Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

The Mormon Persecution Scam

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Mormon Persecution Scam

    I'm seriously tired to the same Mormons here bringing up how "persecuted" they were. For crying out loud, in Missouri they acted like traitors, threatening to take away lands from long time residents of that State, fighting with the militia, and causing hostility with their neighbors due to Sidney "the loon" Rigdon's "Salt Sermon."

    "Rigdon's July 4th oration was a speech delivered by Mormon leader Sidney Rigdon during a 4th of July celebration in Far West Missouri in 1838. Rigdon was first counselor to, and often spokesman for, Joseph Smith, Jr..

    The oration was meant as a Mormon "declaration of independence" against "mobocrats" and Anti-=Mormon persecution. In his speech, Rigdon declared:

    We take God and all the holy angels to witness this day, that we warn all men in the name of Jesus Christ, to come on us no more forever. For from this hour, we will bear it no more, our rights shall no more be trampled on with impunity. The man or the set of men, who attempts it, does it at the expense of their lives. And that mob that comes on us to disturb us; it shall be between us and them a war of extermination; for we will follow them till the last drop of their blood is spilled, or else they will have to exterminate us: for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses, and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed.—Remember it then all MEN.We will never be the aggressors, we will infringe on the rights of no people; but shall stand for our own until death. We claim our own rights, and are willing that all others shall enjoy theirs.No man shall be at liberty to come into our streets, to threaten us with mobs, for if he does, he shall atone for it before he leaves the place, neither shall he be at liberty, to vilify and slander any of us, for suffer it we will not in this place.
    The speech alarmed local non-Mormons attending the celebration. Later, the church presidency published the July 4th Oration, causing considerable agitation and further stoking anti-Mormon sentiment throughout northwestern Missouri. Many contemporaries and later historians cite the July 4th Oration as a contributing factor to the 1838 Mormon War.

    The July 4th Oration is often confused with the Salt Sermon" (Wikipedia)

    Is this the kind of loud-mouthed boasting that one hears from true Christians? These were simply physical threats, and when coupled with their political "gang block-voting," stirred up a lot of trouble in Missouri for these not so innocent cultists. You don't invade a state, tell the people that some "god" gave it to you (according to the words of your degenerate prophet), and then physically threaten the citizens. This demonstrates forever the nature of Mormonism - it's nothing but a militant form of Freemasonry, coupled with pagan-Gnosticism, and a degenerated moral base which supported white slavery (and that's what Mormon polygamy was). And today's Mormons go to the mat protecting their cult from any form of criticism, closing their eyes to a history steeped in blood shed and immoral behavior. They are proud now of their polygamous ancestors, but ignore the genetic problems that it caused, not to mention the hideous misogyny that resulted in women being treated like chattel (i.e., their false apostle Kimball said he thought nothing of taking another wife than buying another cow). If anybody thinks it's normal to share one's husband with another woman (especially a mother, daughter or sister, as Smith practiced) they have been so thoroughly brainwashed about that inhumane practice that I doubt they will ever be socialized into normal societal standards. Not to mention how filthy and unsanitary that practice is. But the Mormons here defend it because Joe Smith practiced it.

    So, we had Mormons claiming that they were the rightful owners of Missouri, which these deceived people claimed was Zion (today that is obviously laughable), threatening long-time Misourians who opposed their goal. When you tell people that you really own their land, people can get a little testy, to say the least. But this the Mormons did, spurred on by the lustful Smith who saw himself as King of a new empire. And naturally, violence erupted - but remember who first threatened "extermination!" Not Missouri, but Sidney Rigdon, who was himself mentally off. Rigdon, an apostate Baptist, then apostate Campbellite, pretty much fronted for Joseph Smith. In MIssouri, and the Mormons, not being Christians, murderously acted against them.

    :https://listverse.com/2016/08/29/10-...ri-mormon-war/

    So much for Mormon protestations that they are innocent - they were as guilty as any Missourian at Haun's Mill. They brought on their on extradition from the State, and went on in history to engage in the "Utah War" against the Federal government. Treasonous acts are found throughout the history of Mormonism and its leaders.

    The tall tales of Mormon persecution are a scam, geared to get those who do not know the real history of this cult to feel sorry for them.

    Last edited by Catherine Aurelia; 11-08-18, 02:18 PM.
    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

  • #2
    Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
    I'm seriously tired to the same Mormons here bringing up how "persecuted" they were. For crying out loud, in Missouri they acted like traitors, threatening to take away lands from long time residents of that State, fighting with the militia, and causing hostility with their neighbors due to Sidney "the loon" Rigdon's "Extermination Speech."

    "Rigdon's July 4th oration was a speech delivered by Mormon leader Sidney Rigdon during a 4th of July celebration in Far West Missouri in 1838. Rigdon was first counselor to, and often spokesman for, Joseph Smith, Jr..

    The oration was meant as a Mormon "declaration of independence" against "mobocrats" and Anti-=Mormon persecution. In his speech, Rigdon declared:

    We take God and all the holy angels to witness this day, that we warn all men in the name of Jesus Christ, to come on us no more forever. For from this hour, we will bear it no more, our rights shall no more be trampled on with impunity. The man or the set of men, who attempts it, does it at the expense of their lives. And that mob that comes on us to disturb us; it shall be between us and them a war of extermination; for we will follow them till the last drop of their blood is spilled, or else they will have to exterminate us: for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses, and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed.—Remember it then all MEN.We will never be the aggressors, we will infringe on the rights of no people; but shall stand for our own until death. We claim our own rights, and are willing that all others shall enjoy theirs.No man shall be at liberty to come into our streets, to threaten us with mobs, for if he does, he shall atone for it before he leaves the place, neither shall he be at liberty, to vilify and slander any of us, for suffer it we will not in this place.
    The speech alarmed local non-Mormons attending the celebration. Later, the church presidency published the July 4th Oration, causing considerable agitation and further stoking anti-Mormon sentiment throughout northwestern Missouri. Many contemporaries and later historians cite the July 4th Oration as a contributing factor to the 1838 Mormon War.

    The July 4th Oration is often confused with the Salt Sermon" (Wikipedia)

    Is this the kind of loud-mouthed boasting that one hears from true Christians? These were simply physical threats, and when coupled with their political "gang block-voting," stirred up a lot of trouble in Missouri for these not so innocent cultists. You don't invade a state, tell the people that some "god" gave it to you (according to the words of your degenerate prophet), and then physically threaten the citizens. This demonstrates forever the nature of Mormonism - it's nothing but a militant form of Freemasonry, coupled with pagan-Gnosticism, and a degenerated moral base which supported white slavery (and that's what Mormon polygamy was). And today's Mormons go to the mat protecting their cult from any form of criticism, closing their eyes to a history steeped in blood shed and immoral behavior. They are proud now of their polygamous ancestors, but ignore the genetic problems that it caused, not to mention the hideous misogyny that resulted in women being treated like chattel (i.e., their false apostle Kimball said he thought nothing of taking another wife than buying another cow). If anybody thinks it's normal to share one's husband with another woman (especially a mother, daughter or sister, as Smith practiced) they have been so thoroughly brainwashed about that inhumane practice that I doubt they will ever be socialized into normal societal standards. Not to mention how filthy and unsanitary that practice is. But the Mormons here defend it because Joe Smith practiced it.

    So, we had Mormons claiming that they were the rightful owners of Missouri, which these deceived people claimed was Zion (today that is obviously laughable), threatening long-time Misourians who opposed their goal. When you tell people that you really own their land, people can get a little testy, to say the least. But this the Mormons did, spurred on by the lustful Smith who saw himself as King of a new empire. And naturally, violence erupted - but remember who first threatened "extermination!" Not Missouri, but Sidney Rigdon, who was himself mentally off. Rigdon, an apostate Baptist, then apostate Campbellite, pretty much fronted for Joseph Smith. In MIssouri, and the Mormons, not being Christians, murderously acted against them.

    :https://listverse.com/2016/08/29/10-...ri-mormon-war/

    So much for Mormon protestations that they are innocent - they were as guilty as any Missourian at Haun's Mill. They brought on their on extradition from the State, and went on in history to engage in the "Utah War" against the Federal government. Treasonous acts are found throughout the history of Mormonism and its leaders.

    The tall tales of Mormon persecution are a scam, geared to get those who do not know the real history of this cult to feel sorry for them.
    Name of speech corrected in first sentence.
    Last edited by Catherine Aurelia; 11-08-18, 04:38 PM.
    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by NRA-Jeff
      Huh? We don't scam people into persecuting us. Antis seem to do it of their own volition.
      What would CS Lewis say?
      When's the last time YOU were persecuted Jeff?

      This thread doesn't pertains to C.S. Lewis; and as an Anglican he'd laugh his head off at what you believe!
      Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by NRA-Jeff
        You mean the people of Haun's Mill aren't actually dead?

        What's next'-you will tell us the women accused by overzealous, overjealous protestants of being witches ALSO weren't really persecuted- -the women just SCAMMED the totally innocent people of Salem into THINKIN' they'd been drowned or burned alive?
        Jeff, do you think 120 innocent men, women and children should have been brutally shot by Mormon priests at Mountain Meadows, most likely at Young's orders? These murders were a treasonous act. This isn't a joke, Jeff. Murder has no part in Christianity. It wasn't born-again believers who were shooting Mormons in Missouri, it was Missourians defending their State against an "invasion," (much like we see in our day), of outsiders coming in and claiming their "god" had given them others' land. Let me ask you, Jeff, if some Baptists came and claimed the Washinton, DC, Mormon temple as theirs, would you and other Mormons defend it?

        EDITED--divisive
        Last edited by Mod10; 11-09-18, 05:52 PM. Reason: alert; edited
        Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

        Comment


        • #5


          Now, would any thinking Mormon like to comment as to why violence by Mormons against fellow-citizens of this country is NOT treason? Isn't it possible that the Mormon cult invited what it deems to be "persecution" by its own irresponsible actions and aggressiveness? People don't throw rocks for no reason, folks. That is part of anger. Mormons come here and complain about how they are treated, while at the same time being vulgar and nasty to those they accuse of wrong. I have no sympathy for Mormons whatsoever. A huge, filthy rich cult like Mormonism has never apologized for Mountain Meadows, and I believe Americans should demand an apology and maybe reparation for Arkansas. Hit the Mormons where it hurts them the most - their bloated pocketbooks. Their greed is what describes them best.
          Last edited by Catherine Aurelia; 11-09-18, 10:10 AM.
          Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

            Jeff, do you think 120 innocent men, women and children should have been brutally shot by Mormon priests at Mountain Meadows, most likely at Young's orders? These murders were a treasonous act. This isn't a joke, Jeff. Murder has no part in Christianity. It wasn't born-again believers who were shooting Mormons in Missouri, it was Missourians defending their State against an "invasion," (much like we see in our day), of outsiders coming in and claiming their "god" had given them others' land. Let me ask you, Jeff, if some Baptists came and claimed the Washinton, DC, Mormon temple as theirs, would you and other Mormons defend it?

            Mormonism is and always has been a violent group, dedicated to a delusion and the promotion of Freemasonry as a religious system.
            So....you are justifying the Extermination Order, Haun's Mill, the mob murder of Joseph and his brother Hyrum...because of something some renegades going against the specific orders of the church did TWENTY YEARS LATER?

            If you are going to compare body counts, CA, so far it's over three thousand Mormon dead to less than 200 non-Mormon dead, and the MMM was committed by Mormons who were going against their beliefs, the rules, and the direct orders of the president of the church.

            ......and you have decided that NONE of the above; the burning of the Mormon printing press, the threatening of wholesale destruction if the people in the town that housed that press if they didn't leave in 24 hours, the looting of the general store there, the making of an entire group of people legal prey and their expulsion from their homes into 'winter quarters,' where as a DIRECT RESULT of that expulsion, one out of every ten people DIED of exposure, the sending of an army, the Edmunds Tucker act which did to the Mormons what has never been done to ANY other religion in the history of the USA, that is, confiscate all property, take away voting rights, ability to serve on juries and serve in an elected office BECAUSE OF HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS...

            The refusal to allow a duly elected Senator the right to serve his seat for FOUR years of his first term BECAUSE OF HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, even though he himself was not a polygamist and the church had stopped practicing polygamy?

            None of this, by you, is persecution?

            Tell me, CA.

            What would you call any of this stuff, if done to a Jew...or someone YOU think is a 'Christian?' The word is 'pogrom.'

            It's pretty classic, actually; Here is a list of incidents termed 'pogrom'

            Please scroll down, and notice that the word is not limited to the persecution of Jews, nor does it ALWAYS result in massacres. Some of them include defense and/or retribution by the target population.


            Nope, Catherine Aurelia, what was going on in the nineteenth (and into the early twentieth, with Sen. Smoot) was a pogrom. Definitely persecution.....

            And in every single one of those cases, the people engaging IN that pogrom justified themselves and their actions precisely the way you are doing in this thread. It's an almost concept for concept typical, historical repeat.

            You don't like Mormonism. I get the impression, from what you write, that you don't much like Mormons, either. That's certainly your right. Arguing against doctrine and practices is also your right. You even have every right to claim that everything done TO us was something we deserved, and that stuff like sending armies and Extermination Orders, and wholesale shooting of all the men in a village and the driving out of an entire people from a land (gee, does that sound familiar to anybody....???) is NOT 'persecution.'

            And I have the right, as well, to point out that your words and claims are very typical of those who engage in such persecution, who justify it, and who justify pogroms against those who disagree with them, and resent having their words and attitudes named as what they actually are.

            Those words are generally asterisked out when used in here. But if your target were Jewish, and you said the same things about what was done to THEM over the thousands of years that Christians have been persecuting them, you would be called an antisemite, with all the socially negative and nasty things that go with BEING an antisemite.

            Now Mormons haven't been persecuted to the extent Jews have. We haven't been around as long, for one thing. However, any Jew would certainly recognize the flavor of what WAS done to us in the nineteenth century. It's certainly not as if the 'Christians' around them didn't TRY hard to match the level of nastiness, right down to a diaspora.

            This thread, CA, makes me cringe. The attitude expressed within the OP makes me tired, and downright depressed over the human race. We don't change, do we? No matter how much history we live through, how much there is to learn from, we STILL persecute 'the other,' and we STILL find it justifiable to dehumanize, hurt and kill others for no reason other than that they don't believe as we do.

            .....................................and CA? ONE of the reasons I am a Latter-day saint, just one of them, is that alone among all the Christian churches I have looked at (and I've looked at a lot of 'em) WE have 'freedom of religion,' and toleration of other's beliefs, written into our 'creed,' or Articles of Faith. I mean, if YOU can find something similar in the official belief statements of any other Christian religion, I would appreciate it. I haven't found one.

            WE do not do what you are justifying.

            WE do not think that persecuting other people for the 'crime' of disagreeing with is is a good thing, even if they do show up in such numbers as to outvote us.

            The MMM, believe it or not, is a case in point. Those who did it, once the feds ALLOWED us to go after them, punished the perpetrators, excommunicated them and executed the leader. We do not now, and never have, supported or justified that event, unlike many of you, who have not only justified and excused what was done TO us (as you have done in your OP) but sometimes have wished that they could have participated in it.

            BTW, .what, precisely, happened to any of the people who killed the men at Haun's Mill? Those who murdered JS and his brother Hyrum? Those who burned MORMON property?

            Nothing at all. Congratulations. Rewards. bragging rights.

            You go right on claiming that we deserved everything that was done to us, that everything was just fine and dandy and perfectly acceptable. You just go on and do that.

            ......................and expose yourself for what you write is...all those words that are expressed with **** when typed in here.
            Cet animal est très méchant,
            Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

            Translation: "This animal is very bad; when you attack it, it defends itself."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by dianaiad View Post

              So....you are justifying the Extermination Order, Haun's Mill, the mob murder of Joseph and his brother Hyrum...because of something some renegades going against the specific orders of the church did TWENTY YEARS LATER?

              If you are going to compare body counts, CA, so far it's over three thousand Mormon dead to less than 200 non-Mormon dead, and the MMM was committed by Mormons who were going against their beliefs, the rules, and the direct orders of the president of the church.

              ......and you have decided that NONE of the above; the burning of the Mormon printing press, the threatening of wholesale destruction if the people in the town that housed that press if they didn't leave in 24 hours, the looting of the general store there, the making of an entire group of people legal prey and their expulsion from their homes into 'winter quarters,' where as a DIRECT RESULT of that expulsion, one out of every ten people DIED of exposure, the sending of an army, the Edmunds Tucker act which did to the Mormons what has never been done to ANY other religion in the history of the USA, that is, confiscate all property, take away voting rights, ability to serve on juries and serve in an elected office BECAUSE OF HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS...

              The refusal to allow a duly elected Senator the right to serve his seat for FOUR years of his first term BECAUSE OF HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, even though he himself was not a polygamist and the church had stopped practicing polygamy?

              None of this, by you, is persecution?

              Tell me, CA.

              What would you call any of this stuff, if done to a Jew...or someone YOU think is a 'Christian?' The word is 'pogrom.'

              It's pretty classic, actually; Here is a list of incidents termed 'pogrom'

              Please scroll down, and notice that the word is not limited to the persecution of Jews, nor does it ALWAYS result in massacres. Some of them include defense and/or retribution by the target population.


              Nope, Catherine Aurelia, what was going on in the nineteenth (and into the early twentieth, with Sen. Smoot) was a pogrom. Definitely persecution.....

              And in every single one of those cases, the people engaging IN that pogrom justified themselves and their actions precisely the way you are doing in this thread. It's an almost concept for concept typical, historical repeat.

              You don't like Mormonism. I get the impression, from what you write, that you don't much like Mormons, either. That's certainly your right. Arguing against doctrine and practices is also your right. You even have every right to claim that everything done TO us was something we deserved, and that stuff like sending armies and Extermination Orders, and wholesale shooting of all the men in a village and the driving out of an entire people from a land (gee, does that sound familiar to anybody....???) is NOT 'persecution.'

              And I have the right, as well, to point out that your words and claims are very typical of those who engage in such persecution, who justify it, and who justify pogroms against those who disagree with them, and resent having their words and attitudes named as what they actually are.

              Those words are generally asterisked out when used in here. But if your target were Jewish, and you said the same things about what was done to THEM over the thousands of years that Christians have been persecuting them, you would be called an antisemite, with all the socially negative and nasty things that go with BEING an antisemite.

              Now Mormons haven't been persecuted to the extent Jews have. We haven't been around as long, for one thing. However, any Jew would certainly recognize the flavor of what WAS done to us in the nineteenth century. It's certainly not as if the 'Christians' around them didn't TRY hard to match the level of nastiness, right down to a diaspora.

              This thread, CA, makes me cringe. The attitude expressed within the OP makes me tired, and downright depressed over the human race. We don't change, do we? No matter how much history we live through, how much there is to learn from, we STILL persecute 'the other,' and we STILL find it justifiable to dehumanize, hurt and kill others for no reason other than that they don't believe as we do.

              .....................................and CA? ONE of the reasons I am a Latter-day saint, just one of them, is that alone among all the Christian churches I have looked at (and I've looked at a lot of 'em) WE have 'freedom of religion,' and toleration of other's beliefs, written into our 'creed,' or Articles of Faith. I mean, if YOU can find something similar in the official belief statements of any other Christian religion, I would appreciate it. I haven't found one.

              WE do not do what you are justifying.

              WE do not think that persecuting other people for the 'crime' of disagreeing with is is a good thing, even if they do show up in such numbers as to outvote us.

              The MMM, believe it or not, is a case in point. Those who did it, once the feds ALLOWED us to go after them, punished the perpetrators, excommunicated them and executed the leader. We do not now, and never have, supported or justified that event, unlike many of you, who have not only justified and excused what was done TO us (as you have done in your OP) but sometimes have wished that they could have participated in it.

              BTW, .what, precisely, happened to any of the people who killed the men at Haun's Mill? Those who murdered JS and his brother Hyrum? Those who burned MORMON property?

              Nothing at all. Congratulations. Rewards. bragging rights.

              You go right on claiming that we deserved everything that was done to us, that everything was just fine and dandy and perfectly acceptable. You just go on and do that.

              ......................and expose yourself for what you write is...all those words that are expressed with **** when typed in here.
              Are you justifying Sidney Rigdon's "Extermination Order?"
              Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                Are you justifying Sidney Rigdon's "Extermination Order?"
                You mean the one that was not an order of any sort? (Though you are quite free to find where 'order' is used) where he said that the Mormons didn't want to start anything, that they believed that all people should believe as they wish, but that if they were attacked, they would defend themselves? THAT "Extermination Order," (which, of course, wasn't...) the one the Mormons, even though they WERE attacked , robbed and murdered, never acted on?

                They didn't defend themselves very well. In fact, they didn't defend themselves at all. So there's nothing TO justify. Nobody did anything about it. One man, making one speech, which the church leaders worried was too bombastic in the first place....and which does NOT issue any sort of 'extermination order,' unlike Bogg's Missouri executive order 44, which WAS official, enforced, and not rescinded until 1976.

                I do believe that there is only one case where someone became dead at Mormon hands, before the MMM; at the "Battle of Crooked River," where the Mormons were attempting to rescue some kidnapped Mormons, where the Missouri militia fired first at the Mormons who were attempting to negotiate, and in doing so, killed three of the Mormons?

                Read some history. Not the MRM or Saints Alive or other biased stuff. Just....history. unbiased, not put out by antis, not put out by Mormons. Just...the facts. Read Gov. Ford's book (well, he didn't like the Mormons all that much, but he was pretty disgusted by the other side, too). Read trial transcripts. Read SOMETHING other than stuff that strokes your fur the right way.


                And for crying out loud, ACTUALLY READ RIGDON'S JULY 4th speech. I gave you the text of the excerpts you love so much, IN CONTEXT, and it simply does not say what you claim it does.
                Last edited by dianaiad; 11-09-18, 12:30 PM.
                Cet animal est très méchant,
                Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

                Translation: "This animal is very bad; when you attack it, it defends itself."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by dianaiad View Post

                  So....you are justifying the Extermination Order, Haun's Mill, the mob murder of Joseph and his brother Hyrum...because of something some renegades going against the specific orders of the church did TWENTY YEARS LATER?

                  If you are going to compare body counts, CA, so far it's over three thousand Mormon dead to less than 200 non-Mormon dead, and the MMM was committed by Mormons who were going against their beliefs, the rules, and the direct orders of the president of the church.

                  ......and you have decided that NONE of the above; the burning of the Mormon printing press, the threatening of wholesale destruction if the people in the town that housed that press if they didn't leave in 24 hours, the looting of the general store there, the making of an entire group of people legal prey and their expulsion from their homes into 'winter quarters,' where as a DIRECT RESULT of that expulsion, one out of every ten people DIED of exposure, the sending of an army, the Edmunds Tucker act which did to the Mormons what has never been done to ANY other religion in the history of the USA, that is, confiscate all property, take away voting rights, ability to serve on juries and serve in an elected office BECAUSE OF HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS...

                  The refusal to allow a duly elected Senator the right to serve his seat for FOUR years of his first term BECAUSE OF HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, even though he himself was not a polygamist and the church had stopped practicing polygamy?

                  None of this, by you, is persecution?

                  Tell me, CA.

                  What would you call any of this stuff, if done to a Jew...or someone YOU think is a 'Christian?' The word is 'pogrom.'

                  It's pretty classic, actually; Here is a list of incidents termed 'pogrom'

                  Please scroll down, and notice that the word is not limited to the persecution of Jews, nor does it ALWAYS result in massacres. Some of them include defense and/or retribution by the target population.


                  Nope, Catherine Aurelia, what was going on in the nineteenth (and into the early twentieth, with Sen. Smoot) was a pogrom. Definitely persecution.....

                  And in every single one of those cases, the people engaging IN that pogrom justified themselves and their actions precisely the way you are doing in this thread. It's an almost concept for concept typical, historical repeat.

                  You don't like Mormonism. I get the impression, from what you write, that you don't much like Mormons, either. That's certainly your right. Arguing against doctrine and practices is also your right. You even have every right to claim that everything done TO us was something we deserved, and that stuff like sending armies and Extermination Orders, and wholesale shooting of all the men in a village and the driving out of an entire people from a land (gee, does that sound familiar to anybody....???) is NOT 'persecution.'

                  And I have the right, as well, to point out that your words and claims are very typical of those who engage in such persecution, who justify it, and who justify pogroms against those who disagree with them, and resent having their words and attitudes named as what they actually are.

                  Those words are generally asterisked out when used in here. But if your target were Jewish, and you said the same things about what was done to THEM over the thousands of years that Christians have been persecuting them, you would be called an antisemite, with all the socially negative and nasty things that go with BEING an antisemite.

                  Now Mormons haven't been persecuted to the extent Jews have. We haven't been around as long, for one thing. However, any Jew would certainly recognize the flavor of what WAS done to us in the nineteenth century. It's certainly not as if the 'Christians' around them didn't TRY hard to match the level of nastiness, right down to a diaspora.

                  This thread, CA, makes me cringe. The attitude expressed within the OP makes me tired, and downright depressed over the human race. We don't change, do we? No matter how much history we live through, how much there is to learn from, we STILL persecute 'the other,' and we STILL find it justifiable to dehumanize, hurt and kill others for no reason other than that they don't believe as we do.

                  .....................................and CA? ONE of the reasons I am a Latter-day saint, just one of them, is that alone among all the Christian churches I have looked at (and I've looked at a lot of 'em) WE have 'freedom of religion,' and toleration of other's beliefs, written into our 'creed,' or Articles of Faith. I mean, if YOU can find something similar in the official belief statements of any other Christian religion, I would appreciate it. I haven't found one.

                  WE do not do what you are justifying.

                  WE do not think that persecuting other people for the 'crime' of disagreeing with is is a good thing, even if they do show up in such numbers as to outvote us.

                  The MMM, believe it or not, is a case in point. Those who did it, once the feds ALLOWED us to go after them, punished the perpetrators, excommunicated them and executed the leader. We do not now, and never have, supported or justified that event, unlike many of you, who have not only justified and excused what was done TO us (as you have done in your OP) but sometimes have wished that they could have participated in it.

                  BTW, .what, precisely, happened to any of the people who killed the men at Haun's Mill? Those who murdered JS and his brother Hyrum? Those who burned MORMON property?

                  Nothing at all. Congratulations. Rewards. bragging rights.

                  You go right on claiming that we deserved everything that was done to us, that everything was just fine and dandy and perfectly acceptable. You just go on and do that.

                  ......................and expose yourself for what you write is...all those words that are expressed with **** when typed in here.
                  When did your cult apologize for Mountain Meadows? Prove that any Christian church ordered violence against Mormons. You can't, you won't, and Mormons just try to pin anything that ever happened to them on Christians, without proof. Rock throwing for instance. Cemetery threats. All baseless anecdotal tales. Do you like the fact that Mr. Testosterone Joe Smith said he'd be a Second Mohammed to America, and that blood would run from the Rockies across the country? Disgusting! Don't talk to me about supposed persecution - you Mormons begged for it by supporting the egomaniac Smith, and such horrible doctrines as Blood Atonement by Danites.
                  Last edited by Catherine Aurelia; 11-09-18, 01:03 PM.
                  Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                    Are you justifying Sidney Rigdon's "Extermination Order?"
                    Sidney Rigdon gave no Extermination Order. You are confusing him with Governor Lilburn Boggs.

                    “Your orders are, therefore, to hasten your operation with all possible speed. The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the state if necessary”
                    Executive Order 44 Gov. Lilburn Boggs

                    This is the closest thing you have shown us, the most inflammatory thing any Mormon has said.

                    ”We take God and all the holy angels to witness this day, that we warn all men in the name of Jesus Christ, to come on us no more forever. For from this hour, we will bear it no more, our rights shall no more be trampled on with impunity. The man or the set of men, who attempts it, does it at the expense of their lives. And that mob that comes on us to disturb us; it shall be between us and them a war of extermination; for we will follow them till the last drop of their blood is spilled, or else they will have to exterminate us: for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses, and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed.”
                    Sydney Rigdon speech given on July 4, 1838.

                    Sydney had no legal authority. He gave no order to kill anyone. No one killed anybody in accordance with anything Sydney said.
                    Governor Boggs ordered the murders of all Mormons across the state. Militias and mobs acting on his orders took arms and murdered thousands, displaced tens of thousands.

                    Your grasp of American history is extraordinarily spotty. This is amply covered in basic 100 and 200 level college courses. You can access them on line.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post

                      When did your [Church] apologize for Mountain Meadows? Prove that any Christian [sect] ordered violence against Mormons. You can't, you won't, and Mormons just try to pin anything that ever happened to them on Christians, without proof. Rock throwing for instance. Cemetery threats. All baseless anecdotal tales.
                      The Church has not apologized for the Kennedy assassination either, and for the same reason. The Church bore no responsibility for the MRM.

                      We can and we have proven that the mob who martyred Joseph Smith was led by a Baptist minister (Levi Williams). We have also shown that the various Missouri mobs included and were often led by the local “christian” pastors and ministers.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dianaiad View Post

                        So....you are justifying the Extermination Order, Haun's Mill, the mob murder of Joseph and his brother Hyrum...because of something some renegades going against the specific orders of the church did TWENTY YEARS LATER?
                        Seems like another case of antis believing that Joseph Smith had a time machine---that would explain how the LDS acted last but somehow "started it."

                        Like when we broke antis' printing press years after they broke ours.

                        And how the BOM could mention sheum decades before it was discovered to be an ancient word for grain.
                        Last edited by NRA-Jeff; 11-09-18, 01:30 PM.
                        ...whenever a person's religious conversation dwells... on the faults of other people's religions, he is in a bad condition-C.S. Lewis

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by NRA-Jeff View Post

                          Seems like another case of antis believing that Joseph Smith had a time machine---that would explain how the LDS acted last but somehow "started it."

                          Like when we broke antis' printing press years after they broke ours.

                          And how the BOM could mention sheum decades before it was discovered to be an ancient word for grain.
                          So, tell us Jeff, do you condemn the Mormon Church for killing innocent men, women and children, whom your high and holy phony priests disarmed, at Mountain Meadows?
                          Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                            The Church has not apologized for the Kennedy assassination either, and for the same reason. The Church bore no responsibility for the MRM.
                            This is very true. On the other hand, the church HAS expressed regret (and everybody but CA calls it an apology). The church has done this several times, actually....and the links have been posted in here many times, as well.

                            Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post
                            We can and we have proven that the mob who martyred Joseph Smith was led by a Baptist minister (Levi Williams). We have also shown that the various Missouri mobs included and were often led by the local “christian” pastors and ministers.
                            ...........and if a call for references for THIS one is made, and you don't have the link ready to hand, I do.

                            I have more than one, actually, but just as a beginning, here's this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levi_Williams

                            If anybody wants more than that from ME, they are going to have to wait for a few days. I won't be here, unless I can boot up my laptop, and that's pretty chancy. Some nurses have problems with people using electronics next to programmable IV machines.

                            .............don't ask me. I never know from day to day whether the rules will let me use it or not.

                            Of course, I predict that the 'no true Christian' thing will be used here. As in, no TRUE Christian would....

                            .........even though the folks who will pull the 'no True Christian' fallacy wouldn't allow US to claim that Mormons who did evil things against the teachings, the rules and the orders of the church are 'no True Mormons."

                            Just watch. It'll happen.

                            (Oh, and I personally would be DELIGHTED if the folks who have a habit of puttling the 'no True Christian' thing would realize just how stupid it is and not do it, even if their motivation is to try to make me look stupid, or as if I were falsely accusing them. It would indeed make my day, my week, my month and my year.)

                            But...just watch. It'll happen.

                            SOMEONE will claim that this Baptist minister was 'no true Christian,' and so .....
                            Last edited by dianaiad; 11-09-18, 05:23 PM.
                            Cet animal est très méchant,
                            Quand on l'attaque il se défend.

                            Translation: "This animal is very bad; when you attack it, it defends itself."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dianaiad View Post

                              You mean the one that was not an order of any sort? (Though you are quite free to find where 'order' is used) where he said that the Mormons didn't want to start anything, that they believed that all people should believe as they wish, but that if they were attacked, they would defend themselves? THAT "Extermination Order," (which, of course, wasn't...) the one the Mormons, even though they WERE attacked , robbed and murdered, never acted on?

                              They didn't defend themselves very well. In fact, they didn't defend themselves at all. So there's nothing TO justify. Nobody did anything about it. One man, making one speech, which the church leaders worried was too bombastic in the first place....and which does NOT issue any sort of 'extermination order,' unlike Bogg's Missouri executive order 44, which WAS official, enforced, and not rescinded until 1976.

                              I do believe that there is only one case where someone became dead at Mormon hands, before the MMM; at the "Battle of Crooked River," where the Mormons were attempting to rescue some kidnapped Mormons, where the Missouri militia fired first at the Mormons who were attempting to negotiate, and in doing so, killed three of the Mormons?

                              Read some history. Not the MRM or Saints Alive or other biased stuff. Just....history. unbiased, not put out by antis, not put out by Mormons. Just...the facts. Read Gov. Ford's book (well, he didn't like the Mormons all that much, but he was pretty disgusted by the other side, too). Read trial transcripts. Read SOMETHING other than stuff that strokes your fur the right way.


                              And for crying out loud, ACTUALLY READ RIGDON'S JULY 4th speech. I gave you the text of the excerpts you love so much, IN CONTEXT, and it simply does not say what you claim it does.
                              Have you read Blood of the Prophets? You should.
                              ~ There is life after mormonism, and it's good! Just stay close to Christ.
                              ~ You can't follow Christ and false prophets at the same time.
                              ~ "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X