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So, Which Mormons Here Will Say Brigham Young was Wrong?

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  • Originally posted by Janice Bower View Post
    They won't believe that B. Young is a false prophet on the basis of his not being omniscient. They hold their prophets to a lesser standard.
    Unlike the Bible which has a 100% accuracy standard.
    I am just a miserable sinner saved by grace, called according to His purposes, made righteous and holy by faith in Jesus and who can now boldly enter the throne room of heaven itself.

    Comment


    • Shouldn't their prophets be held to the HIGHTEST standard, especially when it came to announcing God's plans for them and when making prophetic statements? God held the ancient prophets of old to the HIGHEST standard--why should Mormon "prophets" get a free pass?
      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
      Its easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
        Shouldn't their prophets be held to the HIGHTEST standard, especially when it came to announcing God's plans for them and when making prophetic statements? God held the ancient prophets of old to the HIGHEST standard--why should Mormon "prophets" get a free pass?
        Good question. Any TBMs have an answer?
        I am just a miserable sinner saved by grace, called according to His purposes, made righteous and holy by faith in Jesus and who can now boldly enter the throne room of heaven itself.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by organgrinder View Post

          Good question. Any TBMs have an answer?

          Their answer is a combination of the aftermath of a pepperoni & anchovy pizza and an adaptation of a slogan of Bernie Sanders supporters: FEEL THE BURN!

          It is only after one gets that "Maalox moment" that one can understand their truth behind the contradiction that Bonnie noted:

          Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

          Shouldn't their prophets be held to the HIGHEST standard, especially when it came to announcing God's plans for them and when making prophetic statements? God held the ancient prophets of old to the HIGHEST standard--why should Mormon "prophets" get a free pass?
          Apologetic axiom 3 explains it well:

          3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult
          MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

          1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

          2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

          3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

          4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







          Comment


          • Originally posted by john t View Post


            Their answer is a combination of the aftermath of a pepperoni & anchovy pizza and an adaptation of a slogan of Bernie Sanders supporters: FEEL THE BURN!

            It is only after one gets that "Maalox moment" that one can understand their truth behind the contradiction that Bonnie noted:



            Apologetic axiom 3 explains it well:

            3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult
            We see that third axiom proven on here, again and again...thanks, John.
            "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
            "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
            Its easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
            "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
            "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
            "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

            Comment


            • Well, Lurker, where DID the info about the supposed dust jacket come from? I mean, when we non-Mormons make assertions on here about Smith, or something in yiur church's history,, Mormons usually demand we show where we get the assertions from. We get CFR.

              So, where did that dust jacket info come from?
              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
              Its easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
              "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
              "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Guest View Post
                These are the words of Brigham Young, second false prophet of the Mormon cult:

                ''How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-Day Saints about one doctrine which I revealed to them, and which GOD REVEALED TO ME. Namely, that Adam is our Father and our God''. Deseret News, June 18th, 1873.

                If Adam was not the Mormon god, then what "god" revealed that doctrine to Brigham? Is it the one Mormons here have called a real and powerful god, Satan, who they say is the brother of Jesus and will rule over an everlasting kingdom?

                Was Brigham Young really giving a true revelation, and now the Utahite Mormons are in apostasy as the fundamentalist Mormons (who believe Adam is god) have taught for years? After all, the Utahite Mormons are the very ones who no longer recognize Young's teachings as authoritative.

                If Young was a false teacher, perhaps Rigdon was right, and Young never should have been given the leadership of the cult after Smith's window jump. All the Utahites, therefore, should pack up and move to Pennsylvania (the new gathering place for the false Zion) by the Monongahela River, and become Bickertonites who recognize their descent partially from Rigdon.

                Or, is the whole Mormon cult nothing but an idol-worshiping bunch of heretics who profess to be Christians, but are seeking, instead, to replace Christianity with a bizarre form of polytheism that surpasses Hinduism in the number of gods the Mormon cult believes to exist.

                Rev. 21:18: "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

                I Cor. 10:14: "Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. "

                Adam was a creature, he was never god and never will be, nor will any Mormon here. This is the monstrous lie told by a cult who followed the false prophet Young who taught them that Adam was their ONLY god for twenty-five years. And, the cult still hasn't apologized for this - for after all, we've learned that the Mormon cult never apologizes.


                Bruce R. McConkie (Quorum of the Twelve)

                Now may I say something for your guidance and enlightenment.... As it happens, I am a great admirer of Brigham Young and a great believer in his doctrinal presentations. He was called of God.

                He was guided by the Holy Spirit in his teachings in general. He was a mighty prophet. He led Israel the way the Lord wanted his people led. He built on the foundation laid by the Prophet Joseph. He completed his work and has come on to eternal exaltation.

                Nonetheless, as Joseph Smith so pointedly taught, a prophet is not always a prophet, only when he is acting as such. Prophets are men and they make mistakes. Sometimes they err in doctrine. This is one of the reasons the Lord has given us the Standard Works. They become the standards and rules that govern where doctrine and philosophy are concerned. If this were not so, we would believe one thing when one man was president of the Church and another thing in the days of his successors. Truth is eternal and does not vary. Sometimes even wise and good men fall short in the accurate presentation of what is truth. Sometimes a prophet gives personal views which are not endorsed and approved by the Lord.

                Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel. But, be it known, Brigham Young also taught accurately and correctly, the status and position of Adam in the eternal scheme of things. What I am saying is that Brigham Young contradicted Brigham Young, and the issue becomes one of which Brigham Young we will believe. The answer is we will believe the expressions that accord with the teachings in the Standard Works....

                I think you can give me credit for having a knowledge of the quotations from Brigham Young relative to Adam, and of knowing what he taught under the subject that has become known as the Adam God Theory. President Joseph Fielding Smith said that Brigham Young will have to make his own explanations on the points there involved.... As for me and my house, we will have the good sense to choose between the divergent teachings of the same man and come up with those that accord with what God has set forth in his eternal plan of salvation....

                I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality.... I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in this instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.

                It should be perfectly evident that under our system of church discipline, it would be anticipated that some others besides Brigham Young would pick up some of his statements and echo them. Those who did this, also on other occasions, taught accurately and properly what the true doctrines of the gospel are. I do not get concerned when a good and sound person who, on the over-all, is teaching the truth [yet] happens to err on a particular point and say something in conflict with what he has said himself on a previous occasion. We are all mortal. We are all fallible. We all make mistakes. No single individual all the time is in tune with the Holy Spirit, but I do get concerned when some person or group picks out false statements and makes them the basis of their presentation and theology and thus ends up having a false concept of the doctrine, which in reality, was not in the mind of the person whose quotations they are using.

                Wise gospel students do not build their philosophies of life on quotations of individuals, even though those quotations come from presidents of the Church. Wise people anchor their doctrine on the Standard Works.... There is no need to attempt to harmonize conflicting views when some of the views are out of harmony with the Standard Works. This is what life is all about. The Lord is finding out what we will believe in spite of the allurements of the world or the philosophies of men or the seemingly rational and logical explanations that astute people make.

                We do not solve our problems by getting a statement from the president of the Church or from someone else on a subject. We have been introduced to the gospel; we have the gift of the Holy Ghost; we have the Standards Works and it is our responsibility to get in tune and understand properly what the Lord has revealed and has had us canonize. (From a Letter to Eugene England, BYU Professor, February 19, 1981)
                Credit to scottwoodward (I don't know how to cite the webpage without having it link)
                Last edited by Aaron32; 04-12-19, 09:36 PM. Reason: Removed hyperlink

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Aaron32 View Post

                  Bruce R. McConkie (Quorum of the Twelve)

                  Now may I say something for your guidance and enlightenment.... As it happens, I am a great admirer of Brigham Young and a great believer in his doctrinal presentations. He was called of God.

                  He was guided by the Holy Spirit in his teachings in general. He was a mighty prophet. He led Israel the way the Lord wanted his people led. He built on the foundation laid by the Prophet Joseph. He completed his work and has come on to eternal exaltation.

                  Nonetheless, as Joseph Smith so pointedly taught, a prophet is not always a prophet, only when he is acting as such. Prophets are men and they make mistakes. Sometimes they err in doctrine. This is one of the reasons the Lord has given us the Standard Works. They become the standards and rules that govern where doctrine and philosophy are concerned. If this were not so, we would believe one thing when one man was president of the Church and another thing in the days of his successors. Truth is eternal and does not vary. Sometimes even wise and good men fall short in the accurate presentation of what is truth. Sometimes a prophet gives personal views which are not endorsed and approved by the Lord.

                  Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel. But, be it known, Brigham Young also taught accurately and correctly, the status and position of Adam in the eternal scheme of things. What I am saying is that Brigham Young contradicted Brigham Young, and the issue becomes one of which Brigham Young we will believe. The answer is we will believe the expressions that accord with the teachings in the Standard Works....

                  I think you can give me credit for having a knowledge of the quotations from Brigham Young relative to Adam, and of knowing what he taught under the subject that has become known as the Adam God Theory. President Joseph Fielding Smith said that Brigham Young will have to make his own explanations on the points there involved.... As for me and my house, we will have the good sense to choose between the divergent teachings of the same man and come up with those that accord with what God has set forth in his eternal plan of salvation....

                  I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality.... I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in this instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.

                  It should be perfectly evident that under our system of church discipline, it would be anticipated that some others besides Brigham Young would pick up some of his statements and echo them. Those who did this, also on other occasions, taught accurately and properly what the true doctrines of the gospel are. I do not get concerned when a good and sound person who, on the over-all, is teaching the truth [yet] happens to err on a particular point and say something in conflict with what he has said himself on a previous occasion. We are all mortal. We are all fallible. We all make mistakes. No single individual all the time is in tune with the Holy Spirit, but I do get concerned when some person or group picks out false statements and makes them the basis of their presentation and theology and thus ends up having a false concept of the doctrine, which in reality, was not in the mind of the person whose quotations they are using.

                  Wise gospel students do not build their philosophies of life on quotations of individuals, even though those quotations come from presidents of the Church. Wise people anchor their doctrine on the Standard Works.... There is no need to attempt to harmonize conflicting views when some of the views are out of harmony with the Standard Works. This is what life is all about. The Lord is finding out what we will believe in spite of the allurements of the world or the philosophies of men or the seemingly rational and logical explanations that astute people make.

                  We do not solve our problems by getting a statement from the president of the Church or from someone else on a subject. We have been introduced to the gospel; we have the gift of the Holy Ghost; we have the Standards Works and it is our responsibility to get in tune and understand properly what the Lord has revealed and has had us canonize. (From a Letter to Eugene England, BYU Professor, February 19, 1981)
                  Credit to scottwoodward (I don't know how to cite the webpage without having it link)
                  What a lot of tap dancing, in order to keep from admitting Young was a false prophet and taught false doctrines in their church. God was not so lenient with false prophets in the OT--was He?
                  "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                  "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                  Its easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                  "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                  "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                  "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                    What a lot of tap dancing, in order to keep from admitting Young was a false prophet and taught false doctrines in their church. God was not so lenient with false prophets in the OT--was He?
                    Yes indeed. It is biblically clear how we are to regard those "prophets" who speak in the Lord's name when it is false.
                    I am just a miserable sinner saved by grace, called according to His purposes, made righteous and holy by faith in Jesus and who can now boldly enter the throne room of heaven itself.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by organgrinder View Post

                      Yes indeed. It is biblically clear how we are to regard those "prophets" who speak in the Lord's name when it is false.
                      Yes--we are not to be afraid of them or listen to them.
                      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                      Its easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                        What a lot of tap dancing, in order to keep from admitting Young was a false prophet and taught false doctrines in their church. God was not so lenient with false prophets in the OT--was He?
                        I'm not afraid to admit that Brigham Young taught false doctrine in the Church, so did Joseph Smith. If the belief that (essentially) that 'God will remove the prophet out of his place if he leads the Church astray" I believe Joseph Smith was killed shortly after teaching the King Follett sermon. (Which critics of the church love to set up as the center of our doctrine.)

                        However, regardless of their fallibilities, just as in Old Testament times. God doesn't necessarily punish the people for the weaknesses of the prophets. It does provide the opportunity to sift between the wheat and the tares. The priesthood can be conferred but not active. It doesn't mean the church wasn't restored.

                        Comment



                        • Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                          What a lot of tap dancing, in order to keep from admitting Young was a false prophet and taught false doctrines in their church. God was not so lenient with false prophets in the OT--was He?
                          What about the do-de-do? or the rumba? or the meringue? or the cha-cha?

                          Almost universally, the LDS posters engage in their insipid dance steps to
                          1. evade dealing with the issues about Mormonism, which we bring up
                          2. create implausible explanations for the preposterous things in Mormonism
                          3. childishly call people names like third graders to objectify their opponents
                          4. create fictions about others, and "double down" when their handiwork is exposed
                          5. become drama kings and drama queens to derail the discussion
                          6. post histrionics that happened long ago, and far away as if they have relevance today
                          7. mock a poster's words, and parrot something similar if they are unable to create their own rebuttal
                          Some of them are able to hold logical discussions for a while, but their posts devolve into those sorts of things after a week (or so) of posting sensibly. Those works above, are actually fruits of the darkness in their souls; thus they are to be pitied, not vilified. But some times it is necessary to take a break from being surrounded by such rotten, putrid fruits.That is why I sometimes leave for several weeks at a time.
                          MY FOUR APOLOGETIC AXIOMS

                          1. Any verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time

                          2. We attack lies so others will see the truth; that is proof of our love for all cultists, not our hatred .

                          3. Inconsistency is a tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult

                          4. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire







                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Aaron32 View Post

                            I'm not afraid to admit that Brigham Young taught false doctrine in the Church, so did Joseph Smith. If the belief that (essentially) that 'God will remove the prophet out of his place if he leads the Church astray" I believe Joseph Smith was killed shortly after teaching the King Follett sermon. (Which critics of the church love to set up as the center of our doctrine.)
                            If you are a professing Mormon, and are interested in answering the critics, then you need to familiarize yourself with Mormon revelation and Mormon scripture a bit more, to avoid making serious mistakes in doctrine yourself. You seem to be unfamiliar with this scripture for example:

                            D&C 136:

                            38 Which foundation he [Joseph Smith] did lay, and was faithful; and I took him to myself.
                            39 Many have marveled because of his death; but it was needful that he should seal his testimony with his blood, that he might be honored and the wicked might be condemned.
                            40 Have I not delivered you from your enemies, only in that I have left a witness of my name?


                            That doesn't sound like somebody who was put to death because had incurred the wrath of God for teaching false doctrine.
                            zerinus
                            I am a Mormon!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by john t View Post


                              What about the do-de-do? or the rumba? or the meringue? or the cha-cha?

                              Almost universally, the LDS posters engage in their insipid dance steps to
                              1. evade dealing with the issues about Mormonism, which we bring up
                              2. create implausible explanations for the preposterous things in Mormonism
                              3. childishly call people names like third graders to objectify their opponents
                              4. create fictions about others, and "double down" when their handiwork is exposed
                              5. become drama kings and drama queens to derail the discussion
                              6. post histrionics that happened long ago, and far away as if they have relevance today
                              7. mock a poster's words, and parrot something similar if they are unable to create their own rebuttal
                              Some of them are able to hold logical discussions for a while, but their posts devolve into those sorts of things after a week (or so) of posting sensibly. Those works above, are actually fruits of the darkness in their souls; thus they are to be pitied, not vilified. But some times it is necessary to take a break from being surrounded by such rotten, putrid fruits.That is why I sometimes leave for several weeks at a time.
                              I agree that some do indeed have nice discussions with us. But it is when we confront them with points and Bible verses that they cannot refute, because they are only taught how to defend their "talking points" that they then will revert to doing one or more of the things on your list. Another thing they will do is fall back onto their "testimony" that their church is true, and Smith was a prophet of God. I think I have only seen one poster do this, though. At least it isn't histrionics. But it does show how the LDS folks are indoctrinated to handle questions they don't want to answer.
                              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                              Its easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                              "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                              "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Aaron32 View Post

                                I'm not afraid to admit that Brigham Young taught false doctrine in the Church, so did Joseph Smith. If the belief that (essentially) that 'God will remove the prophet out of his place if he leads the Church astray" I believe Joseph Smith was killed shortly after teaching the King Follett sermon. (Which critics of the church love to set up as the center of our doctrine.)

                                However, regardless of their fallibilities, just as in Old Testament times. God doesn't necessarily punish the people for the weaknesses of the prophets. It does provide the opportunity to sift between the wheat and the tares. The priesthood can be conferred but not active. It doesn't mean the church wasn't restored.
                                Thank you for your reasonable discussion. Okay, you are willing to admit that Smith and Young taught false doctrines. But that made them false prophets. One of Young's most insidious doctrines was the one about Adam being our god. he declared that God had revealed it to him, which means it was a "revelation" from your God. And it was false. Therefore, Young was a false prophet.

                                However, Smith didn't "restore" anything. The church has been in existence since Pentecost. Jesus said His church would never die, that the "gates of hades/hell would NOT prevail against it." According to Smith, it did--which makes Smith a liar and a false prophet. I will believe Jesus Christ in the Bible over Smith any day. So should everyone else.
                                "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                                "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                                Its easy to fool a man, but nearly impossible to convince him he's been fooled. --Mark Twain."
                                "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                                "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                                "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                                Comment

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