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Undoing the "Men Become Gods" Mormon Heresy

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  • Undoing the "Men Become Gods" Mormon Heresy

    Mormons always appeal to Ps. 82:6 to prove that they are on their way to becoming gods. This psalm is speaking of judges who do not judge honestly. These judges are called in Hebrew "elohim" because they stand in the place of God rendering judgment to Israel. They have failed in their calling, and are now being judged by the Only True Elohim, YHWH. The Hebrews used the term "elohim" to refer to judges in the Book of Exodus:

    Exodus 21: "2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

    5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

    Note that the word "judges" is "elohim" in the original Hebrew, and the context indicates that the term refers to those who make judgments in such cases.

    Exodus 22:

    9 “For any kind of trespass, whether it concerns an ox, a donkey, a sheep, or clothing, or for any kind of lost thing which another claims to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whomever the judges condemn shall pay double to his neighbor.

    In both cases, elohim is translated as "judges," and is done so in the King James Version passed out by so-called Mormon missionaries. Also, "elohim" is translated as "judges" in the Joseph Smith version of the Bible.

    Therefore, since the term "elohim" often refers to men who judge in the place of YHWH, why do Mormons not see that Ps. 82:6 is referring to dishonest judges, which in context asserts human beings, not immortal gods?



    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

  • #2
    Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
    Mormons always appeal to Ps. 82:6 to prove that they are on their way to becoming gods.
    Really? Is that actually an honest and valid accusation?

    Let's analyze your accusation.

    1. Is the accusation that Mormons always appeal to Ps. 82:6 a demonstrable fact? Can you back up your accusation with evidence?

    CALL. FOR. REFERENCES.

    2. Is the accusation that Mormons attempt to prove that they are on their way to becoming gods a demonstrable fact? Can you back up your accusation with evidence?

    If so, then I guess I am not a Mormon, because I don't always appeal to Ps. 82:6. In fact, and seldom--if EVER--appeal to it.
    If I DID, then I would never use it to prove that I am on my way to becoming a god. Instead, since I have good critical thinking skills, any accusation such as yours would be challenged by a reference to the LDS doctrine that human beings have THE POTENTIAL to become gods, which is NOT what your accusation says.

    And any literature that I would use to support the idea that human beings have THE POTENTIAL to become gods, would likely come from the ECFs and from notable, eminent CHRISTIANS such as C.S. LEWIS.

    Now, if you were wondering how THOSE CHRISTIANS interpreted Ps. 82:6, I could tell you.
    But, in contradiction to your accusation, I wouldn't be the one appealing to that verse.

    Any questions regarding the refutation of your accusations?

    This psalm is speaking of judges who do not judge honestly.
    Are we supposed to just take your word on that? Why should we? Why shouldn't we believe what Christian theologians with far more training and reputation than you have said about what it's speaking of?


    If "gods" means "judges who judge unrighteously," then couldn't it be argued that extremist antiMormons are gods--and therefore are being hypocritical when they accuse Mormons of believing THEY can become gods?
    Last edited by Mod8; 11-03-18, 03:13 AM. Reason: ALERT / no violation
    ...whenever a person's religious conversation dwells... on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition-C.S. Lewis

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
      Mormons always appeal to Ps. 82:6 to prove that they are on their way to becoming gods. This psalm is speaking of judges who do not judge honestly. These judges are called in Hebrew "elohim" because they stand in the place of God rendering judgment to Israel. They have failed in their calling, and are now being judged by the Only True Elohim, YHWH. The Hebrews used the term "elohim" to refer to judges in the Book of Exodus:

      Exodus 21: "2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

      5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

      Note that the word "judges" is "elohim" in the original Hebrew, and the context indicates that the term refers to those who make judgments in such cases.

      Exodus 22:

      9 “For any kind of trespass, whether it concerns an ox, a donkey, a sheep, or clothing, or for any kind of lost thing which another claims to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whomever the judges condemn shall pay double to his neighbor.

      In both cases, elohim is translated as "judges," and is done so in the King James Version passed out by so-called Mormon missionaries. Also, "elohim" is translated as "judges" in the Joseph Smith version of the Bible.

      Therefore, since the term "elohim" often refers to men who judge in the place of YHWH, why do Mormons not see that Ps. 82:6 is referring to dishonest judges, which in context asserts human beings, not immortal gods?
      There are too many problems with that exegesis. Firstly, verse 6 explains why they are called "gods":

      Psalms 82:

      6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


      They are called "gods" because they are the "children of the most High," not because they are judges. And being the "children of the most High" applies to all Israel, not just to judges:

      Deuteronomy 14:

      1 Ye are the children of the Lord your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
      2 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.


      Judging righteously is also required of all people, not just of those who have been appointed to be judges:

      John 7:

      24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


      Secondly, in John chapter 10 Jesus also applies that scripture to all Israel, not just to judges; and then uses it to justify his own claim to divinity:

      John 10:

      34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
      35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
      36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
      37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.


      In verse 35 Jesus applies the scripture to all Israel, not just to judges; and then in the remaining two verses he uses it to justify his own claim to divinity. He is saying, "Why do you accuse me of blasphemy for claiming divinity, when the Bible calls you a god!" If your exegesis was correct, he would be saying, "Why do you accuse me of blasphemy for claiming divinity, when the Bible calls you a judge?" which would make sense to anybody.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by zerinus View Post

        There are too many problems with that exegesis. Firstly, verse 6 explains why they are called "gods":

        Psalms 82:

        6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


        They are called "gods" because they are the "children of the most High," not because they are judges. And being the "children of the most High" applies to all Israel, not just to judges:

        Deuteronomy 14:

        1 Ye are the children of the Lord your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
        2 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.


        Judging righteously is also required of all people, not just of those who have been appointed to be judges:

        John 7:

        24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


        Secondly, in John chapter 10 Jesus also applies that scripture to all Israel, not just to judges; and then uses it to justify his own claim to divinity:

        John 10:

        34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
        35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
        36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
        37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.


        In verse 35 Jesus applies the scripture to all Israel, not just to judges; and then in the remaining two verses he uses it to justify his own claim to divinity. He is saying, "Why do you accuse me of blasphemy for claiming divinity, when the Bible calls you a god!" If your exegesis was correct, he would be saying, "Why do you accuse me of blasphemy for claiming divinity, when the Bible calls you a judge?" which would make sense to anybody.
        James Talmage, a Mormon Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 is not about becoming gods.
        "In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds." (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501). -- Mormons often quote Psalm 82:6 which Jesus quoted in John 10:30-34 to show that we can become gods. Rather than them believing the truth from a Christian, perhaps they will believe it from their own apostle.
        ... Psalm 82:1, 6, where ʼelo·himʹ is used of men, human judges in Israel.
        They were gods in their capacity as representatives of and spokesmen for Jehovah.
        Similarly, Moses was told that he was to serve as “God” to Aaron and to Pharaoh. (see Exodus 4:16)

        James Talmage, a Mormon Faux Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 is not about becoming gods.
        8. Divinely Appointed Judges Called "Gods."-In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called "gods." To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title "gods." Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Ex. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges "gods," and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds.

        Footnotes

        1. John 10:22-39.

        2. Also rendered Kislev, Chisleu, and Cisleu. See Zech. 7:1.

        3. Josephus, Antiquities, xii, 5:3-5. See Ezra 6:17, 18;

        And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you ... ye shall curse them; And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies (Doctrine and Covenants, 103:24-25)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Ivanhoe View Post
          James Talmage, a Mormon Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 is not about becoming gods.
          "In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds." (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501). -- Mormons often quote Psalm 82:6 which Jesus quoted in John 10:30-34 to show that we can become gods. Rather than them believing the truth from a Christian, perhaps they will believe it from their own apostle.
          ... Psalm 82:1, 6, where ʼelo·himʹ is used of men, human judges in Israel.
          They were gods in their capacity as representatives of and spokesmen for Jehovah.
          Similarly, Moses was told that he was to serve as “God” to Aaron and to Pharaoh. (see Exodus 4:16)

          James Talmage, a Mormon Faux Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 is not about becoming gods.
          8. Divinely Appointed Judges Called "Gods."-In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called "gods." To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title "gods." Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Ex. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges "gods," and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds.

          Footnotes

          1. John 10:22-39.

          2. Also rendered Kislev, Chisleu, and Cisleu. See Zech. 7:1.

          3. Josephus, Antiquities, xii, 5:3-5. See Ezra 6:17, 18;
          James Talmage was wrong. His exegesis was incorrect. The correct exegesis is the one I have given above.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by zerinus View Post

            There are too many problems with that exegesis. Firstly, verse 6 explains why they are called "gods":

            Psalms 82:

            6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


            They are called "gods" because they are the "children of the most High," not because they are judges. And being the "children of the most High" applies to all Israel, not just to judges:

            Deuteronomy 14:

            1 Ye are the children of the Lord your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
            2 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.


            Judging righteously is also required of all people, not just of those who have been appointed to be judges:

            John 7:

            24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


            Secondly, in John chapter 10 Jesus also applies that scripture to all Israel, not just to judges; and then uses it to justify his own claim to divinity:

            John 10:

            34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
            35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
            36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
            37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.


            In verse 35 Jesus applies the scripture to all Israel, not just to judges; and then in the remaining two verses he uses it to justify his own claim to divinity. He is saying, "Why do you accuse me of blasphemy for claiming divinity, when the Bible calls you a god!" If your exegesis was correct, he would be saying, "Why do you accuse me of blasphemy for claiming divinity, when the Bible calls you a judge?" which would make sense to anybody.
            If there is only ONE True God, and if no God was formed before or after him, according to Isa. 43:10, the problem with "exegesis" belongs to your cult. Jesus was referring to the fact that certain humans, such as the judges, were titled "elohim," as we've said right along. Why shouldn't He, the Creator of those "elohim" (judges) be styled, "the Son of God." It's as simple as that. Nowhere does the Lord teach that there is more than one God, and He also teaches that unless YOU know that He is I AM, you will die in your sins.
            Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by zerinus View Post

              James Talmage was wrong. His exegesis was incorrect. The correct exegesis is the one I have given above.
              Wasn't James Talmage a Mormon Apostle ? How could he be incorrect ?


              https://i.imgur.com/5CdQOq3.jpg
              And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you ... ye shall curse them; And whomsoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies (Doctrine and Covenants, 103:24-25)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by zerinus View Post
                which would make sense to anybody.
                Your avatar says "I am a Mormon". Wouldn't it be more appropriate, since your "religious organization" has Rebranded itself, for YOU to follow suit, and relabel yourself to be an "LDS"???



                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ivanhoe View Post
                  Wasn't James Talmage a Mormon Apostle ? How could he be incorrect ?
                  Wasn't St. Peter an early Christian apostle? How could HE be incorrect about something?

                  After you answer that, you will have your answer.
                  ...whenever a person's religious conversation dwells... on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition-C.S. Lewis

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    "Mormons always...""Mormons never..."

                    to YOU 'never' or YOU always.

                    "hasty generalization,' or 'overgeneralization' is a fallacy..and does major damage to the argument when someone uses it.

                    Just sayin'
                    Providing a proper reference/citation for a quote says nothing. Refusing to provide a proper reference/citation for a quote says everything: it’s a credibility killer. Nothing says “I’m a liar” like refusing to provide citations.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                      If there is only ONE True God, and if no God was formed before or after him, according to Isa. 43:10, the problem with "exegesis" belongs to your cult. Jesus was referring to the fact that certain humans, such as the judges, were titled "elohim," as we've said right along. Why shouldn't He, the Creator of those "elohim" (judges) be styled, "the Son of God." It's as simple as that. Nowhere does the Lord teach that there is more than one God, and He also teaches that unless YOU know that He is I AM, you will die in your sins.
                      I have given the correct exegesis. Refute the exegesis, or stop wasting time.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ivanhoe View Post

                        Wasn't James Talmage a Mormon Apostle ? How could he be incorrect ?
                        In the same way that Peter was wrong. In the same way that Paul was wrong. In the same way that any prophet or Apostle can be (and have been) wrong. Where does it say in the Bible that prophets or Apostles are infallible?
                        Last edited by zerinus; 11-03-18, 11:50 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                          Your avatar says "I am a Mormon". Wouldn't it be more appropriate, since your "religious organization" has Rebranded itself, for YOU to follow suit, and relabel yourself to be an "LDS"???
                          I like "Mormon" better!

                          Comment

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