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Grace--in LDS theology

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  • Grace--in LDS theology

    Originally posted by Grogan View Post You just claimed such a thing. You cannot earn grace otherwise it's not grace. you can't merit mercy otherwise it's not mercy.


    If God extends His grace for them which do His work--then it can't be anything but grace--unless you are claiming they earn it:

    Case in point:

    Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    So--is God extending His grace of the remission of sins to them which repent and are baptized--an example of grace--or earning the remission of sins?

  • #2
    Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post



    If God extends His grace for them which do His work--then it can't be anything but grace--unless you are claiming they earn it:

    Case in point:

    Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    So--is God extending His grace of the remission of sins to them which repent and are baptized--an example of grace--or earning the remission of sins?
    Mormons don't understand this verse because they HAVE NOT received the gift of the Holy Spirit - and that is proven by reading their posts here. Mormons are unable to grasp what grace is because that is something God shows us, not something coming from the distorted, obtuse, and evil teachings of a witch.
    Christian scholar John MacArthur about Mormonism: “Mormonism is wrong in epic proportions.”

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
      Mormons don't understand this verse because they HAVE NOT received the gift of the Holy Spirit -
      That just further aggravates the theology preached here, IE--

      Acts 5:31-32 ---King James Version (KJV)
      31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
      32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

      That still has God giving His grace to them which obey Him.

      Comment


      • #4

        Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post Mormons don't understand this verse because they HAVE NOT received the gift of the Holy Spirit -
        Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
        That just further aggravates the theology preached here, IE--

        Acts 5:31-32 ---King James Version (KJV)
        31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
        32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

        That still has God giving His grace to them which obey Him.
        Bump for Catherine

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
          That just further aggravates the theology preached here, IE--

          Acts 5:31-32 ---King James Version (KJV)
          31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
          32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

          That still has God giving His grace to them which obey Him.
          Bump for anyone

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
            If God extends His grace for them which do His work--then it can't be anything but grace--unless you are claiming they earn it:

            Case in point:

            Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
            38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

            So--is God extending His grace of the remission of sins to them which repent and are baptized--an example of grace--or earning the remission of sins?
            EDIT

            Here's some other Scriptures (which you obviously reject), to explain it to you:

            Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

            Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

            2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

            Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

            Rom. 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

            Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
            Bump for Catherine
            Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post
            Bump for anyone

            EDIT PER MOD
            You've been refuted.
            Deal with it.
            Accept it and move on.
            Last edited by 4Him; 12-04-18, 11:06 PM.
            "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
            --------------------------------------------------------------------------
            "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
            but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
            -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post



              If God extends His grace for them which do His work--then it can't be anything but grace--unless you are claiming they earn it:

              Case in point:

              Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
              38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

              So--is God extending His grace of the remission of sins to them which repent and are baptized--an example of grace--or earning the remission of sins?
              HOW were the folks at Pentecost able to repent? BY WHAT did they repent?
              "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
              "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
              "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
              "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
              "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                You clearly don't understand the difference between "causation" and "correlation".

                Here's some other Scriptures (which you obviously reject), to explain it to you:

                Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

                Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

                2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

                Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

                Rom. 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

                Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.







                You just can't deal with the fact that your posts just aren't worth responding to, can you?
                Take the chip off your shoulder, okay?
                You've been refuted.
                Deal with it.
                Accept it and move on.
                I think you are correct about not knowing the difference between causation and correlation. Look at post no. 241 in this link:

                https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/ch...sians-2/page17

                The poster answered correctly. But still did NOT "get the point." Which is so very obvious to US.

                Sad, isn't it?

                The only true "grace" in Mormonism is bodily resurrection to immortality and Jesus' paying for Adam's sin. But all other "grace" is dependent upon what they do and how they do all of their "works." THAT grace must be "earned."

                Yet "earned grace" is an oxymoron" if ever there was one....
                Last edited by Bonnie; 12-04-18, 07:29 PM.
                "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
                  Here's some other Scriptures (which you obviously reject), to explain it to you:

                  Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

                  Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

                  2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

                  Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

                  Rom. 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

                  Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
                  I don't reject those scriptures, and no one has claimed eternal life is by works.

                  The LDS believe eternal life comes by God's grace--which goes to them which obey Him:

                  Romans 6:16 ---King James Version (KJV)
                  16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

                  Theo--how do you comport your theology of excluding God giving His salvational grace to them which obey Him--with the scriptural witness of God extending His grace to them which do His works?

                  1 Timothy 4:16 ---King James Version (KJV)
                  16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

                  Pitting scriptures against one another not only fails to make one's point--it renders the Bible an unreliable source of truth.

                  The LDS comport those verses to one another in two ways:

                  1) When Paul uses the terms "works", "works of the Law", "the law"--he is usually referring to certain rituals under the Mosaic law--such as circumcision.

                  2) Paul believed it was God's grace which saves--not works of any kind, in and by themselves.

                  So--how do you comport the verses to your theology?

                  Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
                  38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.




                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                    HOW were the folks at Pentecost able to repent? BY WHAT did they repent?
                    There are two things which enabled all to repent:

                    1) The Atonement of Jesus Christ for all men.

                    2) The agency of man to choose to follow God.

                    So--how does one fit God extending His salvational grace to them which repent and are water baptized--with the theology preached here?

                    Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
                    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                    That's what one will find being taught in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dberrie2000 View Post

                      There are two things which enabled all to repent:

                      1) The Atonement of Jesus Christ for all men.

                      2) The agency of man to choose to follow God.

                      So--how does one fit God extending His salvational grace to them which repent and are water baptized--with the theology preached here?

                      Acts 2:38 ---King James Version (KJV)
                      38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

                      That's what one will find being taught in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
                      The unregenerated man canNOT choose to believe in Jesus as Savior, for he is DEAD--not wounded but DEAD--in trespasses and sins, and BY NATURE, a child of wrath. He can no more choose Jesus on his own than a corpse can choose to raise itself up to life.

                      Try again. HOW were those at Pentecost able to repent of their sins? BY WHAT did they do so? Same thing that enabled Abe to obey God.
                      "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                      "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                      "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                      "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                      "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bonnie View Post

                        The unregenerated man canNOT choose to believe in Jesus as Savior, for he is DEAD--not wounded but DEAD--in trespasses and sins, and BY NATURE, a child of wrath. He can no more choose Jesus on his own than a corpse can choose to raise itself up to.
                        You are simply wrong and have misunderstood the word of the Lord.

                        All men have been invited to believe on the Lord and all men have the right, the capacity, and the freedom to so choose....until they exercise that freedom. They might choose to seek out the Spirit of God in which case they will find Him. They might choose to block themselves off from the Spirit. Having chosen to do that they are left to the buffeting of the adversary and eventually* will harden their hearts to the point that they cannot be redeemed.

                        In Colossians and Ephesians Paul uses the term ďdead in your sinsĒ metaphorically. Itís obviously a metaphor since the people he was talking to were still alive at the time. Your mistake is the logical fallaacy of argument by analogy. You are taking the metaphor that Paul used and insisting that because the two things are alike in some ways they must be alike in all ways. No metaphor works that way. If two things are alike in every particular they are not two different things but the same thing. A metaphor is the comparison of similarities between two things that are different (or it isnít a metaphor).

                        In this metaphor you know that life and death are binary. One must be either the one or the other. But sinful and godly are not binary. They are a spectrum. You have never met the man who was so completely shut off from the Spirit of God, so ripened in his sins that it was beyond the power of the Holy Ghost to reach him. And you have never met a man who was indwelt with the Spirit to such a degree that sin was no longer a possibility for him.

                        But the scriptures speak plainly of both; a man dead in his sins and a regenerated man who had no more disposition to do evil but to do good continually. The scriptures were talking about the end result for taking one path or the other. Eventually a man will come to the point where he has no more disposition to do evil but to do good continually. Eventually a man can become so hardened that the Spirit of God has no hold on him whatsoever and he finds himself completely in the power of the devil. But youíve never met anyone who has come to the end of either road.

                        * Itís important to note that the decision, either for the Lord or for the adversary, is not a singular event. The decision is made and reversed and made anew a thousand times a day. Each time the decision is made (in either direction) it makes it a bit easier to walk that chosen path and a bit harder to reverse course. Reinforce that decision enough times and a man finds it impossible to reverse course by himself. Follow that same path long enough and the opposing voice eventually ceases and the end becomes fixed and unalterable. A man can follow God and eventually find that Satan has no more power over him. He has no more disposition to do evil but to do good continually, Or a man can follow Satan with such diligence that he comes to a point where the Spirit of God has no power to stir within him a desire for repentance or forgiveness. Such a man is, at that point, a true son of perdition and is irredeemable.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JustaLurker View Post

                          You are simply wrong and have misunderstood the word of the Lord.

                          All men have been invited to believe on the Lord and all men have the right, the capacity, and the freedom to so choose....until they exercise that freedom. They might choose to seek out the Spirit of God in which case they will find Him. They might choose to block themselves off from the Spirit. Having chosen to do that they are left to the buffeting of the adversary and eventually* will harden their hearts to the point that they cannot be redeemed.

                          In Colossians and Ephesians Paul uses the term “dead in your sins” metaphorically. It’s obviously a metaphor since the people he was talking to were still alive at the time. Your mistake is the logical fallaacy of argument by analogy. You are taking the metaphor that Paul used and insisting that because the two things are alike in some ways they must be alike in all ways. No metaphor works that way. If two things are alike in every particular they are not two different things but the same thing. A metaphor is the comparison of similarities between two things that are different (or it isn’t a metaphor).

                          In this metaphor you know that life and death are binary. One must be either the one or the other. But sinful and godly are not binary. They are a spectrum. You have never met the man who was so completely shut off from the Spirit of God, so ripened in his sins that it was beyond the power of the Holy Ghost to reach him. And you have never met a man who was indwelt with the Spirit to such a degree that sin was no longer a possibility for him.

                          But the scriptures speak plainly of both; a man dead in his sins and a regenerated man who had no more disposition to do evil but to do good continually. The scriptures were talking about the end result for taking one path or the other. Eventually a man will come to the point where he has no more disposition to do evil but to do good continually. Eventually a man can become so hardened that the Spirit of God has no hold on him whatsoever and he finds himself completely in the power of the devil. But you’ve never met anyone who has come to the end of either road.

                          * It’s important to note that the decision, either for the Lord or for the adversary, is not a singular event. The decision is made and reversed and made anew a thousand times a day. Each time the decision is made (in either direction) it makes it a bit easier to walk that chosen path and a bit harder to reverse course. Reinforce that decision enough times and a man finds it impossible to reverse course by himself. Follow that same path long enough and the opposing voice eventually ceases and the end becomes fixed and unalterable. A man can follow God and eventually find that Satan has no more power over him. He has no more disposition to do evil but to do good continually, Or a man can follow Satan with such diligence that he comes to a point where the Spirit of God has no power to stir within him a desire for repentance or forgiveness. Such a man is, at that point, a true son of perdition and is irredeemable.
                          Of course it is a metaphor, meaning SPIRITUALLY dead. But the SPIRITUALLY DEAD cannot make themselves SPIRITUALLY ALIVE, any more than the physically dead can make themselves physically alive--BOTH require an outside Source to be made alive

                          Please read the followimg:

                          Ephesians 2 English Standard Version (ESV)

                          By Grace Through Faith

                          2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedienceó 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.[b] 4 But[c] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christóby grace you have been savedó 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
                          Read this carefully. WHO made us alive, together with Christ? WHO raised us up and created us in heavenly places? Note, that the verb are passive tense.

                          And do note that Paul says we were "by nature" children of wrath. BY NATURE. That nature is not something WE can overcome our own, because BY NATURE we are spiritually dead in our sins.

                          People can Try to do their best on their own. But if they do so outside of Jesus Christ, then they're still spiritually DEAD. They can do NOTHING to raise themselves up to salvation. Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I AM, you will die 8n your sins."
                          We can do NOTHING to overcome our inborn sinful nature ON OUR OWN. It requires being born again, and being made a new creation, and that can ONLY be done by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord.
                          "I am tired of being treated like a mushroom--they keep me in the dark and feed me manure!" (reasons why a Mormon was leaving the LDS church)
                          "What people don't realize is how much religion costs. They think faith is a big electric blanket, when of course, it is the cross."--Flannery O'Connor
                          "I am a Missouri Synod Lutheran--NOT REFORMED/CALVINIST. PLEASE learn the difference."
                          "The truth may hurt for a little while, but a lie hurts forever."--anonymous
                          "If Jesus isn't THE WAY, then there is nothing else."--Bob

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                            Of course it is a metaphor, meaning SPIRITUALLY dead. But the SPIRITUALLY DEAD cannot make themselves SPIRITUALLY ALIVE, any more than the physically dead can make themselves physically alive--BOTH require an outside Source to be made alive

                            Please read the followimg:

                            Read this carefully. WHO made us alive, together with Christ? WHO raised us up and created us in heavenly places? Note, that the verb are passive tense.

                            And do note that Paul says we were "by nature" children of wrath. BY NATURE. That nature is not something WE can overcome our own, because BY NATURE we are spiritually dead in our sins.

                            People can Try to do their best on their own. But if they do so outside of Jesus Christ, then they're still spiritually DEAD. They can do NOTHING to raise themselves up to salvation. Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I AM, you will die 8n your sins."
                            We can do NOTHING to overcome our inborn sinful nature ON OUR OWN. It requires being born again, and being made a new creation, and that can ONLY be done by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord.
                            The only real distinctions between our two points of view is vocabulary and emphasis.

                            We emphasize the efforts a man must make, the actions a man must take to access the Atonement and benefit by the grace Jesus provides.
                            You emphasize our dependence on the Savior and His essential role, without which none of our individual efforts would matter.

                            I donít know what the exact perfect emaphasis is but choosing between yours and ours, I can tell you which one works and which one doesnít. Our way produces a body of believers that are dedicated to following the Savior in every particular. Your way fosters a body of believers plagued by a reliance on Cheap Grace.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bonnie View Post
                              The unregenerated man canNOT choose to believe in Jesus as Savior,.
                              Of course he can. Anyone can choose to follow Jesus Christ at any time. That's what the Atonement did for all mankind--it justified all men of life--as a free gift to all men:

                              Romans 5:18--- King James Version (KJV)
                              18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

                              That's why some choose Jesus---so they can be regenerated.

                              Regeneration was comported with water baptism in the theology of the Early Church Fathers:


                              ST. IRENAEUS (c. A.D. 190)

                              "And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean,by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."(Fragment 34)

                              RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT (c. A.D. 221)

                              But you will perhaps say,"What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God,the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off,

                              ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200 - 258 A.D.)

                              [When] they receive also theBaptismof the Church...then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God...since it is written, "Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Letters 71[72]:1)[It] behooves those to be baptized...so that they are prepared, in the lawful and true and only Baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God...because it is written, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."(Letters 72[73]:21)

                              Bonnie--people choose whether they want to be baptized.

                              Comment

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