's Scripture. You can't understand it, we have to tell you what it means, but here it is anyway.")
                        "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                        but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                        -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                          Notice how quickly the Mormon attacks the Bible, but is silent about the Book of Mormon? Typical of cultists.
                          Without the Bible, the BoM would not have any gravitas or draw at all. The BoM relies to a large part on plagiarisms from Bible, but nothing in the Bible is clarified by any passages in the BoM. We also find glaring contradictions of theology in the BoM, and neither theology explained in the BoM has been the theology of SLC LDS Mormonism. It is hard for anyone to make the case that the BoM is inspired when the theology in it is so schizoid. In the OT in Deuteronomy 6:4 (the Shma), Moses revealed that Yahweh/the Godhead was a unity (echad in the Hebrew), but the Shma never meant that God/Godhead was polytheistic as heterodox of Mormonism teaches. Later, certain Jewish sages changed the Hebrew word 'echad' to 'yachid,' which indicated an absolute"ONE" in response to Christianity and some Gnostic cults.

                          It is also true that the alleged spirit that tells Mormons that the BoM is 'true' or the actual word of God is not the same Holy Spirit that reveals biblical truths. A reason for that may be because one of the current explanations for the Mormon holy ghost is that he needs a physical body and a celestial wife to complete the requirements for godhood. IOW, all the Mormon gods once weren't gods at all, and before their alleged spiritual begetting, they didn't exist as spiritual or physical beings anywhere in the universe. This type of teaching is found in the KFD, (William Clayton version): "God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all. He could not create himself— Intelligence exists— upon a self existent principle— is a spirit from age to age & no creation about it" and Abraham 3:18 teaches; "spirits ... have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal." This would indicate just how feeble the gods of the Mormon pantheon actually are, and just how limited their powers of creation are in relation to Yahweh.

                          One may say that they believe what they believe because of faith, but unlike the faith of Mormons, the faith of Christians is bolstered by the fact that many places spoken of in the Bible still exist, and many places that have only been spoken of in the Bible have actually been discovered. While Lidar has not been the magic carpet that has revealed any BoM civilizations, it has helped in discovering formerly unknown Mayan cities. Archaeologically speaking, there is no comparison between alleged BoM archaeology and the numerous actual archaeological discoveries supporting both OT & NT claims. Mormons are free to spout any claims about their heterodox religion, but in truth, the BoM has far too many anachronisms, plagiarisms, lacks credible proofs,teaches conflicting theologies, etc. than to be considered a tome that is inspired by the true and living God. These issues do not include alleged scribal errors or printers/publishers mistakes, but are endemic throughout the entire BoM itself. IOW; false teachings and theology can be found in every single volume of the Mormon standard works, sans the KJV.
                          "You have just constructed a straw man so large you could burn it in the desert and hold an annoying festival around it"


                          "One's personal world view can be so powerful that it blinds them to any evidence that contradicts it"

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